"The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."
Jaina literally starts this whole thing by saying that in light of Aethas' refusal to leave the city with the rest of Sunreavers she'd remove them by force. And just because Jaina herself was teleporting people doesn't mean the High Elves goons she let loose on the city didn't kill anyone.
Aethas was blackmailed with the fate of the Blood Elves not residing in Dalaran. And it's Jaina who broke her ties to Dalaran first by siding with Darnassus against the Horde.
Zul's forces did. And as was revealed before the attack on Dazar'alor, Zul was a traitor working for the Old Gods.
So according to you humans in Warcraft haven't discovered the concept of rape? Never mind that the head of the very internment camps you're defending with Orcs' "unusual" inclination to rape was forcing Taretha to be his mistress. Seriously, what on earth...
And before that Legion happened, where Alliance showed that they are perfectly fine jeopardizing the war against the Legion and risking the fate of the entire cosmos just to start shit with the Horde. Just like they previously did during the war against the Scourge. Except this time it was so bad the Horde and Alliance couldn't even lead the charge against the Legion, which is why we needed the Class Orders to pick up the slack.
The real question is, what happened first. It was my understanding that Ashenvale's invasion happened first, and the road to the Barrens happened afterward, because that was the only way to advance forces. But those roads were built on the authority of King Varian Wrynn, not Jaina Proudmoore. She didn't approve of using those roads, or her city as a port, and that was why she wanted to go to the table and try to alleviate tensions between the Alliance and the Horde, and was going to assemble members from both factions to set up peace talks. Before those could happen, Theramore was bombed, not the roads, and the port. The civilians of Theramore. Jaina should have told Kalec and Thrall to fuck themselves and destroy Orgrimmar, personally.
"The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."
1. No, it was not the largest naval installation. The largest one, and the only place on Azeroth with a dry-dock system used to create battleships and the like was in Stormwind.
2. Dazar'alor was a military target. The Rastakhan dynasty allowed the Horde access to their cities, their warships (which had already fired on, and destroyed several ships in the fleet, mind you), and had attempted to use Derek Proudmoore as a weapon against the Proudmoores before Baine's intervention. THAT puts you in the crosshairs. What doesn't put someone in the crosshairs is being a port city that is a trader post, a fishing village, and home to an otherwise sympathetic human in the middle of the Horde and Alliance conflict. A military target has a specific military objective. Theramore was the home to many civilians, a security force that was more inline against the ogres and the Defias than the Horde, and the home to a person who wanted more than anything to reestablish good measures between the Horde and Alliance. And, the port itself was not destroyed, nor was the roads leading into the Barrens. THOSE would have been military targets, but no, let's kill all the innocents in the city to send a bloody message to the Alliance and then wonder why Jaina goes all monkey fuck against the Horde....
"The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."
And yet another thread has been hopelessly derailed and turned into a shitshow by the Horde's PR department. Requesting a lock.
Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
The peons were also cutting down the nelfs' allies homes, so they weren't civilians. They were in fact committing warcrimes themselves, and if we're being all Geneva Conventions about this, they weren't in uniform, etc., and so were illegal combatants (like spies) and the Alliance could do whatever the heck they liked to them because they don't come under the rules for soldiers.
The miners also attack the player, while in neutral territory. That makes it self-defence if you wait for them to aggro onto you before offing them.You mean the same miners who had the Horde PC kill spies that were, by the miner's own admission, doing nothing other than "skulking around", in neutral territory, where they had just as much right to be as the miners? We don't know which one of those quests happened first, but if the Horde one happened first the Alliance were justified... And given that the miners only said the spies were "skulking around", and made no mention of any of their people being killed, I'll happily wager that the Horde quest happened first.
How much military planning experience do you have? Horde levels, I suspect. Ok, one more time from the top. Let's assume we have a military base near a city. Let's assume you are a military strategist, and you need the operations of this military base to cease operations. You could A. Attack the base, itself, and make a direct strike against that military outpost, or B. You could strike the city, and kill many people who are the families of the people on the military base, but most of them have nothing to do with the military base, or if they do, it is on a humanitarian level, like food delivery, utilities, and waste disposal, and not on a military level. You only have one mana bomb, so you can't hit both. What do you do? And to make things even more clear, one of these options is hitting a military target. The other is an act of terrorism. Do you see the difference, yet?
The idea that Jaina disagrees with her own stance seems a bit like dividing by zero. Before the bomb hit her city, she tried on multiple occasions to bring the Horde and Alliance to the table for peace talks. She let her father die at the hands of Rexxar because she believed what HE was doing was wrong. Don't sit there and tell me Theramore was on even remotely the same field as Stormwind was. That's an insult to my intelligence.
"The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."
Being a generic, boring fantasy faction with generic boring values, and no real depth or complexity.
This is why the horde has had civil war several times because it's more versatile in its society, which is a bit more believable then a faction that looks like a child drew races around the world holding hands
#boycottchina
IT's what happens when you insist that your leader be the 'Warchief'. Any sensible
Warchief knows that without wars, there's no need for one. The rest of the Horde finally seems to have worked this one out, about the time that the Alliance has decided that a single 'High King' is a great idea.
Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)
The Void. A force of infinite hunger. Its whispers have broken the will of dragons... and lured even the titans' own children into madness. Sages and scholars fear the Void. But we understand a truth they do not. That the Void is a power to be harnessed... to be bent by a will strong enough to command it. The Void has shaped us... changed us. But you will become its master. Wield the shadows as a weapon to save our world... and defend the Alliance!
'Multiple Hordes' = an attempt to avoid responsibility for your behaviour back in the day. Look at the names Thrall's 'new' Horde gave its new home: 'Durotar', 'Orgrimmar', etc. Thrall bore Doomhammer, ffs. It's the same old Horde, and you can see that as soon as Thrall steps down. There's a quest where one orc talks about Thrall's way vs Garrosh's, but that's all we see of the 'old way' once Garry is in power - the vast majority of Orcs leap at the chance to go back to constant warfare, and at the chance to be on top of the Horde with every other member race subordinate to Orcs.
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They didn't just commit genocide of the (then peaceful) Draenei that they'd had no previous beef with, they were proud of the fact. They called the road they made with Draenei bones the 'Path of Glory'.
Exactly. There's a profound unwillingness in the Orcish parts of the Horde to face up to their past and admit wrongdoing.The Orcs took Blood of Mannoroth because they had been convinced that the Draenei, who at this point had taken no hostile actions against them, were planning to attack. They were not required to drink the Blood of Mannoroth, but Grommash convinced the Orcs to do so, seemingly because he enjoyed being under its effect. They then committed an unprovoked genocide against the Draenei. Then, when presented with a portal to Azeroth, decided to invade because the Humans seemed weak, and let their bloodlust overwhelm them.
"Hey guys, I know we committed a genocide on a peaceful people, and attempted to wipe out the Humans and their allies multiple times, but that wasn't our fault. It was the fault of the 50ft tall demon who offered us his blood, which we drank willingly for power to fight an enemy we had no evidence held any ill will towards us. It's also not our fault when we did things like make the path of glory, which is a testament to our genocide. I swear, we're not violent, the drugs just make us that way." - Basically Orcs
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You might want to check your history. That's a massive over-generalisation, and is simply incorrect.
Oh, no no no. You cant just say a high ranking member of the Alliance leading an Alliance army is not responsible for Alliance actions.
From wowwiki:
"Othmar Garithos was the Grand Marshal leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War and also the de-facto leader of Alliance forces in Lordaeron. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant and prejudiced policies."
Yeah i found that very odd that she suddenly chickend out. She let the horde kill her father, she could have frozen him or something. Then the wrathgate happend, so she could have thought that horde is incompetent in keeping their people in check in these dire times. And then garrosh bombed the city and the horde laugh about it, if it were me I wouldnt have chickend out and would have washed ogrimmar away. TBH washing a large part of ogrimmar away would have been a better story, hordies will hate jaina.
This thread:
1- Alliance fanbois trying to say Garithos wasnt even racist.
2- "But high ranking general X was not on Storwind lands, so its not a valid action"
3- "But, you see, in the far far future, that evil guy turned out to be horde!!!"
4- Every bad Alliance action is just military strategy.
5- Every bad Alliance action pales because Horde does baddier.
Its like trying to justify rape because a guy next to you raped and killed.
It's more than just using the same name, the manual treats them as the same entity. It sets up the Grand Alliance as being supported by humans and dwarves for years/generations and that they all still operate as part of it by the time WoW starts.
While the Alliance has been weakened by recent events, the dwarves of Ironforge, led by King Magni Bronzebeard, are forging a new future in the world.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 170
The exception is gnomes. It sets them up as having supported the Grand Alliance for years, but are currently preoccupied with retaking Gnomeregan.
Over the years, the gnomes have contributed ingenious weapons to aid the Grand Alliance in its fierce battles against the Horde.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 174
It should be noted that the manual also treats the Horde as more or less the same entity as well.
At one time in Azeroth's past, the Horde was a force of evil, and the Alliance was a bastion of good. However, in today's war-torn Azeroth, such black and white distinctions are gone. Both factions are simply fighting to preserve their way of life in the wake of the Chaos War.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 14
The difference being that it says the Horde collapsed while the Alliance was merely failing. There's no indication anywhere that the Alliance collapsed completely and had to be reformed the way the Horde was.
Hid the identity of the new Lich King when Arthas was defeated.
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief