The Doom of the Warlock

[Saltysquidoon]

Atleast they have mobility baseline. We are the only class without a baseline mobility.

Gate and port in SL.

Like I get Locks trade mobility for survivability compared to most classes, but talking about dk mobility is like asking for square wheels on your cart.

[FelPlague]

Gate and port in SL.

Like I get Locks trade mobility for survivability compared to most classes, but talking about dk mobility is like asking for square wheels on your cart.

Neither are mobility, they are preplanned escape...
You cant use a gateway or a circle to chase a target running away, or help you run away from something in the world.
they need to be set up ahead of time.

[Ichology]

DH is just a budget warrior. They are good, even very good, but not OP really.

I generally agree with your takes, but this one is a bit spicy. DH utility makes them a better take in like 9/10 scenarios in high keys. They are irreplaceable in almost every team pushing 27+'s view.

If we're talking us normal plebs who push anywhere from like 15-23 or something, than yeah, you probably won't be hurt bringing a really good warrior over a really good DH.

[Saltysquidoon]

Neither are mobility, they are preplanned escape...
You cant use a gateway or a circle to chase a target running away, or help you run away from something in the world.
they need to be set up ahead of time.

I mean you can macro gate so its basically blink with an extra click and juke with port but its w/e. If you want to argue locks need mobility while comparing them to the least mobile class in the game that's your business don't let me stop you.

[Kalisandra]

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with tap. It was perfectly fitting when all casters had a conserve phase and locks could choose the risky option of exchanging health to skip conserving mana (very flavourful).
The problem was in legion they tried to shoehorn it back in after removing mana managment from every other dps so it was just a feels bad 'let me get back to playing' button, not a greedy feels good button.

And frankly, Life Tap really means "Warlocks turn healer mana into damage", and unless Warlocks do more DPS when doing so than every other DPS spec (which they did at times in WoW's history) all that does is make them undesirable in healing intensive content. To make matters worse, 'Lock players had a tendency to hit Life Tap to regen mana outside of fights rather than drinking, making the healers drink, heal the 'Lock, and then drink some more (because a lot of the time the 'Lock would Tap as people finished drinking, not before they started) or go into the next fight lower on mana than they'd planned, which was selfish and annoying on the 'Lock players' part.

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while true, DA is a joke compared to pony and leap

Pony blows.

Death's Advance means you can't be slowed below 70% at any time, can't be slowed below 100% during DA, move at +30%, can't be knocked back or suffer forced movement effects, and it lasts 8s with a 45s CD. The Pony also has a 45s CD, lasts 3s for +100% movement, providing no snare resistance, etc. at all. You'd think Pony is great, but it's really not - it's too sensitive to snares (so you end up having to hit Freedom first) and is of too short a duration.

Also, a Paladin can only spec into having a second charge of Pony, but a DK can spec into Wraith Walk (1 min CD, +70% move for 4s, cannot be slowed, breaks when you act), and by doing so they're more mobile than a Paladin. Now, if Paladins got (or could spec into) the version of Pony that Prot could get in Legion, you'd have a case that Pony as good, but as it is it's not. Long Arm of the Law or Pursuit of Justice, thanks. I'm not greedy, I'm not asking for the Cata build where Rets could have PoJ and LAotL at the same time.

[LordVargK]

And frankly, Life Tap really means "Warlocks turn healer mana into damage", and unless Warlocks do more DPS when doing so than every other DPS spec (which they did at times in WoW's history) all that does is make them undesirable in healing intensive content. To make matters worse, 'Lock players had a tendency to hit Life Tap to regen mana outside of fights rather than drinking, making the healers drink, heal the 'Lock, and then drink some more (because a lot of the time the 'Lock would Tap as people finished drinking, not before they started) or go into the next fight lower on mana than they'd planned, which was selfish and annoying on the 'Lock players' part.

That's why locks have self heal and shields. They take less damage or can heal themselves, thus making the healers job easier. In exchange they have to heal our lifetap. I just don't understand why mana is a thing anymore anyways, if it serves no purpose. I vote to bring some lost flavour back to the warlock and return lifetap, coupled with an increase in self healing (like in Legion, but not like at the end of Legion). Or return Destruction to its MoP design: Mana was a ressource (it behaved more like Energy does) and you alternated Chaosbolts and incinerates to keep your downtime low. Also Lifetap is something that is traditionally cast on the move, meaning you would give the warlock something to do while moving.

[Kalisandra]

That's why locks have self heal and shields. They take less damage or can heal themselves, thus making the healers job easier. In exchange they have to heal our lifetap. I just don't understand why mana is a thing anymore anyways, if it serves no purpose. I vote to bring some lost flavour back to the warlock and return lifetap, coupled with an increase in self healing (like in Legion, but not like at the end of Legion). Or return Destruction to its MoP design: Mana was a ressource (it behaved more like Energy does) and you alternated Chaosbolts and incinerates to keep your downtime low. Also Lifetap is something that is traditionally cast on the move, meaning you would give the warlock something to do while moving.

TBH I don't mind Life Tap, it's the thoughtless way too many Locks used it that annoyed me. As for mana, currently it's there to stop hybrids (which really means sPriests, DPS Shamans, and Rets) from healing too much (they might heal Fury Warriors or something otherwise) and to give Arcane Mages something to do during boss fights and large m+ trash pulls other than push one button over and over.

[FelPlague]

I mean you can macro gate so its basically blink with an extra click and juke with port but its w/e. If you want to argue locks need mobility while comparing them to the least mobile class in the game that's your business don't let me stop you.

"Blink with an extra click"

And a cast time

and a time for the gateway to appear

and time to travel.

and a MUCH longer cooldown.

dks are FAR more mobile then warlocks, again, warlocks are the only class with 0 baseline mobility.

https://puu.sh/FNOtp/8ab783bf4d.mp4
Every 1.5 mins, can be intterupted.
https://puu.sh/FNOuC/15543622f3.mp4
Every 15 seconds. Instant Also removes roots, stuns, etc.

[Gaidax]

I really have no clue what you are smoking. Gateway mobility-wise works just fine, you can cast it then move to the spot you want, it's fine. Time it takes to reach the target spot is still better than DK even with cast time.

But that's hardly the point, with one talent point we have access to one of the best mobility abilities ingame which has its only negative mostly offset in group setting. Comparing DK to Warlock with Burning Rush is ridicous - we have an amazing option right there, where they keep sucking it no matter what.

[valky94]

"Blink with an extra click"

And a cast time

and a time for the gateway to appear

and time to travel.

and a MUCH longer cooldown.

dks are FAR more mobile then warlocks, again, warlocks are the only class with 0 baseline mobility.

https://puu.sh/FNOtp/8ab783bf4d.mp4
Every 1.5 mins, can be intterupted.
https://puu.sh/FNOuC/15543622f3.mp4
Every 15 seconds. Instant Also removes roots, stuns, etc.

yes warlocks are less mobile than mages, but i still perefer being a tanky warlock with mobility talents (Burning Rush OP) than being a mage with mobility and 0 tankiness

that alone is one of the reasons why i have been playing a warlock for 10+ years now, having the ability to "cheese" some boss/dungeon mechanics because of out natural tankiness

[FelPlague]

yes warlocks are less mobile than mages, but i still perefer being a tanky warlock with mobility talents (Burning Rush OP) than being a mage with mobility and 0 tankiness

that alone is one of the reasons why i have been playing a warlock for 10+ years now, having the ability to "cheese" some boss/dungeon mechanics because of out natural tankiness

"0 tankiness"
1. 1 of the only classes with an invulnirability in the game
2. one of the only classes with an in combat invis
3. they also do have a bit of actual tankiness, Fire/frost ward, remove curse,(Frost) ice barrier,cold snap (Fire), Blazing barrier, Caturize, (Arcane), Prismatic Barrier, PLUS TALENTS
4. They also have the best CC in the game beside rogues, its mental, slows, poly, roots, etc.

5. I love how you breen up "Having the ability to cheese some boss dungeon/mechanics cause of their tankiness" When mages are one of the few classes that are able to cheese 3-4 fights in every raid cause "oh lol this ability is gunna kill me and hurt the whole raid? iceblock, and its gone"

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I really have no clue what you are smoking. Gateway mobility-wise works just fine, you can cast it then move to the spot you want, it's fine. Time it takes to reach the target spot is still better than DK even with cast time.

But that's hardly the point, with one talent point we have access to one of the best mobility abilities ingame which has its only negative mostly offset in group setting. Comparing DK to Warlock with Burning Rush is ridicous - we have an amazing option right there, where they keep sucking it no matter what.

https://puu.sh/FNOJM/8336d4edeb.mp4
able to make it there in 4 seconds, and back in about another 4, with a 45 second cooldown, so you make the same distance a gateway does in the same time... but you also get a total of double the distance, AND half the cooldown.
also ontop of that DK gets perma "Cannot be lowered under 70%" and while this is active you cant be lowered below 100% speed
Nevermind the fact this fucking stuff exists, let me show you just how "Bad" dk movement is
https://puu.sh/FNONk/f7deb86895.mp4
This is the dk talent. 1 min cooldown
https://puu.sh/FNOM1/603b14709f.mp4
Both back to back... 45 second, and 1 min.
While using death advance you are also immune to knockback and forced movement, during wraith walk you are immune to being slown AT ALL also immune to roots, but you cant attack, again all so much better then what warlock has, while yes burning rush has the "it works forever" it costs health, and does not give you these immunities, while also being an ability that hurts you, in a row of talents that are your defencives. NEvermind the facto n the blood dk row it is moved to not be with their defencives, and instead is in a "Movement" row.

[Gaidax]

You compare Wraith Walk (lulz) to Burning Rush?

That's gold. It's like comparing a piece of shit to diamonds. Both Gateway and Death's Advance are poor-man's mobility baseline (although you can do much more with gateway), but talented? Rush is better than just about every mobility option in existence, simply because it's free for all no cd, no duration with balancing negative negated in any group/raid setting. I have no clue what you are smoking there, even bringing in Wraith Walk, which is a joke of talent. It's a literal slap in the face talent.

Just stop... seriously.

[FelPlague]

You compare Wraith Walk (lulz) to Burning Rush?

That's gold. It's like comparing a piece of shit to diamonds. Both Gateway and Death's Advance are poor-man's mobility baseline (although you can do much more with gateway), but talented? Rush is better than just about every mobility option in existence, simply because it's free for all no cd, no duration with balancing negative negated in any group/raid setting. I have no clue what you are smoking there, even bringing in Wraith Walk, which is a joke of talent. It's a literal slap in the face talent.

Just stop... seriously.

Deaths advance gets you double the distance gateway does, with half the cooldown, plus it has many addtional effects ontop.
and no, burning rush is not, it may be at speed, but it has the cost that makes it way worse then many others, and again, its talented. this still makes warlock the only class without a baeline movement speed effect. "Joke of a talent" its a fucking amazing talent. and i just stop? mate i dont think you even know what your talking about. In a raid enviroment with some overgeared heals and getting carried healer wise sure burning rush is great, but ANYWHERE ELSE nah, where heals are tight, or you have no healer at all, nope.
ive played the questing experiance, and torghast on every class, and no class is their speed more noticable, then on warlocks.

[LordVargK]

TBH I don't mind Life Tap, it's the thoughtless way too many Locks used it that annoyed me. As for mana, currently it's there to stop hybrids (which really means sPriests, DPS Shamans, and Rets) from healing too much (they might heal Fury Warriors or something otherwise) and to give Arcane Mages something to do during boss fights and large m+ trash pulls other than push one button over and over.

Yeah, I know about hybrids and arcane mages. But Warlocks (we need mana really only for drain life) and especially frost and fire mages (to my knowledge) just don't need mana. And the healing of hybrid classes is not that significant that it has to be mana restricted (although I don't know about PvP is this context).

It's just a waste. If Blizzard doesn't want us to use mana, then they should remove it once and for all. Otherwise they should use it for something, at least to bring some flavour back into the game.

[Saltysquidoon]

So a couple of things:
1. What movement situation are we comparing here? A Raid where the slow resist is almost useless and you know where you have to be at certain times and therefore gate port and burning rush so hilariously outclass dks it's not even funny? PvP, where the slow resist, is probably more useful in general but dks being able to reposition players can effectively counter circle? Mythics where generally more versatile movement options are going to be superior (except when people use gate to cheese) or just generally out in the world.
Or some sort weird hybrid where each sides points are always the strongest and no one is ever wrong.

2. WW is not an amazing talent its liquid trash, it's so bad in fact DA was readded into the game to give dks more mobility. Being locked out of doing anything is huge and the 'epic' animation led to it clipping constantly if the terrain isn't perfectly flat.

3. WW is on the DK defensive row as well so I'm not sure why suddenly that a big mark against BR. You also basically never take WW in PvP because it's useless, for much the same reason you don't take BR.

4. Locks are ranged. Even if everyone agreed locks and dks had similar mobility that's still a win for locks because they have to move less.

[FelPlague]

So a couple of things:
1. What movement situation are we comparing here? A Raid where the slow resist is almost useless and you know where you have to be at certain times and therefore gate port and burning rush so hilariously outclass dks it's not even funny? PvP, where the slow resist, is probably more useful in general but dks being able to reposition players can effectively counter circle? Mythics where generally more versatile movement options are going to be superior (except when people use gate to cheese) or just generally out in the world.
Or some sort weird hybrid where each sides points are always the strongest and no one is ever wrong.

2. WW is not an amazing talent its liquid trash, it's so bad in fact DA was readded into the game to give dks more mobility. Being locked out of doing anything is huge and the 'epic' animation led to it clipping constantly if the terrain isn't perfectly flat.

3. WW is on the DK defensive row as well so I'm not sure why suddenly that a big mark against BR. You also basically never take WW in PvP because it's useless, for much the same reason you don't take BR.

4. Locks are ranged. Even if everyone agreed locks and dks had similar mobility that's still a win for locks because they have to move less.

"A Raid where the slow resist is almost useless"
Wrathion says hi...
Also corruption gear says hi.

Gate is good for a group, but we are talking the individual, cause gates could just on their own be an item for use in raids and group content. and warlocks have their own movement speed, sorta like how healthstones arnt really a benefit for warlock, they are a benefit for everyone, when you have a warlock.

2. that was fixed

3. why its a deal for locks and not DK, is cause burning rush hurts you, so losing a defencive, AND taking extra damage, while WW just removes your defencive, and doesent even do that for Blood, for blood its not on any of the defencive rows

4. "they have to move less" i mean in raid that is true, but melee can attack while moving, so that movement effects them less.

[FreeHongKong]

You do realize that quality of life changes != DPS topping.....right?....like...Please tell me you know there is a difference...?

No one (or at least, the majority) is asking for us to be top DPS monsters again. What we are asking for are QoL changes that we have grown used to over the past few years in BfA with the azerite trait and essences. Asking for unending resolve to be a 1.5m CD like most DCDs won't propel us to the top of the meter. Asking for flashover and flashpoint to be baked into the class won't make us DPS all-stars. Asking for an interrupt won't make us gods. Get a grip and stop trying to pass off insults as witty dialogue. When there are NO CHANGES to a class at all and a lot of the changes we are asking for will make the class more FUN to play (because of course, fun doesn't always mean topping the meters) going into a new expansion it feels deflating and cheap. Get a grip and try to be constructive.

Flash point is indeed a dps increase.

Pretty much a 40% reduction to damage in a 3 minute timer is the best defensive. Plus immune to silence and push backs.. gtfo

I’ll take that over my 2 minute 40% reduction to ONLY physical.

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No instants and even the CD is casted. Something is wrong here.

Go play affiliation then...

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Neither are mobility, they are preplanned escape...
You cant use a gateway or a circle to chase a target running away, or help you run away from something in the world.
they need to be set up ahead of time.

Um... isn’t that what recklessness does?

[valky94]

snip

i feel like he/she never did any actual hard engame content and is talking out of a casuals players PoV, Burning Rush is one of the best move speed increases in the game, and his counter argument is "iT dOeS daMAgE To yOu", like wth dude, noone is ever going to die from a 4% health drain (which gets reduced by soul link if ur playing demo, not sure about destro's mastery)

[FelPlague]

One expansion where you aren't top of the meters every fight...

BLOW IT UP. REWORK EVERYTHING. DEAD CLASS.

Morons.

"One expansion" what...?
We are rarely ever top of the meters, there has only been a handful, and its usually 1 fight or 2, because of specific circumstances.
I mean lets look.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24
Wrathion- 2 locks, 5 DH, a druid, a hunter, and a warrior, its pretty spread
Maut- Mostly destro lock, with a few fire mages, pretty good fight for destro
Skitra- Obvious, all destro, except well a rogue in top but thats 1 dude
Xanesh- All fire mage and a few warrirs with a few locks
Hivemind- All fire mages
Shadhar- Warrior and DH
Dres- Destro lock
Vexiona- All fire mage'
Raden- All fire mage
Ilg- Destro lock with some shadow priests, fire mages, and a warrior,
Carapace- fire mage
nzoth- fire mage and destro lock

Overall yeah a fair few locks, behind fire mage which is insane, but guess what.
a fun class, one that feels good to play, is not one that is "top of the meters" especially since destro lock is only top of the meters cause of azerite traits, which well... we arnt gunna have in Shadowlands.

We want a fun class, one that feels good, and one that has its strengths lowered, and its weaknesses strengthened.
Every single lock i have met misses the old days of every chaos bolt being strong, and being less common, now it just feels super fucking patheticly weak, the only time it does damage is at the end of an infernal, and every lock ive spoken to about it hates how all our DPS is shoved into the infernal, outside of it "meh" inside of it we hit INSANE numbers.

Like look at this, its fucking sad, i hate it, and so do so many more, It should be more small lumps where "Oh there is where he got off a chaos bolt!" not "oh thats where he summoned infernal!"

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Um... isn’t that what recklessness does?

What does recklessness have to do with anything?

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i feel like he/she never did any actual hard engame content and is talking out of a casuals players PoV, Burning Rush is one of the best move speed increases in the game, and his counter argument is "iT dOeS daMAgE To yOu", like wth dude, noone is ever going to die from a 4% health drain (which gets reduced by soul link if ur playing demo, not sure about destro's mastery)

Demo is the only spec that can really pull it off, because its split with your demon, and that makes it actually much more managable, but again, in a raid its amazing, cause you have healing to spare, but it still feels like shit, and isnt fun to have to take a talent, to get movement, while every other class doesent.

[valky94]

"0 tankiness"
1. 1 of the only classes with an invulnirability in the game
2. one of the only classes with an in combat invis
3. they also do have a bit of actual tankiness, Fire/frost ward, remove curse,(Frost) ice barrier,cold snap (Fire), Blazing barrier, Caturize, (Arcane), Prismatic Barrier, PLUS TALENTS
4. They also have the best CC in the game beside rogues, its mental, slows, poly, roots, etc.

5. I love how you breen up "Having the ability to cheese some boss dungeon/mechanics cause of their tankiness" When mages are one of the few classes that are able to cheese 3-4 fights in every raid cause "oh lol this ability is gunna kill me and hurt the whole raid? iceblock, and its gone"

1. ye they have ice block, but except that they dont have a defensive cd, neither baseline nor in their talents, so if they are asigned to soak a mechanic with ice block, they cant use it defensivly, warlock get their barrier spells as a passive lol

2. ok they have greater invis, which is arcane only, frost and fire still have no defensive CDs for raids

3. wards arent a thing in BfA, they are getting added in SL, again what talents? they have no defensive abilties as talents

4. poly is very good indeed, but when fighting certain mobtypes, banish is by far the best CC in the game

id still take burning rush over wraith walk any day of the week

all the DK players in my guild said that both DA and WW suck ass