Potential Class Hype

[Triceron]

You're saying there's no classes in WoW that allow instant respawns or health refills? That's pretty much what losing mech form and having to run around as a pilot in order to hopefully regain your mech would do.

None that are built into a class mechanic as a passive trait. All instant respawns and health refills are active abilities, not passives that prevent death.

Even an evasion mechanic like Feign Death doesn't just give Hunters a second chance at life. You need to actively use the ability.

The vehicle mechanic you're suggesting is another lifebar entirely. It's not anywhere remotely the same as an instant rez or a full heal. Even Druid or Demon Hunter forms would be the closest comparable mechanic, and they don't act as secondary lifebars. You have the choice to go back into your base humanoid form and have access to different abilities, it's not a mechanic that's forced on the class as some sort of built in weakness.

[Teriz]

Not that any which are automatic. All instant respawns and health refills are active abilities, not passives that prevent death.

Again where did I say it was passive/automatic? I said it was an active ability, and the tank option to get the mech back more quickly could have multiple downsides.

If you're talking about the "pilot" form, that form should be squishy and relatively easy to kill in PvP. No different than a Shaman reincarnation or a Paladin's Lay on Hands. At least in those cases, the Shaman and Paladin retain their full ability set, resistances, and armor.

If you think about it, the additional life is just another type of damage mitigation.

[Triceron]

If you think about it, the additional life is just another type of damage mitigation.

It either is a type of damage mitigation, or it's not. Another separate lifebar for the vehicle is not damage mitigation, it's a separate lifebar.

For it to simply be 'another type of damage mitigation' it should abide by the rules already laid out by WoW for Forms. You get some stat boosts and access to new abilities, but you aren't given another lifebar for it.

One of the issues with vehicles having lifebars is the fact that it would be considered a different entity from the 'Pilot' form, since that is how WoW works with Vehicles. This means you lose targetting if the pilot decides to 'shift forms'. So Hunters and Rogues have this type of mechanic, what's so bad about it right? Healers, that's what. Losing vehicles would force healers to lose targetting as well, making it very difficult to heal someone who is 'really good at managing their cooldowns' because they are constantly shifting life bars throughout the duration of a fight.

Healers aren't affected by a Druid or Demon Hunter shifting forms, they aren't affected by Rogues going Stealth or Hunters feigning death. This would affect Healers targetting Tinkers that are shifting in and out of Vehicles, and how healing and buffs would go off on the different 'lifebars'. Not just for the purpose of healing the Tinker, but potentially in wasting mana being cast on a lifebar that goes away after shifting into a form.

And if this is a *true* vehicle form that can't be healed by Healers, then we're talking about another level of unbalanceable factors to Arena PVP that will affect all comps and Healing meta. Would the Tinker's vehicle simply be self-sustaining that requires no heals? That would make Healers have more mana since they don't ever have to split-focus heals or worry about the Tinker. Yet the Pilot mode is super vulnerable? Well now the Healer has to reserve attention to a Tinker at all times even though they will not be healing them, making the gameplay very unintuitive and not very fun to heal.

[Teriz]

It either is a type of damage mitigation, or it's not. Another separate lifebar for the vehicle is not damage mitigation, it's a separate lifebar.

For it to simply be 'another type of damage mitigation' it should abide by the rules already laid out by WoW for Forms. You get some stat boosts and access to new abilities, but you aren't given another lifebar for it.

During WoD, part of Guardian Druid's mitigation was a massive HP pool. So yes, life and hit points are a form of mitigation.

One of the issues with vehicles losing lifebars is the fact that it would be considered a different entity from the 'Pilot' form, since that is how WoW works with Vehicles. This means you lose targetting if the pilot decides to 'shift forms'. So Hunters and Rogues have this type of mechanic, what's so bad about it right? Healers, that's what. Losing vehicles would force healers to lose targetting as well, making it very difficult to heal someone who is 'really good at managing their cooldowns' because they are constantly shifting life bars throughout the duration of a fight. This doesn't affect a Druid or Demon Hunter shifting forms, this doesn't affect Rogues going Stealth or Hunters feigning death. This would affect Tinkers shifting in and out of Vehicles, and how healing would go off on the different 'lifebars'.

The Tinker would have a single life bar in mech form, and a single life bar in pilot form. If they're manually hopping in and out of mech form, it should be like druids in that both forms share the life bar. If they're forced out of the mech form via fighting, then the pilot will get the full life bar. When the Tinker activates the mech form in this situation, the pilot will get all of their health back.

[Triceron]

During WoD, part of Guardian Druid's mitigation was a massive HP pool. So yes, life and hit points are a form of mitigation.

Yes, and we're talking about mitigation. This can be calculated as EHP, and is predictable and you can forms strategies around it.

Alternate lifebars are not EHP. They're separate lifebars.

The Tinker would have a single life bar in mech form, and a single life bar in pilot form. If they're manually hopping in and out of mech form, it should be like druids in that both forms share the life bar. If they're forced out of the mech form via fighting, then the pilot will get the full life bar. When the Tinker activates the mech form in this situation, the pilot will get all of their health back.

Except that's not how Druids work in terms of the lifebar. Druid health is tied together and scales accordingly. There is no 'full life bar' to switch to. What you are referring to would only apply to Resource bars, where you can swap to a separate Energy or Mana or Rage bar that has its own state. Life, however, is proportional and tied to all forms. Your bear form might look like it has more or less life when you swap to it, but only because it is proportional to the health gained. This is why popping out to Elf form to self-heal is more effective than staying in bear - your Max HP drops significantly making any incoming healing much more effective proportionally. Yet you don't want to ever do this in battle because your total EHP drops, and all survivability goes out the window without the armor, dodge, mastery and passives that come with Bear form.

Your Mech concept doesn't abide by any of these rules. You are still talking about two separate lifebars, two states. This is a needlessly complex system for a game mode which you don't seem to fully understand the nuances of.

Healers would still be affected by your system by the example of starting a 3-second big heal on the Mech form, but having the heal go off on a full-HP Pilot, wasting both mana and time for healing. The Tinker gets hit with a wasteful full heal, and the Mech form doesn't get healed. And if you allow the Mech to get healed while the Tinker is in Pilot mode? Then it's imba in favour of the Tinkers benefitting from heals twice as much as any other class due to double life bars.

This is very important to note because most healing in WoW requires cast times or channelling or buffs to be effective. Think about how Druids heal - You throw many Heal over Time spells on a target and you activate a big heal based on those buffs. So what happens to all those buffs when a Tinker swaps out his lifebar? If they simply go away, then your Druid has to re-cast all the heals and build up their combo. This is a huge hit to their mana and a waste of effective HoT healing time. What if those buffs are kept? Then the Tinker gains all the benefits of a Heal over Time spell through 2 lifebars worth of health - Swap out when almost dying in mech mode into a full Pilot lifebar that continues to heal away any residual incoming damage that would have otherwise killed the Tinker. We aren't talking about mitigation or EHP.

Think of this being applied to a Bear Druid. A Bear with full Heal over Time buffs at very low health gains no real benefit to shift to Elf form in the midst of battle. Those HOTs would be more effective in Elf Form, but your current health remains low and the Elf form becomes more vulnerable to being finished off. There is no full-heal upon swapping to Elf form, any full heals would still require action (global cooldown), and that's what keeps this balanced in PVP. You would need to set up with CCing your opponent to ensure a self-heal, not merely swapping a form. Bear form is an enhanced mitigation form, it is not a separate life bar.

[Teriz]

Yes, and we're talking about mitigation. This can be calculated as EHP, and is predictable and you can forms strategies around it.

Alternate lifebars are not EHP. They're separate lifebars.

So you're saying that someone playing against a Tinker in PvP won't know that after they destroy the mech the Tinker will go into pilot mode and form strategies around it? Why wouldn't they be able to do that? The effective health pool really has no bearing on that situation. If you're fighting against something, and you know it has a cooldown or some sort of clutch ability that can save them, the idea that you wouldn't have strategies for it is nonsense.

Except that's not how Druids work in terms of the lifebar. Druid health is tied together and scales accordingly. There is no 'full life bar' to switch to. What you are referring to would only apply to Resource bars, where you can swap to a separate Energy or Mana or Rage bar that has its own state. Life, however, is proportional and tied to all forms. Your bear form might look like it has more or less life when you swap to it, but only because it is proportional to the health gained. This is why popping out to Elf form to self-heal is more effective than staying in bear - your Max HP drops significantly making any incoming healing much more effective. Yet you don't want to ever do this in battle because your total EHP drops, and all survivability goes out the window without the armor, dodge, mastery and passives that come with Bear form.

Your Mech concept doesn't abide by any of these rules. You are still talking about two separate lifebars, two states. This is a needlessly complex system for a game mode which you don't seem to fully understand the nuances of.

Actually its not complex at all, you're making it needlessly complex as if it is utilizing some sort of alien system when it isn't. A Tinker getting knocked out of mech form into pilot form would be no different than a Guardian Druid getting knocked into caster form, except getting a heal when it occurs. In caster form, a guardian druid would lose its armor bonuses, health bonuses, mitigation, and damage reduction passives. The same should be the case for the Tinker pilot.

Healers would still be affected by your system by the example of starting a 3-second big heal on the Mech form, but having the heal go off on a full-HP Pilot, wasting both mana and time for healing. The Tinker gets hit with a wasteful full heal, and the Mech form doesn't get healed. And if you allow the Mech to get healed while the Tinker is in Pilot mode? Then it's imba in favour of the Tinkers benefitting from heals twice as much as any other class due to double life bars.

Why would that be any different than when a healer casts a 3 second heal and the tank dies before it goes off and rezzes with a Soulstone?

This is very important to note because most healing in WoW requires cast times or channelling or buffs to be effective. Think about how Druids heal - You throw many Heal over Time spells on a target and you activate a big heal based on those buffs. So what happens to all those buffs when a Tinker swaps out his lifebar? If they simply go away, then your Druid has to re-cast all the heals and build up their combo. This is a huge hit to their mana and a waste of effective HoT healing time. What if those buffs are kept? Then the Tinker gains all the benefits of a Heal over Time spell through 2 lifebars worth of health - Swap out when almost dying in mech mode into a full Pilot lifebar that continues to heal away any residual incoming damage that would have otherwise killed the Tinker. We aren't talking about mitigation or EHP. Druids would not be able to effectively heal a Tinker with either of these examples.

Again, no different than when the tank dies and uses soulstone to come back to life. When that happens, you have to do exactly what you're describing to the ressurected tank. Like I said, you're overcomplicating things.Also I see nothing wrong with the Tinker maintaining their buffs from form to form.

[Absintheminded]

Tinker tanks shouldnt be in and out of their mech imo. If I had to come up with a time they'd be out of the suit is, say, an Ardent Defender / Purgatory type ability that ejects you from the cockpit and drops aggro, forcing you to recast (repair) your suit. It would be cool if it was a passive that you could preemptively activate.

[Teriz]

Tinker tanks shouldnt be in and out of their mech imo. If I had to come up with a time they'd be out of the suit is, say, an Ardent Defender / Purgatory type ability that ejects you from the cockpit and drops aggro, forcing you to recast (repair) your suit. It would be cool if it was a passive that you could preemptively activate.

Hey, that could work as well.

[Absintheminded]

Hey, that could work as well.

Actually, I think two health pools would work with this, too. Like say your mechs health pool is called Hull Integrity or something, and when it depletes to zero and you eject you have to repair it to a certain amount. Maybe even overheals assist in repairing it.

[Triceron]

So you're saying that someone playing against a Tinker in PvP won't know that after they destroy the mech the Tinker will go into pilot mode and form strategies around it? Why wouldn't they be able to do that? The effective health pool really has no bearing on that situation. If you're fighting against something, and you know it has a cooldown or some sort of clutch ability that can save them, the idea that you wouldn't have strategies for it is nonsense.

Because you're tying this as a primary mechanic for the Tinker who can use this multiple times in combat. That is your example, is it not? That you can freely swap forms?

It would be counter intuitive to any Healers that have to account for a class that has dual lifebars, which does not formally exist in any class mechanics today.

Like I said, we already have mechanics like Feign Death and Stealth which players can strategize around. The difference is neither of these abilities are counter-intuitive to healers on your own team, and they don't give a player a 'second lifebar' upon use. Any ability that does grant a 'second life' is otherwise on large cooldowns or one-time-per-combat use.

Actually its not complex at all, you're making it needlessly complex as if it is utilizing some sort of alien system when it isn't. A Tinker getting knocked out of mech form into pilot form would be no different than a Guardian Druid getting knocked into caster form, except getting a heal when it occurs. In caster form, a guardian druid would lose its armor bonuses, health bonuses, mitigation, and damage reduction passives. The same should be the case for the Tinker pilot.

Except a Guardian Druid never gets knocked into caster form, ever. Bear form being permanent is tied into the mechanics of the class, and there is no separate lifebar for it. It doesn't impact how healing and mitigation is doled out by a Healer. For a Guardian Druid to have access to any instant-full heal capability, they would still require multiple GCD's to set it all off.

A Tinker with a separate lifebar would potentially disrupt a Healer's targetting, active buffs and anticipated big heals.

Why would that be any different than when a healer casts a 3 second heal and the tank dies before it goes off and rezzes with a Soulstone?

Battle Rezes and Soulstones are limit 1 per combat, and are tied to specific classes with those mechanics. Does the Tinker swapping forms count towards the global number Battle Resses? If not, then it is different.

Again, no different than when the tank dies and uses soulstone to come back to life. When that happens, you have to do exactly what you're describing to the ressurected tank. Like I said, you're overcomplicating things.Also I see nothing wrong with the Tinker maintaining their buffs from form to form.

So let's be clear. Is this something that contributes to the Battle Res timer; or at the very least a Panic Button with a 1 hr Cooldown (ie Lay on Hands). Will you be able to swap to Pilot mode freely, or is this something you only use *once* per combat? You keep comparing it to the Druid getting 'knocked out of form' and to DVA, so I assume you are intending this mechanic to be something used freely and occassionally in combat, not just a one-time-use-per-combat deal.

There is a big difference between Paladins having Lay on Hands as a spell, and being able to use it as freely as a Druid swaps its forms. I mean, this isn't even comparable to say Divine Shield since even that ability is counterable with Dispel. You can't just dispel the Mech or Pilot to force a certain lifebar to activate.

[Ielenia]

Yes, they would have less armor.
Yes they would have a lower health bar.
They would have a different set of skills that would still allow them to tank.

Again: this description makes the tinker sound like a liability, because any other tank, when they reach zero health, die, but can be immediately resurrected to continue doing their duties. Your tinker would not die. He would just remain in a much weaker state that would be a complete heal drain because the healers would have to keep the weakened tinker alive, blowing healing cooldowns they should be saving for important parts of the fight, just so that the tinker doesn't die due to his much smaller health and damage mitigation.

Funny, I thought that's what we were talking about here.

And yet you're not balancing it. You're just making it terribly OP, or a terrible liability.

You should read more closely. I mentioned one possible downside is a cooldown that prevents you from activating the ability immediately after losing the mech.

You should read more closely. I asked what would prevent the tinker from doing the mech escape ability. Not calling a new mech. I.E. what would stop him from "cheating death" by exiting the mech before it dies?

Actually they don't. Vengenance DHs have less armor because they're leather instead of plate. Both DKs and DHs have less armor than Warriors and Paladins because they don't have shields. Brewmasters have the lowest HP and armor of any tanks. In short, various tanks survive because of proper use of their abilities and cool downs.

True, I was mistaken about the armor, but the overall point stays the same: they are equipped to be tanks on par with the other plate-wearing and shield-bearing tanks. The problem here is that, if your tinker were designed to still be tank-able even without its mech, it makes the entire "losing the mech" mechanic completely pointless. That'd be like making all of the warrior's abilities still usable and dealing almost as much, if not just as much damage, when he is "disarmed". Or a mage still be able to cast spells when "silenced".

I disagree. As long as the pilot is weaker than the Tinker in the mech, that conveys the same concept as D.va would when she loses her tank in Overwatch.

No, it doesn't. Because you still want your tinker to be able to tank effectively even outside it's mech:

the Tinker should be able to fully perform its duties as a tank in pilot mode.

And D.Va, from Overwatch, cannot tank as a pilot. He dies faster and easier than Tracer.

Actually it's very relevant because that's what makes Warlocks fundamentally different than Mages.

It's not relevant because you ignore everything that would make other people's class fan concepts different than the currently established classes.

I never insisted anything.

You said a "void-based class" is not needed because we have death knights, and refuse to concede in ways they could be different, no matter how much people explain it to you. That is pretty much "insisting".

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Tinker tanks shouldnt be in and out of their mech imo. If I had to come up with a time they'd be out of the suit is, say, an Ardent Defender / Purgatory type ability that ejects you from the cockpit and drops aggro, forcing you to recast (repair) your suit. It would be cool if it was a passive that you could preemptively activate.

That would be way too overpowered an ability, making tinker tanks basically THE only tank to bring, considering they "cheat death" for free, allowing healers to save their cooldowns, and to use battle-rez abilities on other people.

[Teriz]

Because you're tying this as a primary mechanic for the Tinker who can use this multiple times in combat. That is your example, is it not? That you can freely swap forms?

Voluntary swapping makes you retain the same HP between forms. Losing your mech in combat "ejects" the Tinker, heals them, and they're in pilot mode until they can resummon the mech again.

It would be counter intuitive to any Healers that have to account for a class that has dual lifebars, which does not formally exist in any class mechanics today.

Except it wouldn't have dual life bars. It has one life bar at a time.

Like I said, we already have mechanics like Feign Death and Stealth which players can strategize around. The difference is neither of these abilities are counter-intuitive to healers on your own team, and they don't give a player a 'second lifebar' upon use. Any ability that does grant a 'second life' is otherwise on large cooldowns or one-time-per-combat use.

Lay on Hands and Soulstone have 10 minute cooldowns. I think that would be fair for something like this.

Except a Guardian Druid never gets knocked into caster form, ever. Bear form being permanent is tied into the mechanics of the class, and there is no separate lifebar for it. It doesn't impact how healing and mitigation is doled out by a Healer. For a Guardian Druid to have access to any instant-full heal capability, they would still require multiple GCD's to set it all off.

There's been plenty of cases where Druid players have accidentally entered caster form, instantly losing all of the benefits of bear form. Hell, once my Guild Leader switched from Bear to Cat form while tanking, and for some reason couldn't get back into Bear form. We ended up wiping because of it.

Battle Rezes and Soulstones are limit 1 per combat, and are tied to specific classes with those mechanics. Does the Tinker swapping forms count towards the global number Battle Resses? If not, then it is different.

Again, in order for this to work, the Tinker's mech form has to be "destroyed". They don't get this benefit by swapping back and forth on their own.

So let's be clear. Is this something that contributes to the Battle Res timer; or at the very least a Panic Button with a 1 hr Cooldown (ie Lay on Hands). Will you be able to swap to Pilot mode freely, or is this something you only use *once* per combat? You keep comparing it to the Druid getting 'knocked out of form' and to DVA, so I assume you are intending this mechanic to be something used freely and occassionally in combat, not just a one-time-use-per-combat deal.

There is a big difference between Paladins having Lay on Hands as a spell, and being able to use it as freely as a Druid swaps its forms. I mean, this isn't even comparable to say Divine Shield since even that ability is counterable with Dispel. You can't just dispel the Mech or Pilot to force a certain lifebar to activate.

Lay on Hands has a 1hr CD? I'm seeing 10 minutes. Reincarnation has a 30 minute CD, and Soulstone has a 10 minute CD.

More than likely, something like this would be a once per combat sort of deal.

[Absintheminded]

That would be way too overpowered an ability, making tinker tanks basically THE only tank to bring, considering they "cheat death" for free, allowing healers to save their cooldowns, and to use battle-rez abilities on other people.

Except other tanks have a cheat death and allowing the tinker to activate it would just fill a role of a CD. It wouldn't be overpowered because, like other similar tank passives, it would be a long CD. Purgatory is 4 minutes and Last Resort is 8.

[Teriz]

Again: this description makes the tinker sound like a liability, because any other tank, when they reach zero health, die, but can be immediately resurrected to continue doing their duties. Your tinker would not die. He would just remain in a much weaker state that would be a complete heal drain because the healers would have to keep the weakened tinker alive, blowing healing cooldowns they should be saving for important parts of the fight, just so that the tinker doesn't die due to his much smaller health and damage mitigation.

Like I said, the Tinker in pilot form should still be able to tank the dungeon effectively in pilot mode, just not as effectively as in Mech mode.

And yet you're not balancing it. You're just making it terribly OP, or a terrible liability.

I have a feeling that no matter what I say you're going to say its either OP or too weak.

You should read more closely. I asked what would prevent the tinker from doing the mech escape ability. Not calling a new mech. I.E. what would stop him from "cheating death" by exiting the mech before it dies?

And I told you; The Tinker can't voluntarily exit the mech to initiate that effect, they have to be forced out of it via damage.

True, I was mistaken about the armor, but the overall point stays the same: they are equipped to be tanks on par with the other plate-wearing and shield-bearing tanks. The problem here is that, if your tinker were designed to still be tank-able even without its mech, it makes the entire "losing the mech" mechanic completely pointless. That'd be like making all of the warrior's abilities still usable and dealing almost as much, if not just as much damage, when he is "disarmed". Or a mage still be able to cast spells when "silenced".

Yeah, I disagree. I think you can still make the Tinker in pilot mode effective, but still punishing for the player. Losing the mech should be punitive, but that doesn't mean it NEEDS to be less effective. One way it could be punitive is simply making pilot mode harder to tank with. The point would be that if you're a Tinker tank, you don't want to lose your mech and have to deal with tanking in Pilot mode because its nerve wracking and punishing, and requires you to tank in a completely different way.

It's not relevant because you ignore everything that would make other people's class fan concepts different than the currently established classes.


You said a "void-based class" is not needed because we have death knights, and refuse to concede in ways they could be different, no matter how much people explain it to you. That is pretty much "insisting".

No, I asked what makes a Void knight different than a Death Knight.

[Ielenia]

Except other tanks have a cheat death and allowing the tinker to activate it would just fill a role of a CD. It wouldn't be overpowered because, like other similar tank passives, it would be a long CD. Purgatory is 4 minutes and Last Resort is 8.

Except their "cheat deaths" do not wipe aggro, and only bring them to a small % of their life. If they take the talent for it, too. It's not a baseline ability.

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Like I said, the Tinker in pilot form should still be able to tank the dungeon effectively in pilot mode, just not as effectively as in Mech mode.

Once again: it makes the mechanic pointless, at best, and a liability, at worst. If the tinker can still tank effectively even outside mech mode, then the mechanic is pointless because it would basically not make any difference being in mech than out of mech. If he cannot, then it's a liability, because that means the tinker would not be dead, leaving the whole group without a tank until he's back in the mech. There's no way around it.

I have a feeling that no matter what I say you're going to say its either OP or too weak.

If you make it balanced, I'll concede.

And I told you; The Tinker can't voluntarily exit the mech to initiate that effect, they have to be forced out of it via damage.

You are describing a passive ability, but every time someone said it's "too powerful" for a passive, you replied with:

Yeah, again no different than Paladins having Lay on Hands on standby to completely bring them back to full health.

Actually it wouldn't be passively activated, it would be an active ability.

Again where did I say it was passive/automatic? I said it was an active ability, and the tank option to get the mech back more quickly could have multiple downsides.

Yeah, I disagree. I think you can still make the Tinker in pilot mode effective, but still punishing for the player. Losing the mech should be punitive, but that doesn't mean it NEEDS to be less effective.

Yes, it does, Teriz. That's the whole reason behind "punitive". How do you "punish" a player character? By making the character less effective. Resurrecting at a graveyard, for example, punishes the player by giving them a 10-minute debuff that lowers your stats by 75%. If the player character is not being less effective, then it's not a punishment.

No, I asked what makes a Void knight different than a Death Knight.

And you're basically asking what makes a paladin different than a warrior. "Void" and "necromancy" are completely different concepts, just like demonic fire, and mage fire, and elemental fire. Both "dealing shadow damage" is irrelevant, really, because, as explained already, "shadow damage" is a catch-all term that encompasses fel, necromancy and void. Just like "nature damage" is a catch-all term for earth, wind and lightning.

[Teriz]

Except their "cheat deaths" do not wipe aggro, and only bring them to a small % of their life. If they take the talent for it, too. It's not a baseline ability.

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Argent Defender isn't a talent.

Once again: it makes the mechanic pointless, at best, and a liability, at worst. If the tinker can still tank effectively even outside mech mode, then the mechanic is pointless because it would basically not make any difference being in mech than out of mech. If he cannot, then it's a liability, because that means the tinker would not be dead, leaving the whole group without a tank until he's back in the mech. There's no way around it.

I suppose at this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

If you make it balanced, I'll concede.


You are describing a passive ability, but every time someone said it's "too powerful" for a passive, you replied with:

The "ejection" from the mech is passive. Bringing back the mech while in pilot form is active.

Yes, it does, Teriz. That's the whole reason behind "punitive". How do you "punish" a player character? By making the character less effective. Resurrecting at a graveyard, for example, punishes the player by giving them a 10-minute debuff that lowers your stats by 75%. If the player character is not being less effective, then it's not a punishment.

And like I said, there's other ways to be punitive outside of simply making the tank less effective. IMO, making tanking more difficult for the player is punitive.

And you're basically asking what makes a paladin different than a warrior. "Void" and "necromancy" are completely different concepts, just like demonic fire, and mage fire, and elemental fire. Both "dealing shadow damage" is irrelevant, really, because, as explained already, "shadow damage" is a catch-all term that encompasses fel, necromancy and void. Just like "nature damage" is a catch-all term for earth, wind and lightning.

Well no, because a Warrior can't use holy magic. Both Void Knights and Death Knights would be using Shadow magic.

[Ielenia]

Argent Defender isn't a talent.

But it is an active ability, though, and one that does not fully recharge your life, too.

I suppose at this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There is no "agree to disagree", here. You're basically saying saying "agree to disagree" when I say the surface of the sun is hot while you say the surface of the sun is cold.

The "ejection" from the mech is passive. Bringing back the mech while in pilot form is active.

So you admit it is a passive ability? Because that's the thing we have been discussing the whole time: the ability that saves the tinker from death, i.e., jumping out of the mech.

And like I said, there's other ways to be punitive outside of simply making the tank less effective.

And you've failed so far in describing any such "other ways".

IMO, making tanking more difficult for the player is punitive.

... In other words, making the tank less effective. That is literally what what you wrote means: making the tank less effective.

Well no, because a Warrior can't use holy magic. Both Void Knights and Death Knights would be using Shadow magic.

"SHADOW MAGIC" IS A CATCH-ALL GAME TERM, TERIZ!
Just like "nature magic" is a catch-all term for all earth, wind and lightning magic.

Death knights are not using "shadow magic". They're using necromantic magic. Just like warlocks are not using "shadow magic', they're using fel magic.

[Teriz]

There is no "agree to disagree", here. You're basically saying saying "agree to disagree" when I say the surface of the sun is hot while you say the surface of the sun is cold.

No, I'm saying agree to disagree because I believe that you can create such a mechanic, make it balanced and still allow the tank to be effective throughout the raid.

And you've failed so far in describing any such "other ways".

I've described multiple ways. You simply refuse to accept them. Hence "agree to disagree".

Just like warlocks are not using "shadow magic', they're using fel magic.

Affliction
A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells. Preferred Weapon: Staff, Wand, Dagger, Sword

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...ock/affliction

[Ielenia]

No, I'm saying agree to disagree because I believe that you can create such a mechanic, make it balanced and still allow the tank to be effective throughout the raid.

You just failed to describe such a way, every time you tried.

I've described multiple ways. You simply refuse to accept them. Hence "agree to disagree".

You haven't. You only described ways in which the ability would be too OP, or pointless. And I've explained why, every time.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ga...ock/affliction

Again, catch-all term. Check this.

[Teriz]

You just failed to describe such a way, every time you tried.

Because you're not looking for a way for the mechanic to work, you're looking for every way to shoot it down.

You haven't. You only described ways in which the ability would be too OP, or pointless. And I've explained why, every time.

Fine, then keep the tank spec in the mech at all times, and reserve the ability for the Tinker to eject from the mech, possibly survive, and resuming the mech for the DPS spec. Problem solved.

Again, catch-all term. Check this.

It's a catch all term because it's catch-all gameplay wise as well.