Make Solo Dungeons Viable

[Limezero]

With all due respect, the "it's an MMO bro" and the "muh social anxiety" people are both retarded. Most people don't play WoW specifically because it's a multiplayer game, they play it because it's WoW. Some of them play it for transmog, some of them play it exclusively for PvP and don't give a shit about anything else, some of them play it for RP events, some of them don't care about any of that and just want to solo old raids for pets, some of them play it as an RPG with a combat system and cool animations while trying their best to ignore the four randoms they're forced to share their game with. You COULD make WoW itself as a singleplayer game, with the same exact progression, world, questing, movement system, spells, lore and so forth, and there are people who legitimately want that. If your argument is "go play a singleplayer game", you cannot reason why Blizzard shouldn't release THIS game as a singleplayer one (besides time and finances), especially if you just told somebody that they SHOULDN'T play it at all. You're basically looking at somebody playing the game with an offline server emulator, and saying that the game should be taken away from them and they should be forced to play the online version, because you know what's good for them.

Second, WoW isn't about loot. It's about gameplay. Loot simply exists as a means to an end, to incentivize gameplay, and provide a REASON for it. You could REMOVE LOOT ALTOGETHER, and incentivize players with cosmetic rewards instead (like many systems do already), or by unlocking more of it, or by literally making it so unbelievably fun and engaging that players will put hundreds of hours into the game just to experience it for its own sake (like MOBAs, roguelikes, or Minecraft do). The only concern with removing rewards or making them too easy to obtain is that people will become bored without a carrot on a stick to constantly chase, thus you can justify having them as an incentive to prop up the rest of the game.

Third, WoW lacks properly tuned, difficult, singleplayer experiences for the most part. Blizzard occasionally throws in relevant gameplay that is tuned for a single person (Warlock green fire questline, mage tower in Legion), but it is the exception rather than the norm. Visions and Torghast are a step in this direction, because the idea is that they're challenging content that you can choose to do with zero, one, or four other people. I would argue that the incentive to play with others shouldn't be "you're forced to play with them", with the promise of "trust me you'll thank us later", it should be to let people choose however the fuck they want to play and trust that they're intelligent enough to realize whether playing with others would be more fun for them. Diablo 3, for all its faults, is the perfect example for this. You can choose to play with others at any time, and there's a global chat system that still makes it feel like a community based multiplayer game (something WoW sorely lacks outside private servers, for reasons I still can't comprehend). You could change WoW's progression system so that it's equally as challenging to play singleplayer, and make multiplayer an entirely optional experience. Whether that would be a good or a bad thing for the game's health is impossible to say, because you'd need to actually do that in the real world, execute it properly, then observe the results 3-4 years down the line.

Fourth, a lot of people (myself included) look at the existing "tourist" modes like the dungeon finder and LFR as a way to learn the instance, and something you should be expected to do on your own time so that you don't ruin other people's fun once you're doing it "for real" (something the "proving grounds" feature was intended to do in Mists and WoD). A better and more effective version of watching a Fatboss video before the pull, in a sense. LFR and leveling dungeons COMPLETELY fail at this. People are incentivied to speedrun them because of their lack of difficulty - to the point of completely ignoring mechanics, mass pulling all the trash, treating every boss like Patchwerk, and kicking players who slow the group down or don't know what to. This is the exact argument people who want LFR removed make. In my ideal world, you could queue up for a raid with bots that behave (convincingly) like players, and practice tanking or healing an encounter on your own time for 7 hours while spending half of it alt+tabbed, possibly without even any loot. This could change things in a way that you'd be expected to do all the learning on your own, which is still a tradeoff, but I don't think it would be a worse state of affairs than normal dungeons and LFR currently are. Enabling solo gameplay as an equal option (like M+ did for raiding) would change the meta of the game to a significant extent, but removing LFR and adding a properly tuned bot mode in its place that actually teaches you the mechanics of an encounter and lets you experiment, in my opinion wouldn't. I'd even combine it with the old proving grounds system that gives you a badge next to your name, and make it AS challenging as completing a current-tier, normal difficulty raid where your personal mistakes will wipe the group and you yourself dying will disqualify you from completing it. Same with letting you queue normal dungeons with bots. If it's not more time effective than doing it with 4 other players and it's tuned in such a way that being AFK disqualifies you, then problem solved.

[tmamass]

Why can't there just be the option for those thing in WoW as well tho?

Wow is INTENDED a MMO.
If you wanna play solo cause people are toxic (and you dont see that the problem is in front of your monitor) go play a SOLO game.
"problem" solved. you are welcome

[The Oblivion]

Wow is INTENDED a MMO.
If you wanna play solo cause people are toxic (and you dont see that the problem is in front of your monitor) go play a SOLO game.
"problem" solved. you are welcome

ffxiv is an MMO. but it was AI for dungeons. weird how that works

[SkagenRora]

Wow is INTENDED a MMO.
If you wanna play solo cause people are toxic (and you dont see that the problem is in front of your monitor) go play a SOLO game.
"problem" solved. you are welcome

Or just give us a solo option for those that prefer that.

Why are we making this into one of those "Flying vs non-flying" discussions? Just let people choose the thing that they prefer, Just because there is an option to do something solo.. dosen't mean you or any one else have to use that option, But that option might be more enjoyable for someone else.

There is no reason why there can't just be 2 options for people to choose from.

Visions, torgast and every world quests can be done solo, Why not expand the option to all content?

[Rune B]

I totally support this idea. But perhaps rather than bots, each dungeon and raid could have a story mode that was playable by any number of characters, even if they didn't reward much.

Believe it or not there are a lot of people who play casual, solo or altoholic or even PvP, who hardly ever dungeon or raid, but would enjoy seeing the content. Although they could wait a couple of years for the content to be outleveled, I think story mode would be fun for when people are not feeling all that sociable.

Times change and games have to evolve along with them.

[devilzxlin]

i dont recommend use bots in world of warcraft,bots are not allowed in mmorpg games,you will get banned.never trade with those players who use bots to farm,choose the player to player world of warcraft trade platform

[Nato85]

Wow could use account wide currency....

I dont want to play my alts because I feel so far behind with them....it would take me weeks to bring them up to the same scratch as my other characters

Account wide rep as well..

[cuafpr]

I think they are close to it... BFA had the enhanced AI on the islands, in SL Alpha the starting dungeon it's you and 2 other NPC's. I would love this even if it's just normal difficulty.

[Sluvs]

ffxiv and wow would both improve a lot if they would be more willing to use one anothers ideas.

WoW could use:
Trusts
End game flying system
Gearing system (tokens, best gear from raids)
Quick travel system

Ffxiv could use:
Meta Achievs (i.e achievs that give mounts, titles, etc, a reason to do older content)
Raid design
Class balance (the balance in ffxiv is dog shit compared to WoW)

these are just a few quick ones, the 2 games could really improve by implementing things that work in the other.

FFXIV could also improve on UI, map design, acessibility...

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but man, that game has unnecessary clutter ALL AROUND

[Super Kami Dende]

Then you shouldnt take part in a MMORPG game where playing with others are a huge part of said genre.

Oh fuck off, that's such a bullshit point of view. I still enjoy playing with others, but don't think it should be required to 100% of the time just to have fun in the game.

[Super Kami Dende]

Ffxiv could use:
Meta Achievs (i.e achievs that give mounts, titles, etc, a reason to do older content)

FFXIV does have Meta Achieves for Mounts/Titles.

[crusadernero]

Oh fuck off, that's such a bullshit point of view. I still enjoy playing with others, but don't think it should be required to 100% of the time just to have fun in the game.

Tell me, where in retail wow cant you experience the game alone right now? If you dont do anything challenging content, you might awell treat the ppl there as bots. But what are you after here? Bots that carry you in difficult challenges or just a tourist mode that clears content you already will experience anyway?

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I swear I hear that worn out excuse of an argument everytime someone suggests something innovative and progressive for the game.

"MaYbE yOu ShOuLdNt pLaY MmO tHeN"

Innovative? Progressive? Whats Innovating and progressive about adding solo features into a MMORPG? Whats so amazing about stepping further and further away from an actual MMORPG and more of a solo game? Thats not innovating nor progressive.

BLizzard should instead double down on guilds, groups, dungeons, raids +++ and make sure the enjoyment of actually grouping up with like minded people is good in a MMORPG.

instead you want Blizzard to be lazy and just add bots that carry us through the game.

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What doesn't help? And why are we talking about difficulty? I don't care about difficulty.

If there's a group of people that would like to play alone, because they enjoy Warcraft but aren't super social, I say give them a way to do so as long as it doesn't incentivize grouping less, which it wouldn't if AIs were slower to make their way through the dungeon.

You're appealing to some populist argument of ''people don't want that'' like it holds any weight, like you know what people want, and you're asking, ''Why would anyone do that?'' and I'm telling you that PERHAPS there's a group of people out there that would like to go through dungeons getting some lore along the way from major characters and PERHAPS there's a group of people out there that really like Warcraft, but aren't really into MMOs, if the resources are there, accomdate those people.

And how would a tourist mode solve anything when it comes down to dungeons? People would just be upset the bots dont take them to higher difficulties for better gear. If you complete the quests in a zone then enter normal dungeon, you get the lore and story of it already. So thats not what people really want here, its something else.

[crusadernero]

Or just give us a solo option for those that prefer that.

Why are we making this into one of those "Flying vs non-flying" discussions? Just let people choose the thing that they prefer, Just because there is an option to do something solo.. dosen't mean you or any one else have to use that option, But that option might be more enjoyable for someone else.

There is no reason why there can't just be 2 options for people to choose from.

Visions, torgast and every world quests can be done solo, Why not expand the option to all content?

Lets say you can do m+ 10 solo by buying bots that carry you through the instance. No one in this game would ever bother to group up for any dungeon related again. This is a great example of players ruining the game without realising it before its to late.

People dont choose flying or running on ground. Everyone flies because thats the most effective and easiest of the two, even if you can choose to run. If you have heirlooms you can choose to lvl without it, but no one does cause its less effective.

What this solo features does is ruining the experience of a MMORPG

[Very Tired]

You people know MMO means a large multiplayer game you play online... right? There's nothing in that definition that says players need to be grouped up together to do anything. It just means there's other people on the servers along with you.

And even if it did, Blizzard shouldn't adhere to a strictly grouping system like it's some sort of international law they aren't allowed to break. A better game design should always take first priority. So it's probably best you stop using that argument.

Personally, I think it's great Blizzard has added Mage Towers, Horrific Visions, and now Torghast. Players should have something challenging to do when they are by themselves.

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Lets say you can do m+ 10 solo by buying bots that carry you through the instance. No one in this game would ever bother to group up for any dungeon related again. This is a great example of players ruining the game without realising it before its to late.

People dont choose flying or running on ground. Everyone flies because thats the most effective and easiest of the two, even if you can choose to run. If you have heirlooms you can choose to lvl without it, but no one does cause its less effective.

What this solo features does is ruining the experience of a MMORPG

Well first of all, a 10+ isn't even the max mythic+ and people would still need to group up to get the best mythic+ reward.

Second, that's a strawman. You can't use that to argue against solo play because that's nothing even close to what Blizzard would do if they made such changes.

[BeepBoo]

As stated before, some people have problems for every solution.


Exactly, if it works in other MMO's it would work in WoW as well, obviously they are testing it out with the Shadowlands introduction already.

Name an MMO that has solo versions of it's top tier content. Not that OP is asking for solo raids or high m+ keys... but... if those other games are still limiting stuff behind non-solo environments, all you're really arguing is an arbitrary line in the sand.

[crusadernero]

Can you mention MMORPG a little more in your posts? I dont think you're mentioning it enough.

And thats your problem, your own definition of how you feel the game is supposed to be.
At the end of the day its Blizzard who decides what they want their game to be, even if it happens to cater to single-player choices.

Ofc its up to Blizzard what they want to do, thats quite obvious. I just enjoy debating this issue. I have played since vanilla and all of my strongest and best memories comes from playing with other people, not what a AI has done with me. That aspect is what really makes a MMORPG stand out compared to lets say Skyrim or any other solo gaming experience. You are there clearing and seeing content with other people, overcoming challenges with other people. It is different than compared to what a AI can give you.

I just fear that if Blizz adds more solo heavy features theres nothing left of what made wow really strong. I also think alot of people are missing out on great experiences in the game because they have decided that everyone is toxic or mean, when thats not really true. There are assholes ofc, but not everyone are. THere are friendly and good players out there too.

[Eapoe]

Everyone pointing out FF14 having bot dungeons, but from what I’ve read here no one has spoken about how those dungeons play out, the difficulty of, or how pulls/clears works. From what I’ve read on Otaku, bots in FF14 are basically cheat mode where tanks, heals, and damage play better than real people.
Also, as I asked before, where does this end? Is this only for normal difficulty, or does it apply to LFD only where you get bonus damage/healing/health?
People that argue they want to see dungeon RP and explore, you can do that 1/2 way thru an xpac by just outgearing normal and running it solo.
People that use the “just don’t do it but give us the option” argument are as full of it as the flying vs pathfinder debate. Other than RP people that do things for added feels or challenge, everyone chooses the easiest option that lets them play faster and skip the most hardships.
Also also, as pointed out and furthered upon by reading about FF14, AI is not at a point, anywhere, that functions like true players and is designed in a way that it is not helpful and functions poorly, or it’s too good and is basically god mode.
Then there’s the fact that players would use this to game the system. Imagine currency or crafting items dropping. Players would solo these things for quick profiteering. Imagine a dungeon with mobs you can skin or use engineering on. Players would queue for those and then reap massive rewards. To counter that, Blizzard would have to make items not drop, or crafting items not be available, or severely reduce them that it almost wouldn’t be worth it. All options open up a whole new list of problems and upset for the playerbase.

[Sansnom]

Wow is INTENDED a MMO.
If you wanna play solo cause people are toxic (and you dont see that the problem is in front of your monitor) go play a SOLO game.
"problem" solved. you are welcome

No. It it is not solved. It is avoiding the problem.

Why is it their problem that people are toxic? That kind of reply is not helping.

[Bladesyphon]

The same MMORPG-game where you get a group of NPCs teaming up with you in the introduction of the next expansion?

Oh, yeah. Looks like Blizzard and you have different opinions on where to develop the game, and thankfully they try to innovate stuff instead of holding on to a 20+ year old genre-definition with a death-grip like some people in this thread are.

They're adding that to ensure WoW doesn't have the same problem XIV had/has - locking character progression though queue times. A new player is forced to go through the new starting content, which ends with a dungeon. The dungeon has to be completed in order to progress onto the main game. Now, imagine you're a new player, and you need to complete said dungeon, but the game can't find anyone to queue with. You're now stuck at a brick wall, unable to progress due to this dungeon.

The only way to ensure this doesn't happen is to make it so that the dungeon will auto-fill with AI if it cannot find a group of real people to match you with. I had this issue in Shadowbringers, coming in late to the game last year. There's three Trials (one single fifteen minute instanced boss encounter - think Malygos) that the story, and end-game, are locked behind. These Trials offer litearlly nothing for completing them, so there is zero reason to go back and do them a second time unless it pops up in the Trial Roulette (which is a pretty damn low chance given how many Trials are in the game, the fact that the Trial ROulette's rewards are pretty meh, and that people game the queue by equipping low ilvl gear in order to get the easier Trials to pop up).

This lead to me waiting for over an hour in all three Trials as a TANK, in order to complete them and move on with the story. Nothing says "Oh man, this is such an epic conclusion to the story" like watching the final boss make his apperance, your character get ready to fight, and then stand there for an hour in queue because SE are incompetent enough to lock the ENTIRE END GAME behind a single boss encounter that has zero rewards tied to it.

The AI in the tutorial dungeon is a redundancy to ensure that this scenario doesn't happen, because unlike SE, Blizzard are actually competent when it comes to game design.

[Jamie081]

Some of y'all should learn to socialise and make friends instead of calling everyone toxic and advocating to play as a loner. That sounds like projection. Just a thought.