Why is it a bad thing that the Blood Knights got redeemed?

[united]

This seems to be a popular opinion in discussion regarding Lady Liadrin and the Blood Knights -- that it was a bad thing that the Blood Knights are no longer enslaving naaru, and that it's bad that they're no longer "edgier" paladins or whatever.

I don't understand that hot take. Liadrin actually was always a devout follower of the Light, it's just that her ideals were shaken when Arthas sacked Quel'thalas. This to me is understandable, Arthas screwed a lot of people's lives up in many different ways. But why is it a bad thing for blood elves to have become redeemed at the end of the BC? I've seen so many people criticize this decision and I don't get why. To me it seems like the natural way to go when telling a story of redemption and moving past Arthas' reign.

[Schattenlied]

From what I've seen the criticism didn't occur at the time, but later down the line, when they started doing shit that "redeemed" Paladins shouldn't be doing, like fighting for blatantly evil genocidal maniacs... If they were "redeemed" they never should have been on board with any of that shit, so they would have been better off leaving them as they were so their behavior would have at least made sense.

[united]

From what I've seen the criticism didn't occur at the time, but later down the line, when they started doing shit that "redeemed" Paladins shouldn't be doing, like fighting for blatantly evil genocidal maniacs... If they were "redeemed" they never should have been on board with any of that shit, so they would have been better off leaving them as they were so their behavior would have at least made sense.

Lol you mean like Liadrin yelling darkness cannot abide within the Light at Turalyon and the rest of the Alliance after Teldrassil?

Fwiw though, she did side with Saurfang.

[Schattenlied]

Lol you mean like Liadrin yelling darkness cannot abide within the Light at Turalyon and the rest of the Alliance after Teldrassil?

Yes, exactly like that.

Fwiw though, she did side with Saurfang.

After assisting in a pointless war followed by a genocide, and then more pointless warring, while the planet has a sword the size of a small country sticking out of it and is bleeding to death... When both factions should have been focusing on, you know, healing the planet, not exploiting it's hemorrhaging woundswoons to make weapons and starting wars.

She should have never been on board with the war in the first place, most of the Horde shouldn't have been...

[Super Dickmann]

Because it eliminated an interesting racial spin on a class to replace it with a bland pastiche we already had on a few other races. It's not about it not making in-story sense - yes, once the Blood Elves had the Sunwell back then a change that was in their society for a couple years should be reverted to them doing what they did before. It's about it as an out of story plot development. The Blood Elves are red High Elves devoid of any of the traits that made them distinguishable and a logical member of the Horde.

Police state with mind control? Gone, Bob's a chill dude. Fel magic? Unnecessary, and later retconned to not having been used at all anyway, those giant crystals of demon magic were actually there all along and the blood elves didn't know they were evil. Addiction to magic as driving motivator? Gone, they don't have to do anything as they have the Sunwell. Loss of ties to the Alliance due to the cultural split caused by the above? Gone, the draenei are the ones to solve their problem and their link to the Forsaken is gone in a side-story. The end of TBC eliminates every trait that justifies their role in the game - they have no reason to be in the Horde, no reason to engage in any conflict since their main drive to do so, that being their addiction to magic has been cut. Their story is done. They serve no purpose.

Redeeming Liadrin made her the most boring woman alive - I dare you to find me a single definable character trait she has except that she really likes the Light. Redeeming the Blood Elves is that writ large - it robbed the race of all unique characteristics to turn them into long-eared magic humans on the wrong faction.

[mysticx]

Lol you mean like Liadrin yelling darkness cannot abide within the Light at Turalyon and the rest of the Alliance after Teldrassil?

Fwiw though, she did side with Saurfang.

Well, any paladins, or shaman, let alone druids siding with Sylvanas after that is quite frankly ludicrous, but that whole thing was a matter of "gameplay over story", anyway.

It's mostly the edgelord-section of Horde players (You know the type, play Forsaken, blood elf, or occasionally Zandalari, making "Bonfire" or "Marshmallows" jokes in every thread about Teldrassil) who object to the Blood knights becoming more paladin-esque in their actions, they just want to play the evil faction, and paladins acting like actual paladins goes against that.

[Kaleredar]

While I agree with the above noted hypocrisy, I think, in general, people opposing the “redemption” of the blood knights just like the supposed “3edgy5u” angle for the horde.

“Why did the blood elves NEED the forgiveness of the light?! They were better when they were COOL and POWERFUL and didn’t HAVE to care about the light like those other sheeple races! I don’t care what blizzard says! My BE paladin wields a libram entitled ‘the light delusion’ by the forsaken shadow priest Richard D’aw-keens who was kicked out of the argent dawn for being too awesome and it’s bound in the skins of innocent alliance children!”

And so on and so forth in that vein.


These are usually also the people who think sylvanas is a deep and compelling character.


Inb4 “OH but ANDUIN...”

[Lolites]

This seems to be a popular opinion in discussion regarding Lady Liadrin and the Blood Knights -- that it was a bad thing that the Blood Knights are no longer enslaving naaru, and that it's bad that they're no longer "edgier" paladins or whatever.

I don't understand that hot take. Liadrin actually was always a devout follower of the Light, it's just that her ideals were shaken when Arthas sacked Quel'thalas. This to me is understandable, Arthas screwed a lot of people's lives up in many different ways. But why is it a bad thing for blood elves to have become redeemed at the end of the BC? I've seen so many people criticize this decision and I don't get why. To me it seems like the natural way to go when telling a story of redemption and moving past Arthas' reign.

from my point of view, they were unique and interesting, after the completely unnecessary "redemption" they are human paladins with pointy ears

[Super Dickmann]

My BE paladin wields a libram entitled ‘the light delusion’ by the forsaken shadow priest Richard D’aw-keens

S'am Har-Reece is also a popular choice lately.

Incidentally, Blood Elves filling both the niches of generic high elves and of dark elves makes them uniquely a mess as far as the game is concerned. Other races with several appeals either have it so fringe that there's like two people who claim they're important like with arcane night elves, have the two sides mostly get along on the basics like WC2 and WC3 orcs or have one side be entirely hypothetical because no one actually playing the race wants it, like Calia Forsaken.

Blood Elves on the other hand fail to provide the generic high elf experience despite having all its traits because they're on the wrong faction and gameplay necessity will put it at odds with those it should be allies with, resulting in shit like how Liadrin never helps the rebels on-screen and is ready to fight a fellow paladin to the death on behalf of a zombie. At the same time, after their TBC redemption arc they are completely unsuited to providing the dark elf niche either and no longer even have the arcane going for them now that Nightborne are a thing, so their players pivot to Sylvanas instead. This results in that especially obnoxious contingent who give shit to Garrosh or Orgrim but defend Sylvanas or will tell you at length about how the Stonespire and muh Taurajo were no big deal, but it's actually the Purge of Dalaran and those night elves in the Ghostlands that're like another Holodomor.

[Razion]

The Alliance recently took in the Lightforged, so it would be a good angle for the Blood Elves to have this angle as a way to instigate some level of antagonism in the other faction as a dynamic and conflict that characters can interact with - it can create opportunities for storytelling.

But, apart from just that angle, the complaint has been there long before Lightforged were introduced into the setting. I believe it's something unique to the Blood Elves, and as such, something special that can help characterize and establish and put in perspective their place in the setting. The Blood Elves were introduced historically as a race defined by their mana addiction and their craving for power - their incessant NEED for it. It wasn't just that they wanted power, they were addicted to it, and "damning one of the most noble beings of all," in the words of Liadrin at the Sunwell, was one of the most egregious things their people ever did. But it DEFINED them. Not every character has to be their scars or not change forever, but for all of Blood Elf society to take a complete 180 is probably seen as a betrayal of the fantasy some may have signed up for. To some extent, there not even being a fight or any kind of dispute among Blood Elves, no story as to whether some wanted to keep abusing the Naaru or not, or at least if they weren't to see the odd case of a Blood Elf who was still so addicted but not near the Sunwell would go to insane lengths to maybe try and get that power to satiate themselves. The Blood Elves are still addicts, but they sate themselves on the Sunwell.

So especially now that we're going into Shadowlands, where Blood Elves may be cut off from the Sunwell, will that craze for power come back? This is one angle we can look to and say, well, if there are Naaru anywhere in the Shadowlands, maybe the Blood Elves would seek it out. Especially with the Blood Elves potentially running into Kael'thas Sunstrider again, there may be opportunities for old-fashioned Blood Elves who may want to return to the old ways when times were perhaps more favorable for them as individuals. Like, some people obviously made a killing in their society from all the mana addiction -- all those parties and drugs and everything going around in all those early quests. It's just so surprising there was almost not even a whimper of an outcry in their society against the changes. And to some extent the ultimate success of it was probably expected because the Sunwell was just there and accessible to everyone, so even the Withered would probably even be cured... but for no development, this entire angle not to be addressed in the story in a way where Blood Elves can turn to it as their own identity probably hurts a lot.

It probably hurts a lot more knowing that the turn from something so uniquely theirs basically went to quintessential Light worship that Humans, Dwarves, and the Draenei were doing already. So now the Blood Elves not only don't have their own edgy take on Paladins, but now they're just as simple, as basic, or even could be seen as just carbon copies of their enemies, the Alliance.

[cparle87]

The Alliance recently took in the Lightforged, so it would be a good angle for the Blood Elves to have this angle as a way to instigate some level of antagonism in the other faction as a dynamic and conflict that characters can interact with - it can create opportunities for storytelling.

But, apart from just that angle, the complaint has been there long before Lightforged were introduced into the setting. I believe it's something unique to the Blood Elves, and as such, something special that can help characterize and establish and put in perspective their place in the setting. The Blood Elves were introduced historically as a race defined by their mana addiction and their craving for power - their incessant NEED for it. It wasn't just that they wanted power, they were addicted to it, and "damning one of the most noble beings of all," in the words of Liadrin at the Sunwell, was one of the most egregious things their people ever did. But it DEFINED them. Not every character has to be their scars or not change forever, but for all of Blood Elf society to take a complete 180 is probably seen as a betrayal of the fantasy some may have signed up for. To some extent, there not even being a fight or any kind of dispute among Blood Elves, no story as to whether some wanted to keep abusing the Naaru or not, or at least if they weren't to see the odd case of a Blood Elf who was still so addicted but not near the Sunwell would go to insane lengths to maybe try and get that power to satiate themselves. The Blood Elves are still addicts, but they sate themselves on the Sunwell.

So especially now that we're going into Shadowlands, where Blood Elves may be cut off from the Sunwell, will that craze for power come back? This is one angle we can look to and say, well, if there are Naaru anywhere in the Shadowlands, maybe the Blood Elves would seek it out. Especially with the Blood Elves potentially running into Kael'thas Sunstrider again, there may be opportunities for old-fashioned Blood Elves who may want to return to the old ways when times were perhaps more favorable for them as individuals. Like, some people obviously made a killing in their society from all the mana addiction -- all those parties and drugs and everything going around in all those early quests. It's just so surprising there was almost not even a whimper of an outcry in their society against the changes. And to some extent the ultimate success of it was probably expected because the Sunwell was just there and accessible to everyone, so even the Withered would probably even be cured... but for no development, this entire angle not to be addressed in the story in a way where Blood Elves can turn to it as their own identity probably hurts a lot.

It probably hurts a lot more knowing that the turn from something so uniquely theirs basically went to quintessential Light worship that Humans, Dwarves, and the Draenei were doing already. So now the Blood Elves not only don't have their own edgy take on Paladins, but now they're just as simple, as basic, or even could be seen as just carbon copies of their enemies, the Alliance.

The high elves were light worshippers before they became blood elves. High elves were the priest unit for WC3 and Liadrin was a priestess before Quel'thalas. Saying they're carbon copies of human is kinda funny, cause basing on the relative ages of the two races the humans probably copied light worship from the elves.

[Niroshi]

It robbed them of the sole interesting trait that they had. Magic withdrawals and their inherent desperation that pushed them to cross taboos like enslaving a Naaru are basically the only things that really made them unique. These days their thirst is basically quenched, they're not under any kind of threat from neighbors and even the Alliance is generally kind of chill with them. If not for the forced faction conflict they would likely be fully independent again.

Without the "edginess" of the TBC Blood Elves they're just kind of there. No sagely wisdom held due to their long lives. No grand crusade or sacred duty. They aren't even the go-to when it comes to matters of the Arcane, the Light or even building magical constructs.

Their entire history is that of a people that shirked responsibility and then fucked off only to be rescued by outside forces. They straight needed that addiction to keep them from being completely boring.

[Sanguinerd]

Because it further pushed the Horde to become the red Alliance they are today.

[Xykotic]

Well, any paladins, or shaman, let alone druids siding with Sylvanas after that is quite frankly ludicrous, but that whole thing was a matter of "gameplay over story", anyway.

It's mostly the edgelord-section of Horde players (You know the type, play Forsaken, blood elf, or occasionally Zandalari, making "Bonfire" or "Marshmallows" jokes in every thread about Teldrassil) who object to the Blood knights becoming more paladin-esque in their actions, they just want to play the evil faction, and paladins acting like actual paladins goes against that.

I feel like the majority of people, including horde people, should not reasonably have sided with Sylvanas. I felt it was straight up offensively stupid to force Death Knights to side with her, considering the Ebon Blade has been in a cold war with Sylvanas since Cataclysm and not even formally Horde. The notion that the LEADER of the Ebon Blade would just leave to go be a Sylvanas lackey was part of what made me hate BfA with a passion. I just couldn't reconcile it.

[Gestopft]

Because any plot point in the Warcraft universe is not allowed to advance without upsetting the headcanon that some people had, and as such will be opposed.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

It robbed them of the sole interesting trait that they had. Magic withdrawals and their inherent desperation that pushed them to cross taboos like enslaving a Naaru are basically the only things that really made them unique. These days their thirst is basically quenched, they're not under any kind of threat from neighbors and even the Alliance is generally kind of chill with them. If not for the forced faction conflict they would likely be fully independent again.

Without the "edginess" of the TBC Blood Elves they're just kind of there. No sagely wisdom held due to their long lives. No grand crusade or sacred duty. They aren't even the go-to when it comes to matters of the Arcane, the Light or even building magical constructs.

Their entire history is that of a people that shirked responsibility and then fucked off only to be rescued by outside forces. They straight needed that addiction to keep them from being completely boring.

Indeed, they're just another flavour of elf at the moment. It's so dull and boring.
Liadrin is hot though.

[Tanaria]

It robbed them of the sole interesting trait that they had. Magic withdrawals and their inherent desperation that pushed them to cross taboos like enslaving a Naaru are basically the only things that really made them unique. These days their thirst is basically quenched, they're not under any kind of threat from neighbors and even the Alliance is generally kind of chill with them. If not for the forced faction conflict they would likely be fully independent again.

Without the "edginess" of the TBC Blood Elves they're just kind of there. No sagely wisdom held due to their long lives. No grand crusade or sacred duty. They aren't even the go-to when it comes to matters of the Arcane, the Light or even building magical constructs.

Their entire history is that of a people that shirked responsibility and then fucked off only to be rescued by outside forces. They straight needed that addiction to keep them from being completely boring.

I'd hate to admit it, but your right.

Blood Elves are primarily being written as either the "Human Paladins of the Horde" and simply, "Elven Rangers."
Their is no...wow-ness to them. I think Blizzard need to go back and write them in the direction of a race, still wielding arcane magic and remaining that stark contract to the Night Elves.

Currently, it feels the night elves are being written as the "arcane-wielding elves" and the blood elves are the "warrior/ranger/fighter" type of elves, when it was and should be, the other way round.

[Tarba]

This seems to be a popular opinion in discussion regarding Lady Liadrin and the Blood Knights -- that it was a bad thing that the Blood Knights are no longer enslaving naaru, and that it's bad that they're no longer "edgier" paladins or whatever.

I don't understand that hot take. Liadrin actually was always a devout follower of the Light, it's just that her ideals were shaken when Arthas sacked Quel'thalas. This to me is understandable, Arthas screwed a lot of people's lives up in many different ways. But why is it a bad thing for blood elves to have become redeemed at the end of the BC? I've seen so many people criticize this decision and I don't get why. To me it seems like the natural way to go when telling a story of redemption and moving past Arthas' reign.

Because the only other option for everything is the bland lawfull good option written for 8 years old. Also they have absolutely no reason to get some weird feith. They could have stuck with them using the power of the well.
But heh even forsaken are good guys now for some "character development bullshit" made by complete retards with absolutely no kind of skill in writting.

[Venziir]

This seems to be a popular opinion in discussion regarding Lady Liadrin and the Blood Knights -- that it was a bad thing that the Blood Knights are no longer enslaving naaru, and that it's bad that they're no longer "edgier" paladins or whatever.

I don't understand that hot take. Liadrin actually was always a devout follower of the Light, it's just that her ideals were shaken when Arthas sacked Quel'thalas. This to me is understandable, Arthas screwed a lot of people's lives up in many different ways. But why is it a bad thing for blood elves to have become redeemed at the end of the BC? I've seen so many people criticize this decision and I don't get why. To me it seems like the natural way to go when telling a story of redemption and moving past Arthas' reign.

This thread seems about 12 years late,

[Thalassian Bob]

From what I've seen the criticism didn't occur at the time, but later down the line, when they started doing shit that "redeemed" Paladins shouldn't be doing, like fighting for blatantly evil genocidal maniacs... If they were "redeemed" they never should have been on board with any of that shit, so they would have been better off leaving them as they were so their behavior would have at least made sense.

The ability to wield the Light is all about strength of faith. If a paladin's faith is strong enough, they can use the Light to do anything, including some pretty morally reprehensible acts. It's why the Scarlet Crusade were able to use Light magic in their ruthless campaign against all things undead (and anyone they deemed to be helping their enemies). It's why Sir Zeliek was still able to wield the Light despite being an (unwilling) agent of the Scourge.

The Blood Knight campaign in Arathi happened before the burning of Teldrassil. The Fourth War hadn't really gotten into full-swing at that point and tales like those of the razing of Brennadam probably hadn't made their way back from the front through the rank and file.

Liadrin and her Blood Knights were following a legitimately chosen Warchief - and a former Ranger-General of Silvermoon - into battle against the faction's long-standing foes. The Blood Knight matriarch and her followers were fighting to hold the Arathi Highlands and, though he took the crown by nefarious means, the rightful heir to the Stromgarde throne, Galen Trollbane, was nominally aligned with the Horde before he was murdered by the Knights of the Ebon Blade. So, it could be argued that the Horde campaign in the Arathi Highlands was a defensive one. That could have been all the rationale Liadrin needed for her to wield the Light into battle in the Fourth War.

It's also worth remembering that the night elves attempted to kick the blood elves when they were at their lowest, attempting to sabotage the arcane sanctums of Quel'Thalas that acted as one of the few fonts of arcane energy when very young, very old and very sick blood elves were dying of withdrawal.

So, even after the burning of Teldrassil, many Blood Knights may have deemed it just to continue a campaign against the night elves out of some belief in righteous vengeance.