I can't be the only one predicting a permanent level 60 cap

[VinceVega]

I don't get why people would have a problem with this.
New players probably play SL and the next espansion then. Existing can players can play whatever they want.

Levels have no actuall bearing on the game. Lorewise there are no levels. This way you just keep the grind to a minimum to get to the actual game and it does not bloat back to 120... or forcing you to play expansions that make no sense to you whatsoever.

[vertigo12]

I don't get why people would have a problem with this.
New players probably play SL and the next espansion then. Existing can players can play whatever they want.

Levels have no actuall bearing on the game. Lorewise there are no levels. This way you just keep the grind to a minimum to get to the actual game and it does not bloat back to 120... or forcing you to play expansions that make no sense to you whatsoever.

Here's are some possibilies:
- retain the actually level-up scheme and add 10 levels
- have a level crunch then add 5-10 levels on succeeding expac
- have a level crunch and keep it a permanent feature.
- completely remove leveling and have leveling experience from 1-10 like Baldur's Gate.

[VinceVega]

Here's are some possibilies:
- retain the actually level-up scheme and add 10 levels
- have a level crunch then add 5-10 levels on succeeding expac
- have a level crunch and keep it a permanent feature.
- completely remove leveling and have leveling experience from 1-10 like Baldur's Gate.

Baldurs Gate goes further. Just not in the first game. Sooo expansion levels
ALso always felt extremly powerless in BG1 as you also did not get the higher spells etc.

Throwing old expansions into the chromie time handels the whole weird timeline ok-ish. No real solution possible except a complete overhaul of the game every patch.
Relevant zones can be updated if needed. Also an overhaul will come with the inevitable bitching of the playerbase

[Protar95]

It isn't unfair. If they are going to be turned off of a game just because of a high number with out knowledge of the time it takes to get to that number then they will be turned off by any other aspect. Because things are not always what the seem. Leveling to 60 can take longer then leveling to 120. It isn't a universal thing that all game designers enforce. So a number is irrelevant with out the knowledge of what that number means.

If a person brand new to the game is going to make decisions with out knowledge then I would say they are unlikely to keep playing or rather not the type of player that is good for the game.

Maybe some other aspect of the game would turn them off and make them quit. Or maybe that first impression of 120 levels sounding like a big investment of time is all that's stopping them getting into it. That will differ from person to person. It's Blizzards job to make sure that the game looks as appealing as possible to potential new players. Blizzard certainly isn't saying "well those customers aren't worth marketing to anyway, we'd rather not even try to make a profit off of them."

[rhorle]

Maybe some other aspect of the game would turn them off and make them quit. Or maybe that first impression of 120 levels sounding like a big investment of time is all that's stopping them getting into it. That will differ from person to person. It's Blizzards job to make sure that the game looks as appealing as possible to potential new players. Blizzard certainly isn't saying "well those customers aren't worth marketing to anyway, we'd rather not even try to make a profit off of them."

You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.

[vertigo12]

You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.

Having higher number of character level per expac:
- it is more encouraging and a good marketing strategy for character boost/promo packages for pre-purchase
- having higher number of character level would allow a greater range for interdispersal of content may it be rewards, talent, abilities vs having a lower ones i.e. 1-10 levels vs 1-25 vs 1-45 vs 1-50
- the current implemented system known as level bracket is already in place which is currently effective. All it takes is continue to use it and just make minor adjustments vs a complete overhaul which takes too much effort, time, resources which can be smartly allocated to more important matters.
- they may use this CL crunch on a latter expansion. Now is not the time thematically if they really have the need to.
- 130 levels is still achievable and practical. What is not practical? Starting from level 85 and upto the max level is the interdispersal of ability, may it be in the form of ranks which they removed and introduced once again, perks which now are into incarnation of ability ranks, expac specific content for character customization which they scrap off by the end of the expansion instead of allowing the concept to get carried over to atleast two to three expac and make a bridging mechanic which absorb the said concept and being integral part, ie. Legionadaries could been improved by allowing it to be Azerite infused 8.+ or upgraded to have the effect of corruption in 8.3 and by 9.5 legionadaries be carried over to SL to be anima infused and reforged inside Torghast complete destroying the item,extracting the essence and carrying the effect to the new crafting system inside Torghast.

- - - Updated - - -

Baldurs Gate goes further. Just not in the first game. Sooo expansion levels
ALso always felt extremly powerless in BG1 as you also did not get the higher spells etc.

Throwing old expansions into the chromie time handels the whole weird timeline ok-ish. No real solution possible except a complete overhaul of the game every patch.
Relevant zones can be updated if needed. Also an overhaul will come with the inevitable bitching of the playerbase

That's not problem actually gameplay-wise or mechanics wise or storyline-wise. They have phasing tech since WotLK been using it ever since. They have quest to create instantiated scenarios to old areas having max level mobs inside it with scaling tech, they have level bracket in place ingeniously working positively for them and they may wait for an opportuned time to find a thematic timing for an expac and drop the bomb for a world revamp like they did in Cata and Legion. SL is too early for this max level crunch excuse..

[Protar95]

You can't make a game appealing to people who judge based on a number with no knowledge of what that number actually means. 120 levels could take 1 hour to gain and yet you are saying people would still judge it as being to high. How do you design the game around that in order to get those people? Blizzard says types of customers are not worth designing for all the time.

The problem is, and always will be, the people that superficially judge something with no knowledge.

Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

[vertigo12]

Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

This various services exist as a way to cater to the needs of their new customers:
Recruit a friend and character boost which is doing its job ever since they were implemented.

[schwank05]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

We can only hope they leave the level cap at 60, the second it went over 70 it was just plain dumb. IMO it feels real shitty having to start a new character and have the absurd task or leveling 120 levels before you can play the game. I hope it is not only level 60, but that it takes at most 12-15 hours to level 1-60.

[Protar95]

This various services exist as a way to cater to the needs of their new customers:
Recruit a friend and character boost which is doing its job ever since they were implemented.

Ah so the solution is to ask new players to shell out for a character boost after already paying for the base game, the latest expansion and the subscription fee. Because that will surely convince them that WoW is less of an investment.

[rhorle]

Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

You can never market a game to people who judge only on superficial qualities with out learning the meaning of those things. Because even 60 could be "to high" if they have seen a game with only 10 levels. That is where your argument breaks down. There is always something else with a different level scheme, or even no levels, that would draw these types of people over WoW.

Level is meaningless and arbitrary with out knowing how those levels are gained. A person won't know that 60 is an "attainable" level cap anyways. Because 60 is just a number. Wouldn't 60 feel unattainable versus 30 as a level cap? 60 is not some universal standard for level caps. A level 60 cap will still dissuade the superficial crowd.

[huth]

Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

I'd say you're vastly overestimating the prevalence of your own standards of judging things. A new player may not consider this a relevant piece of information, and not base his estimation of playtime on it at all. If they're familiar with CRPGs, they know level caps mean nothing in regards to time played. If they aren't, they have no standard of judgement. If they're unfamiliar with MMORPGs, they may not have any expectation of reaching the cap. In any of these cases, knowing the level cap is meaningless information.

[schwank05]

Yes, you could make 120 levels last just one hour. But if you've never played wow before and hear it has 120 levels, are you going to think it only lasts one hour? No, you're going to think that it will be a large investment of time. There are hundreds and thousands of potential games out there and all of them are to one degree or another an investment of time and money for potential customers. With such a crowded market, games will be judged superficially and people who might otherwise end up enjoying a game might easily pass it by simply because those superficial aspects weren't appealing. It's Blizzard's job to market WoW to customers and a level cap which is high enough to feel like an achievement but not so high that it feels unattainable is best.

Yes this right here. I have since January 2005 when I started playing wow played for the sole purpose of getting loot, I raid, Dungeon, PVP to get loot so I have always hated questing since I set foot in WC way back when I decided that that was what I wanted from games, group content and bosses that died and dropped loot even if it was not for me it was so much cooler back in the day when you killed a boss and looked in his pockets and saw what he was hiding. Now it takes forever to get to max level and even with the 100% boost takes twice as long as it should. I can only hope the the part of the game that I have seen 100's of times over 15 years is fast and easy to get through.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say you're vastly overestimating the prevalence of your own standards of judging things. A new player may not consider this a relevant piece of information, and not base his estimation of playtime on it at all. If they're familiar with CRPGs, they know level caps mean nothing in regards to time played. If they aren't, they have no standard of judgement. If they're unfamiliar with MMORPGs, they may not have any expectation of reaching the cap. In any of these cases, knowing the level cap is meaningless information.

IDK I have played wow for a long time and with each 5-10 levels it has prevented me from leveling alliance characters because fuck questing and taking that long to level. I looked at SWTOR back in the day and said... wow only 5o levels ill give this a try then when they gave a 250% bonus exp for story quests I leveled all characters in 2 weeks to see the stories. I looked at GW2 and say 80 levels and did a hard pass until someone hacked my account and leveled my character for me. Now I look at lvl 60 cap in wow and think, hey I can get into that again.

[Ealyssa]

I'm sure someone can write you an interface addon that replaces the current level number with one that does lvl*2+10. A normal person would probably realize how pointless this bitching is because that is all that it takes to fix your issue.

You understand the argument goes both way right ? If it's stupid to be against a pointless switch, it also is stupid to be for the pointless switch...

Don't fix if it ain't broke situation.

[Protar95]

You can never market a game to people who judge only on superficial qualities with out learning the meaning of those things. Because even 60 could be "to high" if they have seen a game with only 10 levels. That is where your argument breaks down. There is always something else with a different level scheme, or even no levels, that would draw these types of people over WoW.

Level is meaningless and arbitrary with out knowing how those levels are gained. A person won't know that 60 is an "attainable" level cap anyways. Because 60 is just a number. Wouldn't 60 feel unattainable versus 30 as a level cap? 60 is not some universal standard for level caps. A level 60 cap will still dissuade the superficial crowd.

Again - there are hundreds and thousands of games for customers to choose from. People will make superficial judgements on purchases. It's absurd to suggest that blizzard shouldn't try to make the game outwardly marketable based on the idea that only people who do lots of research before purchasing a game will stick with said game. There are plenty of potential customers out there who could make a snap judgement on wow and end up loving it.

And of course different customers will have different thresholds for what is too high (or too low) of a cap. Blizzard can only strive pick the option which they think will appeal to the most people.

[vertigo12]

Ah so the solution is to ask new players to shell out for a character boost after already paying for the base game, the latest expansion and the subscription fee. Because that will surely convince them that WoW is less of an investment.

What I am saying is the character boost and recruit a friend were made to ease the entire leveling experience.

Recruit a friend is for those who invite new potential subscribers to the game who were invited by those who are already subscribed and with the perks included on the program to make it appealing and enjoyable as compared to just playing everything by yourself. Sure you may do that if you're the type of person who wishes to do so and enjoy things at his own pace or do things based on what he like with this game, in his own way or as he please.

As for the character boost. Which is more appealing to a customer? A level boost to a game with 10 levels only, a game with 60 as max or level cap or a game with 130? What's the point here? Numbers are arbitrary and having something with a lower or higher number depends on the goal what you want to achieve. These three examples are just one and the same avail a character boost to max level however one of them is more appealing and perhaps you would say the last would be the one which is appealing to you.

Another example:
For those who might try a game with lower level people will question the opcontent or what the game can offer. Is this what all you got? With a higher character level there is an anticipation build up for achievements to be reached, world's to explore and things to do. With having a higher number it shows how much you can do.

[Daevied]

Oh, so you are finding ways to kill wow premanently. This lvl 60 cap forever will be the most effective thing to do that

[rhorle]

And of course different customers will have different thresholds for what is too high (or too low) of a cap. Blizzard can only strive pick the option which they think will appeal to the most people.

But why is that 60? Why not 30? Of course there are tons of games for people to pick. That is why you do not sacrifice the design of your game for people that don't want to learn anything about your game. You don't design to hook the superficial because they don't care. You design a good game and people will play it.

120 is no different then 60 if you know nothing about the game and the requirements needed to reach both.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You understand the argument goes both way right ? If it's stupid to be against a pointless switch, it also is stupid to be for the pointless switch...

Don't fix if it ain't broke situation.

Actually it wouldn't. It would require new players to dive head first into addons to fix the perception that the game is bogged down with a load of outdated shite. Not to mention that 40 lvls in 12 hours is already fast. Doing a hundret or more with most of them being pointless would still leave an unprofessional impression on many new players, as it seems like a half-assed overhault in a p2w mobile game.

[Unholyground]

Well, I have a feeling they might just do something like that. But I have to imagine that at some point, the scaling and squishing down will get a little difficult to make work?

Plus it would mean that old content will technically never be outleveled anymore. You would be able to get at most 10 levels above BfA content, 0 over Shadowlands, 0 over any future expansion.

In all honesty all previous content should scale to max level and reward you with relevant gear if they wanted to have an amazing game, think about how many raids and dungeons that would open up to people and guilds.