What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Edward Wu]

So basically you're saying the Alliance's most heinous thing they've done is that they didn't commit genocide, which in itself is a heinous act? I don't understand why people like you ignore the violent pasts of the Alliance races but don't hesitate to use the past of the orcs against them.

Interesting how you compare dismantling an organization to genocide, an act that the Horde has actually committed this expansion. This looks like projection to me.

[Mehrunes]

I mean in the sense that Varian formally declared war after the forsaken had just assassinated the lord protector of Stormwind. Which we all know was in no way sanctioned or even ordered by Sylvanas (amirite forsakenbros WINK).
At the very least the MoP leg of the conflict was a defensive war for the alliance what with Garrosh's invasion fleet and all.

Except not only was Varian aware of the fact that Wrathgate was performed by traitors to the Horde, with that awareness being a key motive for him going to Undercity in the first place, but his declaration of war had nothing to do with the Forsaken and everything to do with his personal views on the Orcs. The "biggest" reference to the Forsaken in his whole speech was a passing remark about Sylvanas being a witch. And the omniscient narration of the post-Cata Forsaken intro outright says the still-Horde Forsaken were wrongly suspected of involvement in the Wrathgate. Also, what Garrosh's invasion fleet? Garrosh was using his fleet to blockade Kalimdor. Besides, at best you can separate the war into pre-Cata and post-Cata periods as there was a ceasefire at the end of WotLK. Trying to make MoP into a separate bit is rather forced.

Ah yes, destroying an object with which Sylvanas intended to enslave a Watcher that she got through a deal with an enemy of both the Alliance and Horde. Very, very evil. :^)

At that time Helya was pretty much still a nobody to both factions.

[LilSaihah]

Probably neglecting the human towns outside of Stormwind and then forcibly putting down the peasant revolts when they get justifiably mad.

Other than that, it's like... pressing Pandaren into forced labor in Emerald Forest.

[TheRevenantHero]

Interesting how you compare dismantling an organization to genocide, an act that the Horde has actually committed this expansion. This looks like projection to me.

The only way the Horde would be dismantled is if a massive amount of their population was killed. That is, by definition, genocide.

[Yarathir]

At that time Helya was pretty much still a nobody to both factions.

This is low-tier damage control, but alright.

[Dungo]

Daelin's evil acts are far worse than most other characters in the series. Only maybe Sylvanas could compare to how terrible Daelin was.

[Mehrunes]

This is low-tier damage control, but alright.

What damage control? We only ever got to fight Helya because of our temporary team-up with Odyn. That happened at the end of Stormheim. You know, after Sylvanas' deal with Helya. The players literally heard about her for the first time in the same questline in which they saw Sylvanas chatting with her. But alright.

[Edward Wu]

The only way the Horde would be dismantled is if a massive amount of their population was killed.

This kind of claim will need proof.

[Feanoro]

Enemy of Alliance is a friend of Horde.

So the Legion, Lich King, Void Lords, Deathwing, and the list could go on and on... are friends of the Horde. See what's wrong with your idea?

[qwerty123456]

1.Jaina literally starts this whole thing by saying that in light of Aethas' refusal to leave the city with the rest of Sunreavers she'd remove them by force. And just because Jaina herself was teleporting people doesn't mean the High Elves goons she let loose on the city didn't kill anyone.




2.Aethas was blackmailed with the fate of the Blood Elves not residing in Dalaran. And it's Jaina who broke her ties to Dalaran first by siding with Darnassus against the Horde.




3.Zul's forces did. And as was revealed before the attack on Dazar'alor, Zul was a traitor working for the Old Gods.




4.So according to you humans in Warcraft haven't discovered the concept of rape? Never mind that the head of the very internment camps you're defending with Orcs' "unusual" inclination to rape was forcing Taretha to be his mistress. Seriously, what on earth...




5.And before that Legion happened, where Alliance showed that they are perfectly fine jeopardizing the war against the Legion and risking the fate of the entire cosmos just to start shit with the Horde. Just like they previously did during the war against the Scourge. Except this time it was so bad the Horde and Alliance couldn't even lead the charge against the Legion, which is why we needed the Class Orders to pick up the slack.

Not taking the time to make multiple quotes so imma just number them:

1. When the High Elves were getting attacked by people who potentially are conspirators of course they are going to fight back. And if you want to get technical any deaths are on Aethas's has as he could have turned himself in and told the truth. He let the "purge" happen because he was a cowered and was hoping he could keep his position.

2. Aethas is a powerful mage in a city full a super mages. If he was really scared shitless of Garrosh he could have went to the council and let them know he needed to be stopped then all the mages could have either portaled around grabbing Blood Elves and protecting them or a thousand other possibilities. And if he knew that Garrosh was a monster willing to wipe out the blood elves as a fuck you to Aethas then what did he plan on doing once the Alliance was wiped out? How on earth could he protect the Blood Elves once Garrosh had no more enemies to kill as was bored?

3. Yes Zul did but how on earth would the Alliance know that? All they knew is that the Zandalari who used to work with them a bit attacked them and then had the horde staying in their throne room. Lorewise did the Alliance find out about Zul? And it doesn't even matter as how they gonna know when he became a traitor.

4. We have no idea if humans rape as there is no lore that has ever shown one to. We do know harpies, orcs, ogres, and some demons do though. And I wasn't defending Aedelas he was a drunk piece of crap whose entire life had his dad's betrayal hanging over his head. And yes its probably true that he raped Taretha but it's never stated that it actually was people have rough sex all the time, people also marry, fuck, etc people they don't like for various reasons.

5. What does anything you said have to do with worrying about being exterminated by the Horde? Also how many cities and races did the legion and scourge wipe out or nearly wipe out in those attacks? The Horde has been the most successful villains in the last 15 years destroying multiple cities in Teldrassil, all along the west coast of Kalimdor, one or two on Kul Tiras, and nearly wiping out the night elves.

Key word there being lifeform. Are cavemen considered to be primitive lifeforms or primitive people?

In the real world people. But we are talking about Azeroth were magic exists. Being unable to use magic would likely be considered a primitive lifeform. And to a Titan they probably see most if all life as primitive lifeforms.

I never once called elves abominations. Do not put words in my mouth. I simply said that they are a completely separate race to trolls. Also, the rest of your post is utterly irrelevant to what I said. The quel'dorei and humans brought genocide against the trolls who were defending their own land. If you're going to try and say that the trolls stole that land anyway and it was just war, then we will have to use the same logic when talking about the orcs that invaded from Outlands.

Not relevant? You were crying that the elves and Humans attacked trolls and stole their land and I showed you the trolls did the exact same thing actually probably worse as they were cannibals and took a fuck ton more land.

Does it matter? The high elves were the only reason the city was even founded, and lived there from day one. It's like a city with two separate aboriginal peoples living in it together. And because a handful of them did something bad, the other side decided they had to leave or die. The high/blood divide is irrelevant to the argument. They were already blood elves and hadn't even done anything the first time Dalaran tried to exterminate them.

Besides Thalen did we see ANY blood elves supporting Garrosh? All the named blood elves we know of were disgusted by Theramore and wanted nothing to do with it. Even Blizzard went out and said the most involved Aethas Sunreaver had was knowing there was going to be a robbery and not doing anything. "Hey, all you Native Americans, you're no longer allowed in America. Get out or we'll kill you. We might decide to let you back in later." Do you have any idea how wrong that is?

So your argument is that you're mad that a powerful priestess... was a powerful priestess when she was first introduced instead of having to grow from nothing in front of our eyes. Wow, someone better tell Jaina she's a bad character cause she was a powerful mage from when she was introduced. Zul was portrayed as someone Talanji disliked and distrusted from the beginning. Not sure how you got the idea he was a teacher figure to Talanji, except making it up to try to draw a paralell between her and Yrel. And finally, your comment of Rastakhan becoming inept and senile is just your opinion.

Again Dalaran didn't try and exterminate and the sunreavers chose to side with a faction that was ok with wiping out people. You really think in an emergency situation they would just let everyone be?

See my reply to Mehrunes for the rest of the Dalaran stuff.

What? no I'm not mad she is powerful, I'm mad that had to make Rastakhan inept and kill him off for a new character. Rastakhan set up the Horde right next to his treasure room, let them set up a fuckload of portals all in a chokepoint with the only access to his throne he was either asking to be robbed, killed, kidnapped, and or ransomed. Talanji was pretty buddy-buddy with Zul in the Stormwind escape and shit and why on earth were they together in the first place? From that scene alone it would have been better if Zul and Talanji both were betraying Rastakhan and a younger sister and the horde player find out and stop them.

[Feanoro]

Daelin's evil acts are far worse than most other characters in the series. Only maybe Sylvanas could compare to how terrible Daelin was.

You mean chasing escaped monsters that slaughtered a garrison, leveled buildings, and stole ships to escape, possibly to rebuild their strength and come back to finish what they started under Blackhand and Orgrim?

Portraying him as flat out evil is ignoring the character's motivations entirely.

[Yarathir]

So the Legion, Lich King, Void Lords, Deathwing, and the list could go on and on... are friends of the Horde. See what's wrong with your idea?

Apparently, since Sylvanas also conspired with Azshara, and that was fine with SylvanasHorde fans. But oh no, Saurfang didn't immediately try to break Anduin's neck for looking at him, he's the traitor!!!!

[Mardux]

So the Legion, Lich King, Void Lords, Deathwing, and the list could go on and on... are friends of the Horde. See what's wrong with your idea?

I understand why you would want to twist the meaning of that proverb, so that it fits your narrative. But damn, to do it online where people aren't worried about calling you out on your dumbass comments? There's a very thin line between brave and stupid, and you're riding that shit like it's your job.
[Infraction]

[Ardenaso]

I think this needs a separate thread, but... Jaina should be held accountable for Daelin Proudmoore

Sylvanas Windrunner: The Legion was defeated months ago. How could they not know?

Jaina had all the time to go back to Kul Tiras or at least send some messengers to the Kul Tiras proper and tell them that the Thrall's Horde is no longer the same as the Old Horde. Then she would say that they were corrupted by demons to make them bloodthirsty and that with the Alliance and Horde working together with the Night Elves, the Horde is no longer bound by the demons and so they are no longer the same as before. Signed with each representative/witness of each faction to the Kalimdor Brigades for credibility (High Elf, Wildhammer, Bronzebeard, Lordaeronian, Gilnean, Stromic, Kul Tiran, Silver Hand, Dalaranian, and Kirin Tor). Then she would also have proposed a way for the Thrall's Horde to make amends with the Kul Tirans for peace and cooperation for a better future. She would've either used some airships or conjure a portal to Boralus.

tl;dr: Jaina had time to prevent Kul Tirans' attack in Durotar but she didn't.

[Mardux]

Apparently, since Sylvanas also conspired with Azshara, and that was fine with SylvanasHorde fans. But oh no, Saurfang didn't immediately try to break Anduin's neck for looking at him, he's the traitor!!!!

Gotta love the mass generalization from the people without decent arguments. You and Fean should get along phenomenally.

[Saltysquidoon]

Except not only was Varian aware of the fact that Wrathgate was performed by traitors to the Horde, with that awareness being a key motive for him going to Undercity in the first place, but his declaration of war had nothing to do with the Forsaken and everything to do with his personal views on the Orcs. The "biggest" reference to the Forsaken in his whole speech was a passing remark about Sylvanas being a witch. And the omniscient narration of the post-Cata Forsaken intro outright says the still-Horde Forsaken were wrongly suspected of involvement in the Wrathgate. Also, what Garrosh's invasion fleet? Garrosh was using his fleet to blockade Kalimdor. Besides, at best you can separate the war into pre-Cata and post-Cata periods as there was a ceasefire at the end of WotLK. Trying to make MoP into a separate bit is rather forced.

His declaration of war explicitly talks about how the forsaken murdered Bolvar, He also states prior to entering the undercity the primary purpose of the attack is to get justice for the deaths at the wrath gate. His prejudice (well it's not really prejudice given his experiences as both a child and a gladiator, his bias is probably better) against orcs is obviously a factor (and probably a greater point by the writers about some vague antiwar theme).
Your post reads like he was just going for a stroll one day randomly saw thrall and dropped his spaghetti. He was only in the undercity because his prime minister was assassinated (and a large minority of his army killed) and he only lost his shit because he saw the forsaken experiments (which we know are sanctioned and indeed ordered by Sylvanas) and saw the horde wasn't controlling them.
His motivations are immaterial anyway since what makes a war offensive or defensive is the military situation not who declares war.

Garrosh literally tells Nazgrim to "Redirect the invasion fleet" and to "Storm the shore and pain the new continent red". Further referring to a part of a conflict as the 'mop leg' is not inaccurate or even vaguely inappropriate it's perfectly normal to refer to different sections of once ongoing conflict by different names, especially if they take place at certain times and in different theatres.

[Mardux]

Interesting how you compare dismantling an organization to genocide, an act that the Horde has actually committed this expansion. This looks like projection to me.

Interesting how you continue to uphold double standards of how something is genocide if horde does it how something is not genocide if the alliance does it, despite both events fitting the description of genocide rather well.

[Aucald]

This thread appears to be hopelessly derailed and will now be closed.