What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[qwerty123456]

Primitive lifeform =/= a race. The trolls evolved from more primitive animals much like the humans on Earth. Whereas the other races evolved from other existing races. The trolls came into being by the Well of Eternity accelerating evolution in the nearby fauna. The elementals are hardly a race. The Old Gods are literally just Void Lord constructs. The Titan creations were basically robots so I wouldn't call them a race either.

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No they are not. That's like saying all humans are actually vrykul. Contrary to the various troll variants, the elves are an entirely new race that evolved from trolls that lived very close to the Well of Eternity. Calling them a troll variant is wildly incorrect.

Cavemen are considered primitive and even if they were just blue/green rats one day and instantly trolls the next day, it doesn't mean there wasn't life or species before it.

The fact that Blizzard calls it evolution and not rat instantly transforming into trolls should make you realize there is stuff inbetween x and y.

And you hand waving elementals and shit because you personally don't believe them to be a race doesn't magically make then not one.

Also notice how trolls vary by tribe? If they didnt evolve then they all should look like Proto Zandalari. Just because they keep the name troll it doesn't make them more special then the elves. It's even more funny that without the Titans intervention trolls would have never existed.

[Nadiru]

My guess is he's downplayed and not mentioned in WoW because Blizzard doesn't want to tell the story of anything impure having to do with the Alliance, which is a shame, considering Arthas is one of the most popular characters ever.

He's not mentioned in WoW for several reasons, none of which has to do with wanting to dodge responsibility:

1) Lordaeron is defunct in WoW for many years
2) The Alliance of Lordaeron is not the Alliance of Stormwind
3) Garithos' story arc has been over for many years, and his arc culminated in him getting killed for his bigotry
4) While Garithos' story arc is a defining moment for the Horde, it doesnt make sense for a rando Grand Marshal from the Undercity to weigh heavily on the mind of Anduin, Varian, or even Lady Prestor.

[Saltysquidoon]

Not according to present-day standards such as the Geneva conventions or the generally accepted laws of war, which generally prohibit collective punishment against civilian populations. Even the WW2 internment of Japanese Americans is seen is controversial, and they were only temporarily moved. Of course pogroms have happened throughout history, but you don't often see moral people arguing that actions such as the genocide and forced deportations of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was justified just because they were accused of helping the enemy (in that particular case the Russians).
Considering that WoW in general seems to conform to modern day moral standards, especially in the Alliance, a deliberate pogrom against a civilian population native to a neutral city should definitely be considered wrong even by in-universe standards.

That's a very broad brush. Obviously blizzard's writing is overall simplistic and they try and write to as broad an audience as possible by applying modern sensibilities to most characters. But it's reaching a bit to suggest that the alliance as an early enlightenment tier civilisation is written (in-universe or out) as adhering strictly to post WWII rules of conduct, even Velen has killed captives in the past.

And calling the Sunreavers enemies is a bit of a stretch. They were a mostly civilian population in a neutral city in which they had lived since before the Horde even existed. In fact at the time of the purge they were citizens of this neutral city just as much as the humans and high elves, not guests or recent arrivals. Some had indeed betrayed their neutrality, but that doesn't justify viewing the whole community as enemies.

The sunreavers had twice helped Garrosh in the immediate past, once was to destroy Jaina's city-state, the idea she wouldn't view them as enemies is laughable. You're also not viewing the situation in context, Jaina (who was leading the pogrom) viewed them as having breached their neutrality by aiding the horde (irrespective of how many had actually aided them) in said destruction.

[FelPlague]

well even that can be argued that it was all a trick by onyxia ploting against them,its not like baby anduin or bolvar decided to be dicks and not pay them

Varian tried ot get them to pay, but the council of nobles refused, as wel the city was being rebuilt, the kind had equal power with the council of nobles, so yeah he couldnt get them to pay...

[eurojust]

One glaringly evil thing done by Alliance characters in my opinion is Tyrande and Malfurion letting Illidan go after he'd slaughtered at least 3 villages of night elves in WC3, as well as a ton of Maiev's Watchers in the Tomb of Sargeras, all of whom were only there to clean up Tyrande's mistake, just because he'd supposedly atoned by rescuing Tyrande, one night elf Malfurion cares about. I'd be pretty pissed if I were a night elf citizen and found out my family wasn't going to be avenged because Malfurion and Tyrande never lift a finger unless the other is in danger. Leyara was completely justified in her anger toward Malfurion in Cataclysm. So obnoxious when Malfurion, Anduin, etc. preach about not giving in to your hate and anger, then the SECOND it's them or a loved one who's been wronged, they're thirsty for blood (Malfurion thought 3 villages + Maiev's Watchers + Tyrande = Illidan's execution, but 3 villages + Watchers - Tyrande = Illidan's an okay guy but he's banished).

Luckily it seems Tyrande finally cares about those she was supposed to protect, so ignoring her past, I'd side with her in Shadowlands. Pity that justified anger is usually a death sentence in WoW and she'll no doubt become a curly mustached villain with no moral greyness to her actions whatsoever. The Horde got their licks in and murdered her people (Sylvanas, but the Horde went along with it and didn't depose her right then and there), but because Anduin says the Horde is forgiven, she's supposed to be a bad person for wanting justice.

I 100% agree with you except the part about Tyrande finally caring about her people.

[Koryn123]

I 100% agree with you except the part about Tyrande finally caring about her people.

Dunno, she seems to be out for the Horde's blood to avenge them. I look forward to her arc in Ardenweald and hope she'll be haunted by their ghosts to drive her even further toward wanting justice. I would be insanely pleased if Tyrande basically came to the same mind as the Watchers and she ordered them into greater prominence in Night Elf society. An elite fighting force that aren't pushovers in the slightest and take their duty incredibly seriously, with a leader who does the same. The sentinels might be about duty, but their leaders Malfurion and Tyrande in the past weren't much to sneeze at. I remember in the Wolfheart novel I think, Maiev wanted to kill Tyrande and Malfurion, take over the night elves, and basically turn every Sentinel into a Warden/Watcher like her so she could protect the night elves and destroy the Horde for encroaching on their lands for so long without challenge from Tyrande or Malfurion who'd retreated to Teldrassil. The idea of a WC3-style Night Elf race who didn't take crap from anybody has always been very appealing to me after seeing how ineffectual and passive they've been in WoW until the War of Thorns cinematic where Malfurion says the night elves are coming to reclaim Darkshore.

[Steelangel]

The Alliance of Lordaeron helped the quel'dorei genocide the forest trolls in the Troll Wars.

And the PCs both Alliance and Horde do a hell of a lot of troll genocide in leveling.

[Goundin]

The Alliance has never done anything wrong in its entire history either legal or illegal.

*CinemaSins laugh*Hahahahahahahahaha. *inhales* Hahahahaha. You're seriously joking, right. You can't be serious and think the Alliance has never done anything wrong.

[Tharivor]

That's a very broad brush. Obviously blizzard's writing is overall simplistic and they try and write to as broad an audience as possible by applying modern sensibilities to most characters. But it's reaching a bit to suggest that the alliance as an early enlightenment tier civilisation is written (in-universe or out) as adhering strictly to post WWII rules of conduct, even Velen has killed captives in the past.

I mean we're supposed to find Theramore and Taurajo abhorrent precisely because of civilians lost their homes, despite the two being very much on the frontline of the war. With that kind of morality in play, I can't see how a pogrom against a civilian population in their homes in a neutral city is supposed to be justified. Particularly since its preceded by a whole quest line about how such an action against the Sunreavers would be wrong, narrated by Jaina herself when she was a bit more stable.

In any case a negative attitude towards ethnic pogroms and "purges" in general is not a minutiae of post-WW2 legality but the sort of sentiment that one can find in any broad-brush modern morality. I think its disingenuous to suggest that WoW's general adherence to modern sensibilities wouldn't include a negative assessment of such actions. The faction war in particular is one area where WoW is generally consistent that we're supposed to be applying more modern than medieval standards (otherwise Sylvanas and Garrosh suddenly become a whole lot less evil).

The sunreavers had twice helped Garrosh in the immediate past, once was to destroy Jaina's city-state, the idea she wouldn't view them as enemies is laughable. You're also not viewing the situation in context, Jaina (who was leading the pogrom) viewed them as having breached their neutrality by aiding the horde (irrespective of how many had actually aided them) in said destruction.

But that's exactly whats wrong- viewing an entire civilian population as having violated their right to stay in their homes purely because of the actions of a few. Jaina is not stupid or evil enough not to be expected to know how wrong this is. She herself explains to Anduin that the Sunreavers have just as much right to call the city home as she does, and that forcing them from their homes would be wrong since they've been with the city from the very beginning. Its understandable that she's angry at the betrayal, but it doesn't justify an act that fits more as blind vengeance against an entire ethnic group than a rational counter-measure to a potential threat.

By both conventional morality (even without resorting to things like the Geneva convention, most people would consider a pogrom against civilians to drive out an ethnic group from their homes to be wrong) and the standards that the devs clearly want us to hold the factions to (hence why we're supposed to be horrified by Theramore, saddened by Taurajo, disgusted by Brennadam, ect.) the purge of Dalaran is an abhorrent pogrom.

[Minikin]

u serious ?
Draenei : literally cause the extinction of millions of billions of life forms in their escape from BL to stay alive, knowing very well they damning everywhere they go, instead of stay and fight like their HD version literally did, heck even Dreanor they stayed for 300 years not telling orcs anything, not to mention that they look exactly like demons yet don't tell anything (most their race is pure evil eredar)
Nelf : blowing up the world, wipe out troll tribes to take over their land (ignoring the fact they evolved from trolls, they refuse it), attack orcs on sight because how dare they try to stay alive and cut trees so their kids don't die from weather effects
Gnomes : nothing i guess major, they are a joke even from alliance pov
Dwarfs : the dwarf tribe that digged tauren remains in Barrens, entire AV deal which alliance flat out admit they invading it to take it
Humans : the creme of cream, their list is massive, everything they did they see it right since they are light chosen and never do mistakes, their favorite hobby is basically attempting genocide against any race they feel weaker, that list include belfs (twice), goblins of kezan for just existing, darkspear trolls for just exist in their own home in island in middle of ocean!, forsaken for just exist, trolls of all kind to take over their lands
Ironic because high elf still kissing alliance a88 the genocide against amani trolls is on high elf hands, even if blood elf are the one living in quel'thalas, but as long high elfs insist they aren't belfs, it is on their hands

The only thing correct in this wall of text is the troll island getting shelled and the dwarves.

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The Alliance typically follows the rules of the Kirin Tor.

Got a source for this? Or is this another one of those "I believe so, think so, maybe, yea" factoids.

[Sharby]

i think its the other way around.

alliance crap is placed in such a way that they always get away with the "wellllllll teckNickalllyyiieeee....weee diddnnnt"
and
horde crap is placed such that every horde action feels like using a hydrogen bomb to kill a fly.

The thing is that there just is nothing that Alliance does that could be considered equal with the actions of the Horde morally, there just isn't. Even by modern standards the Alliance still isn't really that disagreeable.


The conversation should be centered on why the Alliance is written to be scot-free, not trying to twist things that writers themselves wrote to be morally good into a 'but actually.' Which is literally what's happening in this thread.

[Minikin]

The thing is that there just is nothing that Alliance does that could be considered equal with the actions of the Horde morally, there just isn't. Even by modern standards the Alliance still isn't really that disagreeable.


The conversation should be centered on why the Alliance is written to be scot-free, not trying to twist things that writers themselves wrote to be morally good into a 'but actually.' Which is literally what's happening in this thread.

I know. Im just saying these threads always devolve into finger pointing cuz of the horde being villain batted and the alliance pigeon holes into world police.

Some ppl post as per the thread specific to the crap alliance does. But some go all faction crazy and start comparing the two. Which, as you have already said, is currently impossible due to the massive difference in the scale of what the horde has in its baggage and what the alliance has in its closet.

[Saltysquidoon]

I mean we're supposed to find Theramore and Taurajo abhorrent precisely because of the killing of civilians, despite the two being very much on the frontline of the war. With that kind of morality in play, I can't see how a pogrom against a civilian population in their homes in a neutral city is supposed to be justified. Particularly since its preceded by a whole quest line about how such an action against the Sunreavers would be wrong, narrated by Jaina herself when she was a bit more stable.

Jaina's plan was to imprison them, that's a world away from Theramore. Hell if she went into the violet hold and personally strangled every survivor to death that's still a world away from Theramore in basically every context imaginable.
Also, it's pretty clear that this point Jaina was not neutral, Dalaran and the Kirin tor, as a result, was not going to be neutral and she did not view the sunreavers as neutral (and in her defence, some unknown number were in fact not neutral).

My point is not that Jaina wasn't lusting for vengeance or that leading a pogrom is a nice thing to do. My point is imprisoning an ethnic and political faction which has an unknown number of agents actively working for a government you are actively at war with is one of the least bad options she had available and its certainly neither 'heinous' or 'evil'.
At the end of the day Jaina was formally returning to the alliance her and intention was to formally return dalaran to the alliance. The Sunreavers as a political entity were aligned with the horde, blood elves as an ethnic group were aligned with the horde. The alliance was in open war with the horde, a defensive war at that, against horde aggression. I mean really her only options were to let them flee, imprison them or kill them and it was vareesa who ordered an end to the fleeing and the murder.

As for any claim the sunreavers had on the city, sorry but war's a sonofabitch (especially when your government causes it). Irrespective of how personally neutral you may be if a war suddenly breaks out (or you ignore the signs or it randomly comes to your city) if you're a member of the opposing country/race/faith/political party/whatever behind enemy lines your choice is to flee or at best be detained.

[Kallisto]

He's not mentioned in WoW for several reasons, none of which has to do with wanting to dodge responsibility:

1) Lordaeron is defunct in WoW for many years
2) The Alliance of Lordaeron is not the Alliance of Stormwind
3) Garithos' story arc has been over for many years, and his arc culminated in him getting killed for his bigotry
4) While Garithos' story arc is a defining moment for the Horde, it doesnt make sense for a rando Grand Marshal from the Undercity to weigh heavily on the mind of Anduin, Varian, or even Lady Prestor.

Alliance of Lordaeron is the Alliance of Stormwind. Blue posts, Metzen, Chronicles, the game. They all say the same thing. There has been only 1 alliance and multiple hordes.

[cparle87]

The purge of Dalaran wasn't a purge. The Alliance only attacked those that refused to leave and attacked them first. It even shows Jaiana teleporting people not slaughtering them. And as we see later on Aethas did know about the theft and did nothing to stop it. He broke his ties to Dalaran first by siding with Garrosh.

So. You found a city. You live in it for thousands of years. Your people are routinely on its ruling council. And some girl with less than four decades to her says that you and your entire race are no longer welcome in a city you build and that only exists because of your people. Why? Because one person sided with someone she didn't like and therefore you're all guilty. Imagine all the Founding Fathers are still alive with their whole extended families, great grandchildren and all. One of the great grandchildren does something bad. So the Army goes around rounding up everyone and telling them to leave America or be killed.

Also, I have no idea what you're trying to say about Talanji? How was Blizz lazy? She was already an incredibly powerful loa priestess when we first met her. She didn't go rags to riches in a few storylines like Yrel did.

[ZazuuPriest]

3 times. After the second war, after MoP, and BFA.

first of all, after MoP the alliance still couldn't have taken the horde, the alliance on exists because the horde wills it
same story with BFA, the alliance only exists because Sylvanas let them survive.
During the second war when the horde was retreating to the Dark Portal Turalyon slaughtered them even though they had already been beaten... some white night paladin he was.

[Saltysquidoon]

So. You found a city.

Dalaran was a human state founded during the twilight of Arathor, High elves did not help found it nor were they members of the kirin-tor until the human mages reckless use of magic started attracting demons.

I'm not saying anything else in your post was wrong or that the elves don't shave some claim to dalaran but it was absolutely a human kingdom.

first of all, after MoP the alliance still couldn't have taken the horde, the alliance on exists because the horde wills it
same story with BFA, the alliance only exists because Sylvanas let them survive.
During the second war when the horde was retreating to the Dark Portal Turalyon slaughtered them even though they had already been beaten... some white night paladin he was.

Who would do somthing like that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?"

[mickybrighteyes]

The only thing correct in this wall of text is the troll island getting shelled and the dwarves.

The human one is a bit of a half true. They're prolly saying 2 genocides on elves because of the purge of dalaran and Garithos and his asshattery. Goblin intro DID have SI:7 (who was trying to grab Thrall in a totally not underhanded way) blasting what was left of KEzan's survivors to the depths and then killing them on sight when discovered on the lost isles.


As for the draenei and night elves... their bullshit really can't be argued as "alliance" actions when they don't take place within the alliance. Though it really is awkward how under velen's precognitive based understanding and future sight... how the hell they have no blame in leading Kil'jaeden to Draenor to cause the events to unfold.

[ZazuuPriest]

Dalaran was a human state founded during the twilight of Arathor, High elves did not help found it nor were they members of the kirin-tor until the human mages reckless use of magic started attracting demons.

I'm not saying anything else in your post was wrong or that the elves don't shave some claim to dalaran but it was absolutely a human kingdom.


Who would do somthing like that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?"

i detect no lies

[Tharivor]

Jaina's plan was to imprison them, that's a world away from Theramore. Hell if she went into the violet hold and personally strangled every survivor to death that's still a world away from Theramore in basically every context imaginable.
Also, it's pretty clear that this point Jaina was not neutral, Dalaran and the Kirin tor, as a result, was not going to be neutral and she did not view the sunreavers as neutral (and in her defence, some unknown number were in fact not neutral).

My point is not that Jaina wasn't lusting for vengeance or that leading a pogrom is a nice thing to do. My point is imprisoning an ethnic and political faction which has an unknown number of agents actively working for a government you are actively at war with is one of the least bad options she had available and its certainly neither 'heinous' or 'evil'.
At the end of the day Jaina was formally returning to the alliance her and intention was to formally return dalaran to the alliance. The Sunreavers as a political entity were aligned with the horde, blood elves as an ethnic group were aligned with the horde. The alliance was in open war with the horde, a defensive war at that, against horde aggression. I mean really her only options were to let them flee, imprison them or kill them and it was vareesa who ordered an end to the fleeing and the murder.

As for any claim the sunreavers had on the city, sorry but war's a sonofabitch (especially when your government causes it). Irrespective of how personally neutral you may be if a war suddenly breaks out (or you ignore the signs or it randomly comes to your city) if you're a member of the opposing country/race/faith/political party/whatever behind enemy lines your choice is to flee or at best be detained.

There is no possible context, except one in which we are expected to hold Jaina to medieval standards of morality, in which leading a pogrom like this was not entirely immoral. Even going by the "its an Alliance city now" logic its still unjustifiable. She did not attempt to negotiate with the Sunreavers to allow some of the civilians willing to reconcile with the Alliance to stay, or if that was impossible at least give some time for those who wanted to leave a newly Alliance city with their possessions to do so (after which you could argue if they chose to stay its fair game). Instead in a single impulsive moment she started a violent pogrom to forcibly imprison all Blood Elves in the city, resulting in a slew of entirely preventable deaths and the leaving the survivors as refugees with nothing but the robes on their backs.

We're not talking about a group of infiltrators who should rightly expect to be driven out at a moments notice, but a population of Dalaran citizens who only moments before were living comfortably in a neutral city they had called home for 2000 years. With a single diktat Jaina stripped them of their citizenship, seized all of their homes, possessions and livelihoods and then forcibly imprisoned beneath the city- they weren't even allowed to flee lest they take some of their own possessions with them. At the very least Jaina owed them this much considering that only seconds ago they were full legal citizens of the city, and could hardly have been expected to see what was coming. In what world is a civilian shopkeeper trying to defend their home and livelihood the bad guy in this scenario?

"War's a sonofabitch" is a great meme for justifying Garrosh or Sylvanas but doesn't work very well with the Alliance that's supposed to be the good guys of the conflict. If you're trying to defend an action as "not evil" then simply saying "its war" is not a very good attempt- all that seems to imply is that it is evil, but you think this kind of evil is justified in a wartime scenario. Which like I said earlier has plenty of real-world precedents which I think most people would be uncomfortable endorsing.