Bernie Asks Delegates to "Tone it Down"

[Muzjhath]

It really isn't. The democrat party knows that they can get away with fielding bad candidates because their voters will still vote for it as long as the candidates are marginally less shit than the republican alternatives.

And democrat hardliners are the ones responsible for enabling that sort of behavior.



You just outlined the specific type of reaction that lets politicians incrementally shift the goalpost further to the side of extremity.

You know, political appeasement.

The problems come with "Well, I won't vote for you then! I might just stay home and not vote at all!"
When you get there. Why should they cater to you? When they might cater slightly not to you, can get a person who will vote 100% of the time. This is my argument.

If you read my post. My argument is for the politically disatisfied people in the US to organize in the grassroots. While keeping the federal as "least bad". Because changing the US from the top-down is impossible. However, changing it from the bottom up with a 7-2 conservative supreme court will also be impossible.

And who would vote for that party? Only 50% of democratic party members say that they are liberal. The vast majority of people in the states are moderate or conservative. A new party would only benefit the GOP because the left would split their vote but I am sure that's your intention or at the very least it's to get people not to vote.

Well, if you go about it the right way. Looking at the long game. It could work.

However, that wouldn't be "go for the POTUS!" It would be "go for the states". And then jam the economic rightwing people together into one party getting the overton window back to where it was pre-southern strategy.
This can't happen from the top down. It has to happen from the bottom up. Americans will however, probably be lazy and just whine about the federal level stupid.

[Gray_Matter]

voted to confirm Scalia!

Just stop with the talking points. For example, the Scalia vote was 98–0. Not one person voted against Scalia. They voted for him based on his qualifications for the position, not his ideals. Eventually you will run out of cherry's to pick. Thank you for confirming my first point.

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The problems come with "Well, I won't vote for you then! I might just stay home and not vote at all!"
When you get there. Why should they cater to you? When they might cater slightly not to you, can get a person who will vote 100% of the time. This is my argument.

If you read my post. My argument is for the politically disatisfied people in the US to organize in the grassroots. While keeping the federal as "least bad". Because changing the US from the top-down is impossible. However, changing it from the bottom up with a 7-2 conservative supreme court will also be impossible.

This, exactly. When the youth start voting reliably then they will get people taking more notice of their ideals and the politicians will start catering to that group. That means voting when you don't like the person because that person aligns with your ideals more. Yes, it's a compromise, but it's the type of thing that will eventually get you things like ranked choice voting and banned gerrymandering. The whole "burn it all down" and "my guy didn't win so there is no point in voting" positions don't make any sense.

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Well, if you go about it the right way. Looking at the long game. It could work.

However, that wouldn't be "go for the POTUS!" It would be "go for the states". And then jam the economic rightwing people together into one party getting the overton window back to where it was pre-southern strategy.
This can't happen from the top down. It has to happen from the bottom up. Americans will however, probably be lazy and just whine about the federal level stupid.

How much damage would be done in the long run? It's much easier to change a party from within by voting in people like AOC than it is creating a new party. Without ranked choice voting, a third party vote will only benefit the GOP. There isn't enough liberals to win that way.

It's also a rather dumb position. Just look at how different the blue states are to the red states. Simple things like mail in ballots. Winning states is just as important as winning on the federal level. Blue states are doing a lot for liberal causes. Not as much as the left want but they are doing a lot. What the left need to do is organize grass roots, yes, but push liberal candidates in the strong blue areas and moderates in the swing areas.

[Muzjhath]

This, exactly. When the youth start voting reliably then they will get people taking more notice of their ideals and the politicians will start catering to that group. That means voting when you don't like the person because that person aligns with your ideals more. Yes, it's a compromise, but it's the type of thing that will eventually get you things like ranked choice voting and banned gerrymandering. The whole "burn it all down" and "my guy didn't win so there is no point in voting" positions don't make any sense.

On the whole it seems political engagement in the US is very low. Not even with voting, but organization in general. There's a subset that is super engaged. There are those who vote. And there's the apathetic. There don't seem to be that many who are "engaged" wtihout any qualification. Either you live and breathe it fairly deeply. Or you just show up to vote every 2/4 years. If you care at all.
When it should be "the 10% who live and breathe it", "the 40% who care and shop around. Discuss it with strangers at the pub in a friendly way", "the 25-35% who show up to vote as their parents always have". And then the 15-25% who just don't care.

And yes. I can absolutely get that someone who wish Social Democracy was alive and well in the US doesn't want to vote for Biden in the 2020 Presidential election.
However voting Green won't help your cause.

Voting for a Social Democratic state senator in Washington State might.

How much damage would be done in the long run? It's much easier to change a party from within by voting in people like AOC than it is creating a new party. Without ranked choice voting, a third party vote will only benefit the GOP. There isn't enough liberals to win that way.

It's also a rather dumb position. Just look at how different the blue states are to the red states. Simple things like mail in ballots. Winning states is just as important as winning on the federal level. Blue states are doing a lot for liberal causes. Not as much as the left want but they are doing a lot. What the left need to do is organize grass roots, yes, but push liberal candidates in the strong blue areas and moderates in the swing areas.

Well, I see this in a perspective of at least 20 years. Probably closer to 50 years. With the vision of activating the US electorate so that voting participation is 70%. To PosPosPos I stated the whole push the right candidate etc depending on where you live in my original post on this topic.

[Acidbaron]

Lines up with your avatar.

Unlike his location...., but you already knew that.

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On the whole it seems political engagement in the US is very low. Not even with voting, but organization in general. There's a subset that is super engaged. There are those who vote. And there's the apathetic. There don't seem to be that many who are "engaged" wtihout any qualification. Either you live and breathe it fairly deeply. Or you just show up to vote every 2/4 years. If you care at all.
When it should be "the 10% who live and breathe it", "the 40% who care and shop around. Discuss it with strangers at the pub in a friendly way", "the 25-35% who show up to vote as their parents always have". And then the 15-25% who just don't care.

And yes. I can absolutely get that someone who wish Social Democracy was alive and well in the US doesn't want to vote for Biden in the 2020 Presidential election.
However voting Green won't help your cause.

Voting for a Social Democratic state senator in Washington State might.

He is an alt-right supporter from Poland pretending to be a leftist American. Don't waste your time.

[Gray_Matter]

He is an alt-right supporter from Poland pretending to be a leftist American. Don't waste your time.

That makes sense. Thanks for the heads up.

[Muzjhath]

Unlike his location...., but you already knew that.

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He is an alt-right supporter from Poland pretending to be a leftist American. Don't waste your time.

I'm ignoring that person and responding first to PosPosPos, then to Gray_Matter. Well aware of the clowns.

[Acidbaron]

That makes sense. Thanks for the heads up.

You're welcome, others had made me aware of this, a few have gone as far as creating links to his posts in signatures to reveal his true nature. The more people know the less they get baited into some absurd game.

[Gray_Matter]

Well, I see this in a perspective of at least 20 years. Probably closer to 50 years. With the vision of activating the US electorate so that voting participation is 70%. To PosPosPos I stated the whole push the right candidate etc depending on where you live in my original post on this topic.

The problem with this for liberals is that court positions are lifetime appointments. That makes the senate extremely important. The GOP are appointing younger and younger people to the courts. On the regional side of things, splitting votes would result in very blue states going red. The consequences of those votes would be devastating to the poorer people in those states. If there was ranked choice voting then there wouldn't be a problem because people could happily vote for a third party so people would be better off pushing to get something like that passed first.

[szechuan]

[*]Both groups aren't pragmatic and get heavily emotionally invested instead of looking at what is better for them on a practical level.

I consider myself a Practical Progressive that will vote for Biden because it's the more responsible thing to do IMO.

Progressives who aren't voting for Biden are just Protest Voting which may help Trump in the end, there's not much for Progressives to do at this point with the Presidential Elections but push and support Progressive Policies and other Progressive Politicians in 2020.

Biden is definitely not what Progressives wanted, but Considering what is happening currently, I would easily vote for Biden over Trump.

I wouldn't blame progressives for not voting Biden.

[JohnBrown1917]

Sanders became such a pussy.

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Just stop with the talking points. For example, the Scalia vote was 98–0. Not one person voted against Scalia. They voted for him based on his qualifications for the position, not his ideals. Eventually you will run out of cherry's to pick. Thank you for confirming my first point.
.

So all senators at that time where assholes? Man, who knew. I'm truly surprised.

[Gray_Matter]

I consider myself a Practical Progressive that will vote for Biden because it's the more responsible thing to do IMO.

That's why I said hardcore left. There are a lot of pragmatic progressives. Unfortunately, there are a fair chunk that are not. There was a lot of people who didn't vote in 2016 and the last I heard, Susan Sarandon was still blindly saying that Clinton would have been worse for progressive values. I still see people saying here that Clinton would have appointed conservative justices to SCOTUS.

[Muzjhath]

The problem with this for liberals is that court positions are lifetime appointments. That makes the senate extremely important. The GOP are appointing younger and younger people to the courts. On the regional side of things, splitting votes would result in very blue states going red. The consequences of those votes would be devastating to the poorer people in those states. If there was ranked choice voting then there wouldn't be a problem because people could happily vote for a third party so people would be better off pushing to get something like that passed first.

That's why I stress local, county, and state elections.
Work on that level. Keep Federal as is until you've got a large enough movement to either subsume a party, (say, working through the Justice Democrats or outside of any of the two major parties). Or go Federal and actually snag enough of the vote to kill one of the two major parties in 2 cycles. Yes, one cycle of that will probably be lost. Thus it's a long-term game plan.
It also won't be the first time it happens in US history. But it's a thing I feel is needed.
And why I stressed playing it smart.

[JohnBrown1917]

Reminder to always show uncritical support to your local liberal-conservative. Don't criticize any coups/drone strikes/wars they back, or any racist statements they made or how they have committed sexual assault!

Be a good citizen and do this for the rest of your life!

[Snardhaul]

Let's be honest, my post effectively gave you an opportunity to retreat from the thread, which you took. Though I see the withdrawal didn't last.

And that "User Notice," particularly the first bit, was just an attempt at trying to get people to stop pointing out things like the new location you've given yourself, which everyone already knows to be untrue.

If you cultivate such a reputation for the things you specifically have on the forum, you shouldn't be surprised when people keep you to said reputation. People were not bullying you, you are not a victim. The website isn't against you. If you can't handle the reaction to the posting reputation you've garnered, you probably shouldn't have gone that direction.

And, just because it bugs me, it is "pique my interest."

As I recall when I responded to one of your personal attacks, pointing out that which is obvious, that you are a pathetic loser who spends all their time making thousands of posts no one reads, you cried all the way to your pet moderators like a fucking puppy.

If you are going to try to bully people then at least do it unashamedly rather than in the spineless little anal hall monitor manner you are doing so now. At least don't be so fucking weak.

[Snardhaul]

It's always the same 4-5 people that come in here, like a little clique of bullies, who:
A) don't do anything but call people Trump supporters, childish because of their voting preferences, start making this into some shitshow about where I'm from or not (as if it matters at all)
B) completely try to derail the thread to try and get me infracted because I speak out against the brown-shirting that is going on in it

You're one of those people who engages in that group mania and thus of whom I have a very low opinion.

I think you know this already but it is worth pointing out that every time you post you tear them a new asshole while remaining dignified and that's why they respond with this crap. It is an indication you won the argument. I must say I admire your restraint.

To be fair Biden is such an asshole in so many different ways it is really impossible to defend him using legitimate arguments.

[Snardhaul]

Nor could I care less about your opinion of me.

Let's talk about you. Let's talk about the type of person that spends every minute of every day supporting a segregationist, a homophobe, a warmonger, a liar, probably a rapist. What sort of person is that?

[Endus]

Of course, any thread about Bernie devolves into Democrat party hardliners insisting it's patently not their fault for fielding deeply troubled and compromised candidates; instead blaming anyone else who refuse to buy into it.

You mean "the entire body of Democratic voters", not "Democratic Party hardliners".

And you mean "for not finding Sanders a convincing alternative", not "fielding deeply troubled and compromised candidates".

The outcome of the primary isn't the "fault" of some elite cadre. It's the whim of the voters. Sanders didn't find nearly enough support. Biden was vastly preferred by Democratic voters. That's not anyone's "fault", but if you're throwing a hissy fit and sulking because not nearly enough people agree with you? Yeah, that is your fault.

[Snardhaul]

I don't even know who you are lol You're nothing but an angry little irrelevance.

So why did you feel the need to attack me (and now Rochana) in the first place. You come out with these personal attacks and then cry like a little girl when people are mean to you in response. You started this shit now at least have the balls to follow it through rather than run away from a fight you started.

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I dunno, mate. You'd have to point them out to me. Especially that "every minute of every day" part, that doesn't sound healthy. You should always take breaks from your computer screen!

We can see your post counter idiot.

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The outcome of the primary isn't the "fault" of some elite cadre. It's the whim of the voters.

Yeah it couldn't possibly be the case that the corporate democrats could use billions of dollars of corporate donations and their total control of the Democrat media to subvert the perceptions of the voters. Makes you wonder why they take all that corporate money - they had the BEST candidate, they couldn't possibly lose.

Would you like buy a bridge?

[Grimbold21]

It's always the same 4-5 people that come in here, like a little clique of bullies, who:
A) don't do anything but call people Trump supporters, childish because of their voting preferences

Because those accusations have a factual basis.

You outright said, and paraphrasing here, that you'd rather have Trump in the WH for 4 more years and have it all burn to the ground just to send a message to the Democratic Party. Why? Because they are not progressive enough.

This when everyone but the most loony Trump supporters knows that Trump is bad.

[Machismo]

So why did you feel the need to attack me (and now Rochana) in the first place. You come out with these personal attacks and then cry like a little girl when people are mean to you in response. You started this shit now at least have the balls to follow it through rather than run away from a fight you started.

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We can see your post counter idiot.

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Yeah it couldn't possibly be the case that the corporate democrats could use billions of dollars of corporate donations and their total control of the Democrat media to subvert the perceptions of the voters. Makes you wonder why they take all that corporate money - they had the BEST candidate, they couldn't possibly lose.

Would you like buy a bridge?

Bernie spent considerably more than Biden did during the primaries.

Millions more people voted for Biden.

Bernie is not a victim, deal with it.

I find it odd that you complain about people making personal attacks, but you juts called someone an idiot. I guess this is Irony Day.