Sylvanas Character Assassination

[omeomorfismo]

Then go play LOTRO. There you can literally be a monster.

so why blizz let us to play forsaken, warlocks, dks, assassins and shadow priests?

[Darth-Piekus]

Let's see. The Death Knights got their free will and then pledged themselves to defend Azeroth. Rogues can be assassins and spies that can work out for Azeroth. Take Mathias Shaw for example. He is an assassin and a spy. Warlocks use the power of the fel in the service of Azeroth. Shadowpriests use the power of the Void and Shadow for the service of Azeroth. The Forsaken PC is in fact a hero that saved Azeroth many times. The only difference is that these classes can use morally grey actions to achieve that result where other classes like Paladins, Warriors, Shamans can achieve that result using more morally white actions.

[Super Dickmann]

And Dickmann every single race can be worse than the Scourge if they really wanted. The fact remains that the Forsaken were supposed to be something different from the Scourge. Instead of being a bad Scourge wanabee they should have tried something different. The same goes for Garrosh. Instead of being a hotheaded Hellscream how about a different person? After all the game's philosophy is based on good beating evil in the end so seeing some people wanting to play the bad guy and win simply cannot work on Warcraft because that is not what Warcraft is about. There are other games better on that domain where you can play a villain and win something but these games also depict the good guys doing morally grey actions.

Please tag me if you're replying by name since otherwise I have to go back to track the post. What you're pushing is moral equivalence that you don't really buy and nobody does. Quite obviously a Draenei has far less potential to be bad than an undead and it informs far less of their appeal as a race. You can have bad draenei, but they're outliers, the same way nakedly altruistic Forsaken are outliers. They do not inform the core of the race and they're unique precisely because they provide a different spin from the norm. The Forsaken were from the very start intended as the darkest possible playable race - that doesn't make them equivalent to the Scourge in the same way the Scourge is a markedly different antagonist from say the Mogu or the Old Gods. Being dark is not the same as being evil either - a faction that's morally on the blacker side of the gray like the Forsaken nevertheless has ample motivation to oppose all of these groups and to cooperate purely for reasons of self-preservation. That's why Sylvanas was against say, Garrosh's war, back in Cataclysm and why Forsaken have by far the most quests in their own stories where you kill elements of their race that have gone omnicidal.

The Illidari and Ebon Blade also work to fight big bads, as do Forsaken, but their methods and reasons for doing so are altogether different from that of say, a draenei paladin. That's part of the appeal of the experience they provide. Withdrawing these qualities, especially in such a thoroughly hamhanded fashion as was done in BTS is both not a natural development from a story writing sense and also strikes at that particular niche that they were meant to fulfill in terms of story experience. And, given that you routinely do the shit the Forsaken do as part of your rotation and Maldraxxus is one of the upcoming joinable covenants for everyone, Blizzard have neither the ability nor the intention to cease providing that experience, they've simply switched vectors to something blander and more easily consumed by non-Forsaken players.

@Magnagarde

While the Eastern Horde elements weren't strictly necessary, the WC3 Horde as itself had nothing going for it in terms of long-form storytelling or the possibility thereof. The only race that did have a lot going for it was the orcs, while the others only grew dimension once Garrosh was in charge which both brought back a lot of what made the orcs what they are and also allowed the tauren and trolls to be something other than skinnier/furrier and less characterized orcs who were there as sidekicks.

[Shiza]

The blood elves threw them out for practicing magic that was a clear and present danger to the source of their lives and livelihoods. The Alliance doesn't have a race dependent on a source of magic that the mere presence of a void elf can destroy.

The Blood Elves just tortured a holy Naaru to death a couple of years prior, so they are hypocrites for banishing a group of researchers for their scientific interests. And yeah, it doesn't matter, if the Horde oppresses researchers because it doesn't fit their agenda and the Alliance allows them in and lets them practice their scientific interests freely, then the Alliance is objectively the faction that values freedom more.

[thrill]

The Blood Elves just tortured a holy Naaru to death a couple of years prior, so they are hypocrites for banishing a group of researchers for their scientific interests. And yeah, it doesn't matter, if the Horde oppresses researchers because it doesn't fit their agenda and the Alliance allows them in and lets them practice their scientific interests freely, then the Alliance is objectively the faction that values freedom more.

The blood elves that turned M'uru into a void being weren't a part of the horde, it was Kael's forces, which the horde fought against.

If you'd play the nightborne allied race questline, you'd see the mere presence of Alleria almost resulted in the destruction/corruption of the sunwell. What else should the blood elves have done? Essentially collectively commit suicide by allowing the void elves to stay in Quel'thalas?

[Shiza]

The blood elves that turned M'uru into a void being weren't a part of the horde, it was Kael's forces, which the horde fought against.

If you'd play the nightborne allied race questline, you'd see the mere presence of Alleria almost resulted in the destruction/corruption of the sunwell. What else should the blood elves have done? Essentially collectively commit suicide by allowing the void elves to stay in Quel'thalas?

So you are in favor of restricting peoples fundamental freedoms for some perceived greater good? Maybe the Blood Elves should just have let the Sunwell die, after their Prince used it to nearly summon Kil'jaeden into the world, proving that their kin is unable to handle this power responsibly. Like, you know, the Nightborn did.

But then again, we are speaking about a race which has done nothing good for the world outside of helping to prevent two Legion invasions after being responsible for both of them but then claims that the race who for 10.000 years dedicated its entire civilization to protect Azeroth somehow hid on trees. Blood Elves are hypocrites by their very nature. Which fits well into the Horde which was traditionally lead by a race in which people seemingly have to re-affirm their masculinity through genocide but then play the victims when somebody calls them out on their bullshit.

[Combatbutler]

I disagree again considering how many Forsaken chose the other way. If they weren't meant to be decept people what is the point of saving the world so many times? The whole phrase can only get you at some point but in the long run it simply won't work.

They were the absolute minority and it made them something special, forsaken nowadays are just humans, negating being undead entirely, it used to fuck you up really bad, nowadays it has almost no drawbacks, except maybe looking bad and that is it.

[cparle87]

I'm sure Tyrande will go full nazi when she sees a Void Elf under Mount Hyjal

Except Tyrande doesn't have any authority there. The Cenarion Circle and Guardians of Hyjal are neutral, not Alliance. And void elves aren't a thread to the Well of Eternity because it's not part holy, purely arcane.

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The Blood Elves just tortured a holy Naaru to death a couple of years prior, so they are hypocrites for banishing a group of researchers for their scientific interests. And yeah, it doesn't matter, if the Horde oppresses researchers because it doesn't fit their agenda and the Alliance allows them in and lets them practice their scientific interests freely, then the Alliance is objectively the faction that values freedom more.

That was Kael'thas who did that. And they banished a group of researchers after warning them that their way of magic was a threat to the very existence of their people, which it is. Also nice touch with the Alliance letting them in, considering they did the same thing to Kel'thuzad which led to him falling into the Lich King's hands. As for the "values freedom" dig, absolute hogwash. That's the reason the nightborne joined the Horde, because they knew the Alliance, particularly Tyrande and the night elves, would force them to conform. The void elves are no better than the warlocks in the Alliance. Several places in Stormwind your character is barely tolerated and told to move along quickly. Only Alleria's name's weight got them in.

[Ardenaso]

Except Tyrande doesn't have any authority there. The Cenarion Circle and Guardians of Hyjal are neutral, not Alliance. And void elves aren't a thread to the Well of Eternity because it's not part holy, purely arcane.

And who is the leader of them? Sure the wife has influence to that. Threat or not, Tyrande/Malfurion doesn't wish for an Illidan/Dathremar 2.0; else they would've given Vereesa/Auric or Mordent a vial to let them make a new Sunwell 2.0

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And who is the leader of them? Sure the wife has influence to that. Threat or not, Tyrande/Malfurion doesn't wish for an Illidan/Dathremar 2.0; else they would've given Vereesa/Auric or Mordent a vial to let them make a new Sunwell 2.0

nvm, I accidentally moved a goalpost there; but why wouldn't the void be excited or ecstatic near the Well of Eternity 2.0?

[Maxilian]

Well, Arthas yes, but she never encouraged Kael, he just felt he deserved her more because he was an elf and thus more worthy then the human prince. Their rivalry fueled by each's hubris is one of the reasons they both ended up badly.

Kalec is still fine though. But it is true that Jaina's loved one have a tendency to meet bad ends. Family, friends, students, lovers... all because she tried hard to make peace with the Horde.

To be fair, for Kael, at first he was unsure if he wanted to pursue Jaina cause, even though he liked her, she was 16 and he had a couple of hundreds of years, making things awkward for him

[Varodoc]

I'm sure Tyrande will go full nazi when she sees a Void Elf under Mount Hyjal

Why? She has no reason to hate void elves. And this is the same person who set Illidan free, when Illidan jeopardyzed night elf society much more than the void elves ever did (which they never did in the first place).

[Ardenaso]

Why? She has no reason to hate void elves. And this is the same person who set Illidan free, when Illidan jeopardyzed night elf society much more than the void elves ever did (which they never did in the first place).

She doesn't allow any magical elf in general near the Well of Eternity 2.0

[Varodoc]

She doesn't allow any magical elf in general near the Well of Eternity 2.0

She doesn't have a say in the matter anyway. Hyjal is not under her control.

[Ardenaso]

She doesn't have a say in the matter anyway. Hyjal is not under her control.

I'm going to move the goalpost a bit here, but she's the wife of the one who controls it and if they would really allow it - the High Elves and Shen'dralar would've been allowed to take vials from it to have their own Well of Eternity way long before as early as Cataclysm

[Powerogue]

Let's see. The Death Knights got their free will and then pledged themselves to defend Azeroth. Rogues can be assassins and spies that can work out for Azeroth. Take Mathias Shaw for example. He is an assassin and a spy. Warlocks use the power of the fel in the service of Azeroth. Shadowpriests use the power of the Void and Shadow for the service of Azeroth. The Forsaken PC is in fact a hero that saved Azeroth many times. The only difference is that these classes can use morally grey actions to achieve that result where other classes like Paladins, Warriors, Shamans can achieve that result using more morally white actions.

Yeah pretty much. I think I had covered earlier in the thread that, even playing a forsaken death knight Sylvanas loyalist, the combination of the three most morally grey options available in game, you are, at worst, a sadist using dark magic who is frequently manipulated by evil forces.

Sylvanas is evil.

[Mace]

Also Suramar was an intricately plotted waste. Unlike BFA it was actually very well executed - like BFA and like its TBC progenitor story, it ultimately produced a bland, thoroughly uncompelling result. The Nightborne at the end have no more story hooks that couldn't be achieved just as well with blood elves. Or, pains me as it does to admit it and agree with @Mace, Alliance-side so they can play off of the Night Elves in a way that's different to what the blood elves already provide.

Sometimes people mistake my frequent night elf posting to mean I only care about them, it's not true, the reason I write a lot about them is largely because I get underdog syndrome with them like I use to get with orcs in classic. Also a lot of people don't seem to get them and I spend most of my time writing about them challenging assumptions and interpretations I genuinely believe the lore doesn't support and usually feel the need to prove it most of the time.

Sometimes people think I am incapable of looking at things regarding the night elves objectively, but actually it's the lens I mostly look at them through, aside from the rare occasion I post wishlists, I actually tend to say what I genuinely feel would make the story better and more interesting, and sometimes that may seem to a jealous person that I am biased towards or wanting too much for the night elves, but actually it isn't, I am weighing it up against the writing down they've received consistently and so don't' feel an upturn is unreasonable - it comes across as biased in favour of them because it is advocating for something better for them.

However not once do they question whether things like Highborne/Nightborne are (from an in-game sense) better for Night elves, they never give me the chance to even get that far in a desperate attempt to try and convince me the arcane isn't meant for night elves, so most of my time ends up addressing that. Bottom line is that development of that facet would be a lot more interesting amongst the night elves both in a positive and negative sense. There is a lot about the night elves that is tied to their pre-sundering life, areas unexplored that can be quite interesting, the whole thing with the stars, arcane, the priesthood that seems to be an arcane based one, the earlier interactions with druids/priesthood and arcane wielders which by the time of the invasion the nature wielding part was a thing of the past in their over-arcanised society.

The struggles of overcoming prejudices, the strive to regain their pride and civilization - I mean this is the first time their group is actually growing and building in 10k years (any of their groups whether long vigil, Eldre'thalas, Moonguard etc - they've literally huddled in their isolation states and done the same things for 10k years) - change would be interesting.

There is also looking into embracing the future, a Highborne/Nightborne finds it hard to believe why anyone would want to use anything other than the arcane, then if they are truly repentant and have their sanity restored with their addiction cured - you have the Nightborne who greatly venerated the night elves for 10 k years, paying homage to all the brave heroes that died defending the city (they believe d everyone was wiped out -this would include the likes of Tyrande and the to others who marched from Suramar to take out of Azshara and the demons - they were convinced it was a suicide mission so stayed - but they greatly revere t heir sacrifice),, now to discover they are alive and succeeded, and then observe how they've had to live - now if you're a good person - there is a lot of awe in that like (how did you pull that off?), there is also guilt (because you cowered away and didn't step up), you'd also be horrified to see how simple a life they've had to live believing they had to put away arcane magic (Which your expertise knows full well wasn't necessary (nvm your addiction, but you have good reason for that, as bad as it is). You're grateful to be free of it, and now you want to convince ALL, not just some of your kaldorei kin of the wonders and goodness that comes from wielding the arcane and embracing their legacy which you believe together combined with their great nature achievements and the priesthood restored to it's full functioning capacity - would make your people great.

The dynamic that can play out here is Nightborne on the one hand trying their best to be noble upstanding examples of the best of kaldorei culture that the Darnassians left behind and restore their shattered confidence in the arcane and their ability to wield it responsibly - but you have a totally different reaction from the druids, who fully understand all the pros and cons, but understand a basic truth their arcanised kin do not, you don't have to have progress and development in the arcane to have a rich and fulfilling life or even live,

then there is the interesting development to see these very intelligent clever High/Nightborne types actually being scolded by your humble rural forest walker - and to find out that amongst the night elves, the highest prestige is amongst the druids, and to see snotty stuck up types, defer to them..I mean, they respect power too, and Malfurion is one of the most powerful outside achieving things globally with nature that the Nelves could never quite do with all their arcane mastery..

It would be quite the interesting situation - and that just the good side of it. Tug of war of arcane types trying to restore their nobility and respect amongst a wider culture that actually has gone beyond that starry eyed complete abandoned awe of the arcane the whole race use to have - nothing like the sundering to snap you out of it and see that it wasn't as holy grail as your people had once thought even though you still respect it, and some of your kin follow its path. And the priest/druid types smiling as if to little children who haven't quite discovered an important lesson of life.


Then what about those who truly haven't turned new leaf, and the conflict that can arise, those who go off kilter to amass power for themselves, imagine that her, a Nightborne/Highborne community freaking out to try and deal with the rogue lest their foolishness bring the caste and the craft into disrepute again, and then the Maiev types who have an axe to grind that they can't let go of,.

The wonder element is also quite interesting, like the night elves finally getting into swing again after 10 k years, having now fully fledge arcane community in the Nightborne (much larger than the Highborne they had gotten so far), and now pretty much as influential and numerous as the druid and priest orders (this isn't factoring the WoT losses) - it's like what would the night elves become if they were firing on all their cylinders, which includes druidism, the arcane, the priesthood, even the demon hunters, all working in tandem?

Post legion would have been perfect, as the destruction of the legion actually ends a 10,000 year saga, quest complete, mission over, now they can breathe again, they can live again, they can advance and move forward again as a people - that cohesive element that was missing in the long vigil group, and that freedom to expand beyond city walls missing from the city groups.

There was soooo much in it for the night elves if the Nightborne had gone there. This I just a snap shot of it, I can already think of several other nuances, and possibilities , but I don't wan this turning into another essay you likely wouldn't read. The Nightborne are wasted on the horde, they aren't surplus, not really bringing anything new or that interesting, just eye candy, a pretty city, that's about it. The way they are done, they are just falling into being blood elf sidekicks, extras that you can simply replace some Belf npcs with or groups with that exactly the same could not be achieved. They could have gone so much further with the night elf community. Their identity is in danger of being swallowed up too, because people are far more interested in the blood elves, especially on the horde, an allied race like the Nightborne won't generate enough of its own focus or identity, and then there is the matter of developing the same thing on the night elf side with the Highborne as most of those interested in the race and that part of it are on the alliance side (if they didn't already reroll Nightborne - I know some did)

to treat the Nightborne well, you would have to develop them, which means bringing a lot of kaldorei culture over.. but as an allied race, they have enough problem telling enough story for the core races, which their are 7 on the horde, with every other allied race being a member offshoot of one of the cores, except the Nightborne who's core is on the night elves, so this naturally means they're actually not going to likely get unique development, just lumped in with the blood elves fore everything = purple night elven looking blood elves with no cultural uniqueness and individuality.

Whereas if they were with he night elves it would be easy, you can show that portion and have interesting developments and stories every time you come to the night elves, being a core race themselves, they warrant their own attention, and their allied race being involved is just part of it, no extra focus. The void elves face a similar issue.

The solution could actually be continue to write the Nightborne in with the night elf story mainly, but having the flavour of being horde allies create some interesting and unique situations. Just like when you are writing blood elf stuff, you can involve the void elves too, and write an appropriate part that involves the alliance. The alliance get their shoe into Thalassian activity on a larger more meaningful scale, just like the horde get a shoe into kaldorei activity through this, both high elves and Highborne and their stories so far make this quite possible in both peaceful corporation and conflict ways, but not as organically as it would have been (at least not without considerable effort) if they hadn't crossed factions.

It's still workable, but it's one degree removed now, and blizzard would have to actually care enough to think oh, we can do this. Which I doubt they do. It's only fans like us that do.

[ashblond]

Just kill Sylvanas and Nathanos already.

They are the most annoying couple in wow history and most hated chars by players now.

Simply unbearable.

[Combatbutler]

They are the most annoying couple in wow history

Nothing beats Malfurion and Tyrande in that regard, legion saw to that.