The Doom of the Warlock

[FelPlague]

1. ye they have ice block, but except that they dont have a defensive cd, neither baseline nor in their talents, so if they are asigned to soak a mechanic with ice block, they cant use it defensivly, warlock get their barrier spells as a passive lol

2. ok they have greater invis, which is arcane only, frost and fire still have no defensive CDs for raids

3. wards arent a thing in BfA, they are getting added in SL, again what talents? they have no defensive abilties as talents

4. poly is very good ideed, but when fighting certain mobtypes, banish is by far the best CC in the game

id still take burning rush over wraith walk any day of the week

but except that they dont have a defensive cd













(For number references, as to how much those shields effect)




2. No, greater invis is all 3 schools, not just arcane.

3. big surprise, guess what, we are talking shadowlands! and no, the wards are abilities. And a fair few talents.

4. lolol i mean in ways yes, but it only effects 2 types, demons and elementals.

[enigma77]

No please, Life Tap no.

Life Tap was a retarded spell. No sense that Warlocks have to mantain 2 different resources. One of the worst parts of Legions Demonology was the Life Tap spam (with the Demonic Empowerment spam).

Imo they could bring it back, but in a different form. Sacrificing health for power is a very warlocky thing to do. Just make it a short cooldown of some kind, giving us extra haste at the cost of 10% health or something like that.

Not a boring maintenance buff like the Legion talent, make it a 25 second cooldown for some sweet haste.

- - - Updated - - -

Gate and port in SL.

Like I get Locks trade mobility for survivability compared to most classes, but talking about dk mobility is like asking for square wheels on your cart.

This is one of the great lies of class design.

Classes without mobility are just plain worse, whatever survivability we get doesn't make up for not being able to get around quickly, not even close.

Let me show what a class with a ton of mobility (Demon Hunter) has: Passive 10% magic dmg reduction, an immunity if talented, two defensive cooldowns, massive (passive) self healing.

This is what Locks have: 10% more health, no immunity, two (if talented) defensive cooldowns, one of them on a massive 3 min cd, pathetic self healing, for which we have to stop doing damage.

Sound fair to you?

[valky94]

snip

Like i said, wards arent a thing in BfA, we talking about BfA here, not shadowlands, and they block only one school of magic, if you get hit by anything else beside fire/frost ur fucked

no arcane mage is gonna take mana barrier because it reduces their dps, and its in the same row as shimmer

i alrdy said that greater invis is arcane only, fire and frost have no defensives outside iceblock

prismatic barries is a pvp talent, cant be used in pve content

noone is gonna take glacial insualtion because shimmer is too good, maybe in SL, but doubt it

did you even read my post before you tried to reply to me?

[kranur]

Many people just bring up numbers into discussion. It's not just about the numbers, it's about the gameplay. Affliction and Demonology feel so bad and awkward to play, it's the worst they have ever been. They forced affliction into a burst window bullshit when dot specs should be about sustained dps and dots just don't make any sense as they are incredibly weak.
Demonology I don't know it just feels like a clusterfuck of random spells.

The only upside is that demon hunters are available to play.

[FelPlague]

Like i said, wards arent a thing in BfA, we talking about BfA here, not shadowlands, and they block only one school of magic, if you get hit by anything else beside fire/frost ur fucked

no arcane mage is gonna take mana barrier because it reduces their dps, and its in the same row as shimmer

i alrdy said that greater invis is arcane only, fire and frost have no defensives outside iceblock

prismatic barries is a pvp talent, cant be used in pve content

noone is gonna take glacial insualtion because shimmer is too good, maybe in SL, but doubt it

did you even read my post before you tried to reply to me?

1. we are talking shadowlands... IDK if you know... but this thread.. is talking about... shadowlands mate.. And guess what, Prismatic barrier, ice barrier, and flame barrier are all not one school of magic...

2. Again greater invis is for all classes in shadowlands.

3. Prismatic barrier is not a PVP talent, it is an arcane defensive cooldown.


4. oh boooo hooooo you said "they have no defencive CD talents" now your saying "they aren't as good as others!!"
Also why is shimmer so good hm?
I also love how you just ignored like 60% of the list of baseline, and talent based defencive cooldowns, but continue to push your "they have no defencive CDs!"
- - - Updated - - -

Many people just bring up numbers into discussion. It's not just about the numbers, it's about the gameplay. Affliction and Demonology feel so bad and awkward to play, it's the worst they have ever been. They forced affliction into a burst window bullshit when dot specs should be about sustained dps and dots just don't make any sense as they are incredibly weak.
Demonology I don't know it just feels like a clusterfuck of random spells.

The only upside is that demon hunters are available to play.

All 3 specs are forced into burst windows and its shit, demo atleast had it abit faster and more connected to you yourself when you were metamorph, now its all in your tyrant, which sucks ass cause its all UP TO your tyrant not AFTER your tyrant... and destro everything is forced into your infernal window.
it just all feels shit. Demonolgy is a dot spec but with all its dots requiring resources, and a cast time... Affliction is a dot class thats fine, but its forced to burst which is just odd. And destro is fine if not for well its all forced into infernal, it needs to return to how it used to be.

[valky94]

i meant prismatic cloak, my bad, was a typo

1. we are talking shadowlands... IDK if you know... but this thread.. is talking about... shadowlands mate.. And guess what, Prismatic barrier, ice barrier, and flame barrier are all not one school of magic...

2. Again greater invis is for all classes in shadowlands.

3. Prismatic barrier is not a PVP talent, it is an arcane defensive cooldown.

4. oh boooo hooooo you said "they have no defencive CD talents" now your saying "they aren't as good as others!!"
Also why is shimmer so good hm?

.

1. i said wards are certain schools of magic, again your case of selective reading is showing

2. i was going acording to the data shown by wowhead, and it shows that only arcane has greater invis, dont have alpha access so cant confirm nor deny it

3. look at the top of this post

4. shimmer is so good because it allows you to blink while casting

[FelPlague]

i meant prismatic cloak, my bad, was a typo



1. i said wards are certain schools of magic, again your case of selective reading is showing

2. i was going acording to the data shown by wowhead, and it shows that only arcane has greater invis, dont have alpha access so cant confirm nor deny it

3. look at the top of this post

4. shimmer is so good because it allows you to blink while casting

1. well what about all the rest?
2. yeah, and again, what about all the rest? you said

they dont have a defensive cd, neither baseline nor in their talents

Greater invis is arcane only, but normal invis is frost and fire, meanwhile fire also has caturizing wound.
but thats not a cd, "really"
3. Yeah, maybe you shouldnt say "you dont even know how to read, you have selective reading" then you yourself have selective reading, its pretty hilariously hypocritical
4.Shimmer in shadowlands has 5 second longer cd, and does not break you free from CC, but yes still can cast while casting.



So again, "They dont have a defensive CD, neither baseline nor in their talents" is 100% fucking wrong.

[Saltysquidoon]

This is one of the great lies of class design.

Classes without mobility are just plain worse, whatever survivability we get doesn't make up for not being able to get around quickly, not even close.

Let me show what a class with a ton of mobility (Demon Hunter) has: Passive 10% magic dmg reduction, an immunity if talented, two defensive cooldowns, massive (passive) self healing.

This is what Locks have: 10% more health, no immunity, two (if talented) defensive cooldowns, one of them on a massive 3 min cd, pathetic self healing, for which we have to stop doing damage.

Sound fair to you?

Mate, you know the post you were replying to was me talking about someone comparing locks to DKs right (the least mobile class in the game)? Also, Destro (thus locks) are the best ranged class in pvp. And they're amazing in Ny'alotha, there is one fight where locks aren't top 5 (if not the best). Literally the only content locks aren't broken in is M+ because all our damage is tied to the big burst CDs.

So yeah not that it had anything to do with what I was talking about but mobile classes aren't 'just better'.

"A Raid where the slow resist is almost useless"
Wrathion says hi...
Also corruption gear says hi.

Gate is good for a group, but we are talking the individual, cause gates could just on their own be an item for use in raids and group content. and warlocks have their own movement speed, sorta like how healthstones arnt really a benefit for warlock, they are a benefit for everyone, when you have a warlock.

2. that was fixed

3. why its a deal for locks and not DK, is cause burning rush hurts you, so losing a defencive, AND taking extra damage, while WW just removes your defencive, and doesent even do that for Blood, for blood its not on any of the defencive rows

4. "they have to move less" i mean in raid that is true, but melee can attack while moving, so that movement effects them less.

Are you sure its a super good argument to argue that an individual slow resist is better than gate in raiding because bosses sometimes have a slow, compared to being amazing in like every fight in the history of gate (this is also ignoring portal will be baseline in SL)?
Further, didn't you just argue that lock dps is only good because of borrowed power? So if DPS doesn't count because it's going away why would corruption gear matter in SL?

WW was "fixed" by if you clip you can normally mostly jump to get out, it's still just worse then running at the same speed. You also didn't address being locked out of actions, any gcd spent in WW is a gcd of lost damage (which is also an issue for demo) you also can't cast utility or defensives.

Blood is a tank spec, tanks are expected to have more utility then a dps I don't know why this is being brought up as a comparison.
It seems to me that the crux of your argument is BR is somehow bad because it does damage, which just straight up doesn't matter in any content that isn't decidedly trivial. In a riad you will have healers, in M+ you have a healer in PvP (not that anyone takes br in arenas) you have healers. The only place brs damage might ever matter is meme shit like questing and BGs.
Now in SL torghast is a factor but we can't really comment on how impactful BR is going to be on torghast until its a little more finished

Whether movement affects range or melee more depends on what movement it is, if its movement that makes you get off the boss its huge for melee, if its kiting adds in M+ that's going to affect turret specs like demo or destro more.
You also have to look at it on a cumulative basis, running something out to a wall (especially for dks) is going to hurt more in the long run then a cancelled cast

[FelPlague]

Mate, you know the post you were replying to was me talking about someone comparing locks to DKs right (the least mobile class in the game)? Also, Destro (thus locks) are the best ranged class in pvp. And they're amazing in Ny'alotha, there is one fight where locks aren't top 5 (if not the best). Literally the only content locks aren't broken in is M+ because all our damage is tied to the big burst CDs.

So yeah not that it had anything to do with what I was talking about but mobile classes aren't 'just better'.

"There is 1 fight where 1 class is not in the top 5 of 12 classes" lol what?
Yeah, no duh that 1 class will be in the top 5 of 12.

but fucking
again
how many times do we need to explain it

Top of the meters does not equal fun, enjoyable, and smooth.
for fucks sakes.

[valky94]

"There is 1 fight where 1 class is not in the top 5 of 12 classes" lol what?
Yeah, no duh that 1 class will be in the top 5 of 12.

but fucking
again
how many times do we need to explain it

Top of the meters does not equal fun, enjoyable, and smooth.
for fucks sakes.

ive played all 3 specs in BfA and all 3 are enjoyable for me to play, with aff being the least enjoyable, but ive "hated" that spec since they removed snapshoting

[enigma77]

Mate, you know the post you were replying to was me talking about someone comparing locks to DKs right (the least mobile class in the game)? Also, Destro (thus locks) are the best ranged class in pvp. And they're amazing in Ny'alotha, there is one fight where locks aren't top 5 (if not the best). Literally the only content locks aren't broken in is M+ because all our damage is tied to the big burst CDs.

So yeah not that it had anything to do with what I was talking about but mobile classes aren't 'just better'.

They're better in terms of general gameplay. Raiding is one small part of the game and the only reason why Locks shine there is because of numerical (over)tuning.

Just look at Affliction in pvp. Tell me how does the idea of 'immobile classes having great survivability' work out for it?

Everyone must be blind and can't find their amazing survival buttons to press, because Affliction dies in 2 seconds against any melee cleave team. And even in raiding, 'immobile class good survivability hurr durr' is a fucking lie. Warlocks don't have immunities, which are the best fucking defensive thing to have in raiding, especially when solo soaking is so important all the time. But guess which classes have immunities? The mobile ones.

Warlock class design is one big bad bandaid fix. Poor design covered up by strong tuning, nothing more to it.

[FelPlague]

They're better in terms of general gameplay. Raiding is one small part of the game and the only reason why Locks shine there is because of numerical (over)tuning.

Just look at Affliction in pvp. Tell me how does the idea of 'immobile classes having great survivability' work out for it?

Everyone must be blind and can't find their amazing survival buttons to press, because Affliction dies in 2 seconds against any melee cleave team.

Locks are only amazing cause of flashpoint+rolling havoc+ineffible truth, its not "Numerical overtuning"
Most of the fights have constant adds coming
Rolling havoc and flashpoint are way too strong
and ineffible truth allows havoc to cooldown faster then flashpoint and rolling havoc wear off, so you can keep perma 10 stacks. which is mental.
this is all corruption and azerite
not part of the class
being removed in shadowlands
just cause its OP now cause of current stuff, i hate people are like "lol your asking for the most op class to become more op, wow fucking nerds" no, were asking for the class itself to be fun.

[Saltysquidoon]

Locks are only amazing cause of flashpoint+rolling havoc+ineffible truth, its not "Numerical overtuning"
Most of the fights have constant adds coming
Rolling havoc and flashpoint are way too strong
and ineffible truth allows havoc to cooldown faster then flashpoint and rolling havoc wear off, so you can keep perma 10 stacks. which is mental.
this is all corruption and azerite
not part of the class
being removed in shadowlands
just cause its OP now cause of current stuff, i hate people are like "lol your asking for the most op class to become more op, wow fucking nerds" no, were asking for the class itself to be fun.

Locks were the best class in the game (in raiding) in antorus and tomb. So clearly its not just azerite traits carrying them. Even if your argument is they're only good because of borrowed power generally, how can you say how good they will be in in SL when we haven't seen the borrowed power?

Also in your other post, I was breaking it down by spec. i.e. there is only one fight in the whole raid where locks don't have a spec in the top 5.

They're better in terms of general gameplay. Raiding is one small part of the game and the only reason why Locks shine there is because of numerical (over)tuning.

Just look at Affliction in pvp. Tell me how does the idea of 'immobile classes having great survivability' work out for it?

Everyone must be blind and can't find their amazing survival buttons to press, because Affliction dies in 2 seconds against any melee cleave team. And even in raiding, 'immobile class good survivability hurr durr' is a fucking lie. Warlocks don't have immunities, which are the best fucking defensive thing to have in raiding, especially when solo soaking is so important all the time. But guess which classes have immunities? The mobile ones.

Warlock class design is one big bad bandaid fix. Poor design covered up by strong tuning, nothing more to it.

Want to be the best in PvP play destro. This is the point playing a lock means you have the option to be the best if you want. The fact aff sucks doesn't matter, some classes don't just have the option to be good in pvp.

What is general gameplay? if its not raiding and its not pvp. M+? Or are you talking about fucking questing? Who gives a shit about questing?

[FelPlague]

Mate, you know the post you were replying to was me talking about someone comparing locks to DKs right (the least mobile class in the game)? Also, Destro (thus locks) are the best ranged class in pvp. And they're amazing in Ny'alotha, there is one fight where locks aren't top 5 (if not the best). Literally the only content locks aren't broken in is M+ because all our damage is tied to the big burst CDs.

So yeah not that it had anything to do with what I was talking about but mobile classes aren't 'just better'.


Are you sure its a super good argument to argue that an individual slow resist is better than gate in raiding because bosses sometimes have a slow, compared to being amazing in like every fight in the history of gate (this is also ignoring portal will be baseline in SL)?
Further, didn't you just argue that lock dps is only good because of borrowed power? So if DPS doesn't count because it's going away why would corruption gear matter in SL?

WW was "fixed" by if you clip you can normally mostly jump to get out, it's still just worse then running at the same speed. You also didn't address being locked out of actions, any gcd spent in WW is a gcd of lost damage (which is also an issue for demo) you also can't cast utility or defensives.

Blood is a tank spec, tanks are expected to have more utility then a dps I don't know why this is being brought up as a comparison.
It seems to me that the crux of your argument is BR is somehow bad because it does damage, which just straight up doesn't matter in any content that isn't decidedly trivial. In a riad you will have healers, in M+ you have a healer in PvP (not that anyone takes br in arenas) you have healers. The only place brs damage might ever matter is meme shit like questing and BGs.
Now in SL torghast is a factor but we can't really comment on how impactful BR is going to be on torghast until its a little more finished

Whether movement affects range or melee more depends on what movement it is, if its movement that makes you get off the boss its huge for melee, if its kiting adds in M+ that's going to affect turret specs like demo or destro more.
You also have to look at it on a cumulative basis, running something out to a wall (especially for dks) is going to hurt more in the long run then a cancelled cast

Idk if you know... but while placing your gateway, and using the gateway, you cant cast spells... just gunna say

also there is many more bosses that slow you out there... and again, there is such things as pvp, mythic plus, world content, torghast just gunna say, the "being unable to be slown below 70%' is fucking hilariously overpowered in Visions of nzoth, just leadenfoot? what the fuck is that, lol.

and yeah, you have healers, but unless your healers are overdoing themselves, i would love for you to tell your healer "hey im taking 4% a second cause i wanna move fast" and in PVP where every percent matters, it matters. Also gate is very rarely "amazing" and not "amazing every fight in history" like you say.

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Locks were the best class in the game (in raiding) in antorus and tomb. So clearly its not just azerite traits carrying them. Even if your argument is they're only good because of borrowed power generally, how can you say how good they will be in in SL when we haven't seen the borrowed power?

Affliction warlock, which overall was broken as shit? cause of artifact stuff and the fights there? yeah? But now its destro locks, its called borrowed power, the only reason locks have been so good is cause of borrowed powers, we keep just getting the most annoying shit
and again
as me and many others have said a million fucking times


BEING TOP DPS, DOES NOT SUDDENLY MAKE THE CLASS FEEL GOOD, PLAY GOOD, OR ENJOYABLE. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE TOP OF THE METERS, DOES NOT MEAN THE CLASS IS FUN

it dont fucking matter if i do more dps then everyone in the raid, if when the mob casts their heal they return to full hp and all my dps was wasted, cause oopsie i dont have a fucking interrupt!

It's boring, it's clunky, and it's unenjoyable, affliction is even more bursty, demonolgy suffers even more from its casting, and destruction still is just a "I got infernal, now i can dps" all with warlock overall being "my dps cooldown is ready, now i can actually dps"


THIS IS NOT GOOD, DPS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE THIS

[Kralljin]

This is one of the great lies of class design.

It wouldn't be if Blizzard finally lived up to their "strengths and weaknesses" thing.

But here's the issue: Blizzard either have no clue to implement this philosophy properly or have yet to figure out where each class should strong and weak.

Take Demon Hunters, they're a damn mobility beast, yet at the same time, they are one of the tankiest DPS spec that we have in the game right now.

In other games, the mobile classes are squishy ones, they have less HP, less Armor or no defensive options at all, they are glass cannons, but in WoW, the situation is out of whack, the mobile classes are the tanky ones.

Look at Classic, for all its faults in game balance, it got that one right, a Mage is damn mobile by Classic standards, but if they wear too much gear without stamina (which can be quite powerful sometimes), they fall over whenever something looks at them the wrong way, because they are squishy as fuck.

Warlocks can get away with using that sort of gear, because they're Locks.

This entire thing been turned so on its head over the years it's insane.


I really had hoped that Blizzard might finally lift the veil on this philosophy and actually share where they see each class, where they should be strong, weak, in what situations they should shine.
But instead...just silence as usual.

[FelPlague]

It wouldn't be if Blizzard finally lived up to their "strengths and weaknesses" thing.

But here's the issue: Blizzard either have no clue to implement this philosophy properly or have yet to figure out where each class should strong and weak.

Take Demon Hunters, they're a damn mobility beast, yet at the same time, they are one of the tankiest DPS spec that we have in the game right now.

In other games, the mobile classes are squishy ones, they have less HP, less Armor or no defensive options at all, they are glass cannons, but in WoW, the situation is out of whack, the mobile classes are the tanky ones.

Look at Classic, for all its faults in game balance, it got that one right, a Mage is damn mobile by Classic standards, but if they wear too much gear without stamina (which can be quite powerful sometimes), they fall over whenever something looks at them the wrong way.

Warlocks can get away with using that sort of gear, because they're Locks.

This entire thing been turned so on its head over the years it's insane.


I really had hoped that Blizzard might finally lift the veil on this philosophy and actually share where they see each class, where they should be strong, weak, in what situations they should shine.
But instead...just silence as usual.

Perfect example

Classic, i can 2 shot most mages as a lock, warriors can do so too, but getting close enough as a warrior is impossible.

as a lock i can take a warrior for a fair while, but if that warrior gets into melee, i dont really have many ways to get away, i just have to kill him before he kills me, or cc him, then when his buddy rushes me well.. then im fucked unless i can kill him, which sometimes you can.


every class should have the BASELINE of everything, and each class should have weaknesses and strengths.
meanwhile warlock is the only class with NO baseline movement and NO baseline interrupt...
its fucking garbage. maybe have their intterupt just do nothing (compared to other classes where their intterupt also buffs them, like DH)
make their movement speed buff small, compared to the amazing mobility of the mage or rogue.

but dont give us NOTHING.

[Thestrawman]

Idk if you know... but while placing your gateway, and using the gateway, you cant cast spells... just gunna say

also there is many more bosses that slow you out there... and again, there is such things as pvp, mythic plus, world content, torghast just gunna say, the "being unable to be slown below 70%' is fucking hilariously overpowered in Visions of nzoth, just leadenfoot? what the fuck is that, lol.

and yeah, you have healers, but unless your healers are overdoing themselves, i would love for you to tell your healer "hey im taking 4% a second cause i wanna move fast" and in PVP where every percent matters, it matters. Also gate is very rarely "amazing" and not "amazing every fight in history" like you say.

- - - Updated - - -



Affliction warlock, which overall was broken as shit? yeah?
and again
as me and many others have said a million fucking times


BEING TOP DPS, DOES NOT SUDDENLY MAKE THE CLASS FEEL GOOD, PLAY GOOD, OR ENJOYABLE. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE TOP OF THE METERS, DOES NOT MEAN THE CLASS IS FUN

It's boring, it's clunky, and it's unenjoyable, affliction is even more bursty, demonolgy suffers even more from its casting, and destruction still is just a "I got infernal, now i can dps" all with warlock overall being "my dps cooldown is ready, now i can actually dps"


THIS IS NOT GOOD, DPS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE THIS

So... If I'm understanding you right. I think you might be trying to say that big numbers aren't the most important thing?????? /s

Yeah good luck getting the WoW community to learn that lesson. All that matters to 90% of the player base is who's first on those damage meters.

[enigma77]

It wouldn't be if Blizzard finally lived up to their "strengths and weaknesses" thing.

But here's the issue: Blizzard either have no clue to implement this philosophy properly or have yet to figure out where each class should strong and weak.

Take Demon Hunters, they're a damn mobility beast, yet at the same time, they are one of the tankiest DPS spec that we have in the game right now.

In other games, the mobile classes are squishy ones, they have less HP, less Armor or no defensive options at all, they are glass cannons, but in WoW, the situation is out of whack, the mobile classes are the tanky ones.

Look at Classic, for all its faults in game balance, it got that one right, a Mage is damn mobile by Classic standards, but if they wear too much gear without stamina (which can be quite powerful sometimes), they fall over whenever something looks at them the wrong way, because they are squishy as fuck.

Warlocks can get away with using that sort of gear, because they're Locks.

This entire thing been turned so on its head over the years it's insane.


I really had hoped that Blizzard might finally lift the veil on this philosophy and actually share where they see each class, where they should be strong, weak, in what situations they should shine.
But instead...just silence as usual.

Finally someone who gets it.

[Saltysquidoon]

also there is many more bosses that slow you out there... and again, there is such things as pvp, mythic plus, world content, torghast just gunna say, the "being unable to be slown below 70%' is fucking hilariously overpowered in Visions of nzoth, just leadenfoot? what the fuck is that, lol.

and yeah, you have healers, but unless your healers are overdoing themselves, i would love for you to tell your healer "hey im taking 4% a second cause i wanna move fast" and in PVP where every percent matters, it matters. Also gate is very rarely "amazing" and not "amazing every fight in history" like you say.

I talked about slow resistance being useful in pvp my second post.

Also as for the bolded part, this just confirms for me you don't raid. Ok cool, yeah free mobility for the entire raid isn't amazing while you're complaining about locks being bad because they have weak mobility, 5head play there.

Affliction warlock, which overall was broken as shit? yeah?
and again
as me and many others have said a million fucking times


BEING TOP DPS, DOES NOT SUDDENLY MAKE THE CLASS FEEL GOOD, PLAY GOOD, OR ENJOYABLE. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE TOP OF THE METERS, DOES NOT MEAN THE CLASS IS FUN

It's boring, it's clunky, and it's unenjoyable, affliction is even more bursty, demonolgy suffers even more from its casting, and destruction still is just a "I got infernal, now i can dps" all with warlock overall being "my dps cooldown is ready, now i can actually dps"


THIS IS NOT GOOD, DPS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE THIS

1. So aff bearing 'broken as shit' doesn't count as locks being strong? How far back to we have to go before we can all agree locks are almost always strong as shit.

2. I never said a single thing about fun ever, any point we've been talking about is unrelated to fun. Further fun is subjective so you aren't going to get very far arguing your position from 'fun'.

3. I actually agree that way too much of lock power is bound up in the big demon cd (which goes a long way to the shittyness in M+) I don't like the play style. I disagree that burst specs existing is fundamentally bad design, there are non lock burst specs in the game and have always been.

[FelPlague]

Also as for the bolded part, this just confirms for me you don't raid. Ok cool, yeah free mobility for the entire raid isn't amazing while you're complaining about locks being bad because they have weak mobility, 5head play there.

So make gateway an item that can be used in raid. If everyone can use it for just HAVING you in the group, that does not make YOU more powerful, that makes the GROUP more powerful.
its like saying mage and shaman are the strongest classes in the game, cause bloodlust is insanely powerful when used on a 30 man raid. no, its a utility, if they added the gateway as an item ingame like the drums, it could be so. we have to look at how it individually effects the warlock, you cant compare how it effects the raid, cause everyone can use it, in a raid its not the "warlocks" ability its the "raids' ability, i dare you to try and tell the raid lead "no im putting the gateway here cause i want it here" no they will call you an idiot and say "No it goes here, cause its needed for the raid" at that point its not a warlock ability, its the raids ability. just like health stones, its made by warlocks, but EVERYONE uses them.

im done talking with you about this, cause its getting insanely repetitive. and im done my render, and wanna get some more torghast footage.