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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Hero2Zer0 View Post
    I honestly cant stand tanking anymore, everyone wants to go go go, I was trying to learn the routes for M+Awakened but most people either drop group when I mention it or try to do all the pulling for me.
    My last kings rest(5+ key) I had this DH pulling mobs all the time before me and before current mobs were dead. Asked him several times if he could stop and let me pull and that I could speed it up too. Even though I kept the pace up, he continued to pull.

    So I talked to the other 3 in /w and agreed to remove him right before last boss. So he stood there in boss room and saw us kill him before being instanced out. He then cried to me in /w all kinds of words. Glorious.

    Stupid & toxic people are part of the game. I shrug it off and continue my day without giving one F***. Theres enough people out there to play with, it costs me nothing to ignore, remove or leave grps myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kynario View Post
    If you want to explore single player dungeons go try Skyrim or The Witcher.
    yeah agreed. If people want that experience, there are plenty of games out there that support it well.

  2. #202
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Got a source for that?

    Did you even bother to see if they had something like that? Or are you going to continue pretending it doesnt exist because you dont want to be wrong?

    It took me all of 5 seconds to google it.
    "Took me all of 5 seconds to google it"
    So show me, and yes i do have a source on that.

    the only 2 places the advanced Ai are used in, is the Battlegrounds, where they are enemies, and Islands, where they are also enemies.
    do you have any source on them being made to be allies? cause ive got 2 where they are enemies, so feel free to show me their "100% confirmed gunna be made to run Dungeons with you"

    if im pretending it doesent exist, please show me it, i would love to see it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  3. #203
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2525r423ftr345 View Post
    Introduce bots with which we can run dungeons like in FF14 already Blizzard!
    its sounds like you should be playing FF14 and not WoW. Dont try to turn one game into something its not when what you want already exists elsewhere.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    The same MMORPG-game where you get a group of NPCs teaming up with you in the introduction of the next expansion?

    Oh, yeah. Looks like Blizzard and you have different opinions on where to develop the game, and thankfully they try to innovate stuff instead of holding on to a 20+ year old genre-definition with a death-grip like some people in this thread are.
    having NPC's in the game and doing quests with NPC's is kinda different from doing group content with them don't you think?

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    The same MMORPG-game where you get a group of NPCs teaming up with you in the introduction of the next expansion?

    Oh, yeah. Looks like Blizzard and you have different opinions on where to develop the game, and thankfully they try to innovate stuff instead of holding on to a 20+ year old genre-definition with a death-grip like some people in this thread are.
    those are part of the story and narrative they want to push when going into a new xpac. They also use it to introduce characters that will be vital in the xpac. Thats not the same thing as getting bots to clear a raid for you.

    By your logic classic should have been a huge failure by now and no one would play it. But alot of people are. It turns out alot of people do like MMORPG elements in a MMORPG. Go figure. Blizzard will even learn and use certain things from classic and put it into retail. Go figure.

    What you seem to dont understand is how a MMORPG is and how it works. Its a own genre in the gaming world. Theres no need to change it, theres others games for singel player adventures.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2020-05-23 at 05:26 PM.

  6. #206
    Though I am sitting on the fence on this issue due to what I want or to what is better for the game. That being said, I'd love if WoW was far more complexed in terms of classes and talents etc. Complex like Guild Wars 1 was. If that was the case I'd love the idea of adding in heroes or even adding in a system similar to the mercenary of Gw1 where you could party with your other characters and create builds for each of them. Giving a lot of potential for creativity and building the best team comp etc.

    If such a thing was ever to happen in WoW (which it won't) it should be it's own thing. Like Mythic having it's own version and style, Hero/Merc dungeons would have it's own version and it's own progression/rewards. But the closest we will ever get to solo dungeons in WoW at least imo is what we have already. Going back to said dungeons when the next expansion hits and the level/item level goes up.

  7. #207
    no, dont play a mmo

  8. #208
    I don't see why anyone would be against having the option to solo content with NPCs. Obviously the NPCs should be tuned such that they output less dps/hps than the average player, but they need to be able output a minimal amount such that it is possible to clear with them. Either that or create some sort of gearing/progression system for them. At the end of the day players who like to group can do it in a group and players who want to solo can run with the bots, or any raid/party composition in between. For example, if you can't find a tank, just run with a bot tank.

    Nobody wants their progression to depend more on other players rather than their own individual ability. Just because you solo content doesn't make the game single player. You have tons of options to do content in a group with your friends if you choose. There are plenty of social features such as chat channels, guilds, communities, rp events, and more. I don't get why people are so against giving the option to solo content.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Yes its different, but not in a bad way IMO.

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    Nobody said anything about bots clearing a raid for you, I dont know why you bring up WoW Classic as I dont play that museum-game myself.
    What you fail to see yourself is that your definition of MMORPG maybe has moved on from when it first was coined.
    If it has moved away, why does a museum-game like classic have such success? It doesnt matter what you play or dont play, it is a success. And even though you dont like the genre MMORPG, alot of people clearly do. It is worth taking note of, even though you dont play it. It shows that the MMORPG genre still has its place.

    Are you also on other genres of gaming forums and complain X genre dont suit you?
    I dont really like MOBAs, but I play somtimes. I dont go crying on the forums about it needing to change down to the very core of what that genre is in order to please me.

    You dont really want wow. You want the universe, but not the gameplay. You want a story driven, solo driven experience set in Azeroth. Cant blame you, I want Blizz to push for that, but in a different and new game. Let the MMORPG game be what it is. They should instead of making it more solo friendly, work for ways to bring people together. Thats where the focus should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    I don't see why anyone would be against having the option to solo content with NPCs. Obviously the NPCs should be tuned such that they output less dps/hps than the average player, but they need to be able output a minimal amount such that it is possible to clear with them. Either that or create some sort of gearing/progression system for them. At the end of the day players who like to group can do it in a group and players who want to solo can run with the bots, or any raid/party composition in between. For example, if you can't find a tank, just run with a bot tank.

    Nobody wants their progression to depend more on other players rather than their own individual ability. Just because you solo content doesn't make the game single player. You have tons of options to do content in a group with your friends if you choose. There are plenty of social features such as chat channels, guilds, communities, rp events, and more. I don't get why people are so against giving the option to solo content.
    and how much development time should be put into this? How much actual content should be scrapped in order to create good enough AIs? And how far would these AIs get you? Would they clear normal? HC? Full mythic clear?

    We all know that if AIs work up until normal, people will cry they aint in higher difficulty. We also know that if you put a solo feature into the game that clears everything, no one would actually group up for anything anymore. Then wow would have gone full circel and it would be nothing else than a lobby game.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2020-05-23 at 08:38 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    ffxiv and wow would both improve a lot if they would be more willing to use one anothers ideas.

    WoW could use:
    Trusts
    End game flying system
    Gearing system (tokens, best gear from raids)
    Quick travel system

    Ffxiv could use:
    Meta Achievs (i.e achievs that give mounts, titles, etc, a reason to do older content)
    Raid design
    Class balance (the balance in ffxiv is dog shit compared to WoW)

    these are just a few quick ones, the 2 games could really improve by implementing things that work in the other.

    As someone who has done both. Ffxiv has mount achievements and title achievements.
    The savage raid content is good, and hard.
    The balance is at least as good as wow. With class mechanics at level cap being far superior in ffxiv.

    If you get past ARR the leveling becomes a lot more fun. And there is far more to do at cap in ffxiv.

    When I played wow I kinda of just assumed it was the best at raid stuff, and I continued that assumption right up until I started doing endgame content in ffxiv. It is wrong.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    and how much development time should be put into this? How much actual content should be scrapped in order to create good enough AIs? And how far would these AIs get you? Would they clear normal? HC? Full mythic clear?

    We all know that if AIs work up until normal, people will cry they aint in higher difficulty. We also know that if you put a solo feature into the game that clears everything, no one would actually group up for anything anymore. Then wow would have gone full circel and it would be nothing else than a lobby game.
    Provided that the individual is skilled enough as a player to full clear mythic, than it should be possible to do it with the bots. Again, these bots should be tuned such that it is more difficult to clear content with them in my opinion.

    I will ask you this. Why do players stop grouping up for things once a solo feature is put in? Doesn't that just mean players prefer to play solo? I think most people play video games for gameplay not for social features. In my opinion the social barriers in this game are detrimental to the game experience. There are plenty of examples such as players being gatekeeped by addons such as raider io, returning hardcore players having to carry subpar groups in order to "work their way back up", leavers, etc. An AI party/raid system will fix these problems.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    ffxiv and wow would both improve a lot if they would be more willing to use one anothers ideas.

    WoW could use:
    Trusts
    End game flying system
    Gearing system (tokens, best gear from raids)
    Quick travel system

    Ffxiv could use:
    Meta Achievs (i.e achievs that give mounts, titles, etc, a reason to do older content)
    Raid design
    Class balance (the balance in ffxiv is dog shit compared to WoW)

    these are just a few quick ones, the 2 games could really improve by implementing things that work in the other.

    Ill never understand why people think FFXIV has bad class balance... check out fflogs all the jobs are much closer than you might think

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    I will ask you this. Why do players stop grouping up for things once a solo feature is put in? Doesn't that just mean players prefer to play solo? I think most people play video games for gameplay not for social features. In my opinion the social barriers in this game are detrimental to the game experience. There are plenty of examples such as players being gatekeeped by addons such as raider io, returning hardcore players having to carry subpar groups in order to "work their way back up", leavers, etc. An AI party/raid system will fix these problems.
    When video games were 100% client-side, players would hack the game files, give themselves god mode, and kill everything in 5 minutes. Then they would get bored and quit. Does that mean we should allow hacking? No, because then you wind up with crap games and it ruins the industry. In fact, after all the hacking that was done to Diablo 1, the players begged for a client-server model to save players from themselves. Players understood they had no self control and needed a system to enforce proper gameplay.

    Its the same thing with multiplayer social games. Lots of players want it, but they have no self control and will ruin the experience by playing solo if they can. That doesn't mean we should never make social games. It means we need to protect players from their own worst instincts.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    As someone who has done both. Ffxiv has mount achievements and title achievements.
    The savage raid content is good, and hard.
    The balance is at least as good as wow. With class mechanics at level cap being far superior in ffxiv.

    If you get past ARR the leveling becomes a lot more fun. And there is far more to do at cap in ffxiv.

    When I played wow I kinda of just assumed it was the best at raid stuff, and I continued that assumption right up until I started doing endgame content in ffxiv. It is wrong.
    ive played both, wow in top 10 server guilds and ffxiv clearing all savage and ultimate content.

    ffxiv achievements are nothing compared to wows, no real meta achievs, and the raids are infinitely easier until ultimate.
    the class balance in ffxiv is ABYSMAL as the follow the classic wow balancing mindsets. dps and healers are no where even close to balanced in ffxiv in terms of output. saying class balance is atleast as good as wow shows how little you have actually played in the raid environments

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfonlsd View Post
    Ill never understand why people think FFXIV has bad class balance... check out fflogs all the jobs are much closer than you might think
    because that is very easily proven false. top parse alexander ultimate:
    Black Mage: 15335
    Summoner: 14063

    Dancer: 10701
    Red Mage: 11853

    We are talking between 40 and 50% difference in top dps. thats not balanced. not even close. this is because in ffxiv, they follow the classic wow design of utility means loss of dps, but its an extreme loss. Even if you use fflogs and go off the dancers dps with utility damage added, you are still looking at a 30-40% dps difference.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Bozey17 View Post
    Provided that the individual is skilled enough as a player to full clear mythic, than it should be possible to do it with the bots. Again, these bots should be tuned such that it is more difficult to clear content with them in my opinion.

    I will ask you this. Why do players stop grouping up for things once a solo feature is put in? Doesn't that just mean players prefer to play solo? I think most people play video games for gameplay not for social features. In my opinion the social barriers in this game are detrimental to the game experience. There are plenty of examples such as players being gatekeeped by addons such as raider io, returning hardcore players having to carry subpar groups in order to "work their way back up", leavers, etc. An AI party/raid system will fix these problems.
    raider io is there because Blizzard wont adress or change how the have implemented the m+ feature. Thats a whole different discussion but in short, they are trying to create a pro scene for dungeons and everything beneath it suffers because of it.

    If the features Blizzard has fails to deliver a decent social experience for the playerbase overall, it wont really fix anything by adding bots. Thats just ignoring the issue, cause the issue wont dissapear anyway.

    Alot of this comes down to peoples expectations of what the game should give them. Alot of people want to suck and still get whatever a mythic raider gets. Alot of people dont want to put alot of hours into grinds that others do, but they still want the same rewards. People want minimal effort with greatest reward. Bots that sucks wont be something people will like.

    If the difficulty is in the end up to the individual player, the outcry would be huge.

    In short: They want everything(gear, mounts, titles++) that everyone else gets, but without putting relevant work into it.

    If you really put your mind to it, theres no limit to what you can achieve in the game. Not everyone is toxic and assholes. If you can bring the gameskill, knowledge and some legwork, everything is there up for grabs.

    I have missed out on alot of gear, titles & mounts the last couple of years because I chose not do go for them. I didnt want to gear for it, I didnt want to put in the legwork. I just didnt bother. But did I complain about how the game didnt cater to me in order to get it? No. I know that I can get all those things if I want to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    When video games were 100% client-side, players would hack the game files, give themselves god mode, and kill everything in 5 minutes. Then they would get bored and quit. Does that mean we should allow hacking? No, because then you wind up with crap games and it ruins the industry. In fact, after all the hacking that was done to Diablo 1, the players begged for a client-server model to save players from themselves. Players understood they had no self control and needed a system to enforce proper gameplay.

    Its the same thing with multiplayer social games. Lots of players want it, but they have no self control and will ruin the experience by playing solo if they can. That doesn't mean we should never make social games. It means we need to protect players from their own worst instincts.
    this is a very good input.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2020-05-23 at 09:26 PM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    ive played both, wow in top 10 server guilds and ffxiv clearing all savage and ultimate content.

    ffxiv achievements are nothing compared to wows, no real meta achievs, and the raids are infinitely easier until ultimate.
    the class balance in ffxiv is ABYSMAL as the follow the classic wow balancing mindsets. dps and healers are no where even close to balanced in ffxiv in terms of output. saying class balance is atleast as good as wow shows how little you have actually played in the raid environments

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    because that is very easily proven false. top parse alexander ultimate:
    Black Mage: 15335
    Summoner: 14063

    Dancer: 10701
    Red Mage: 11853

    We are talking between 40 and 50% difference in top dps. thats not balanced. not even close. this is because in ffxiv, they follow the classic wow design of utility means loss of dps, but its an extreme loss. Even if you use fflogs and go off the dancers dps with utility damage added, you are still looking at a 30-40% dps difference.

    You are comparing two different roles here, caster dps vs ranged support, rdm not counting. Dancer provides raid buffs and utility that blm just doesn't have. Not to mention if blm moves and is caught out of position their dps tanks.

    Rdm also is very mobile, and you neglect the power of red mage instant rezzes during progression. Seems to me you just like to strawman where you won't have a lot of people with the knowledge to correct you.

    The balancing is DIFFERENT, than wows.

    Seeing as you don't have blm stacked raids in ultimate content, which is different than the million boomkin runs we had in wow mythic for a long while


    Besides wow does have those discrepancies between dps. Fire mage and ww for example.
    Last edited by Scathan; 2020-05-23 at 09:46 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    ive played both, wow in top 10 server guilds and ffxiv clearing all savage and ultimate content.

    ffxiv achievements are nothing compared to wows, no real meta achievs, and the raids are infinitely easier until ultimate.
    the class balance in ffxiv is ABYSMAL as the follow the classic wow balancing mindsets. dps and healers are no where even close to balanced in ffxiv in terms of output. saying class balance is atleast as good as wow shows how little you have actually played in the raid environments

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    because that is very easily proven false. top parse alexander ultimate:
    Black Mage: 15335
    Summoner: 14063

    Dancer: 10701
    Red Mage: 11853

    We are talking between 40 and 50% difference in top dps. thats not balanced. not even close. this is because in ffxiv, they follow the classic wow design of utility means loss of dps, but its an extreme loss. Even if you use fflogs and go off the dancers dps with utility damage added, you are still looking at a 30-40% dps difference.
    But that blackmage has dancer buffs... that kinda skews it.. 1 good parse doesn't determine the game is unbalanced

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Don't see why not, a story run wpuld probably take longer so there's still incentive for grouping up
    I mean, whats the reason to add AIs for a easy dungeon run? Dont normal mode already cover that?

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    You are comparing two different roles here, caster dps vs ranged support, rdm not counting. Dancer provides raid buffs and utility that blm just doesn't have. Not to mention if blm moves and is caught out of position their dps tanks.

    Rdm also is very mobile, and you neglect the power of red mage instant rezzes during progression. Seems to me you just like to strawman where you won't have a lot of people with the knowledge to correct you.

    The balancing is DIFFERENT, than wows.

    Seeing as you don't have blm stacked raids in ultimate content, which is different than the million boomkin runs we had in wow mythic for a long while


    Besides wow does have those discrepancies between dps. Fire mage and ww for example.
    you dont have BLM stacked content because there are only 4 dps, and without 1 melee and 1 ranged you take a party wide damage down. There was a point in Eden savage where people were not taking a ranged, because melee's were doing so much more that the damage down didnt make up for it. SE had to buff dancer over and over, as well as MCH and BRD.

    i already said the balancing is different. in the post you quoted i literally said they balance not based on dps, but on dps/utility/raid buffs. it is my opinion, that this is bad. that is all. I dont want to play a RDM when BLM can do 40-50% more damage. The dps class balance in FFXIV purely numerically, is dog shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfonlsd View Post
    But that blackmage has dancer buffs... that kinda skews it.. 1 good parse doesn't determine the game is unbalanced
    without a black mage in the party, that dancer wouldnt be as effective. when dancer didnt exist, BLM was still #1 by huge percentages. Its not 1 good parse, its top 100 vs top 100.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Well, lore, and you'd throw solo players a bone, I don't see the harm in letting players play how they want to.
    Doesnt really help now does it? Normal is beyond easy, its literally almost doing nothing and watch mobs die. With AIs in this difficulty, no one would have any reason for it. Thats not what people want. They want AIs to carry them in meaningful content, that gives meaningful gear, titles and achives.

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