Would you be a fan of affixes with positive effects?

[deenman]

It's cool to get gear, sure, but they become trivial once people hit a certain level of gear. People running 25+ aren't being more rewarded than people running 15s.

Running challenge mode was relevant all expansion long and never got outgeared, and you were rewarded for being the best.

M+ is average at best.

wait what?once you did them all you were done,you got the transmog,m+ gear gets updated every patch,also you farm it for upgrades and corruption(before the buff to visions),and wile the challenge mode static gear thing is nice,its still capped,m+ isnt capped,ironicaly the real ''challenge'' wasnt in the challenge mode

[Tziva]

It's cool to get gear, sure, but they become trivial once people hit a certain level of gear. People running 25+ aren't being more rewarded than people running 15s.

They don't ever become trivial, that's the point. When they get too easy, you push to a harder level. Unlike CMs which scaled down to a flat consistent level and had only one level of difficulty, Mythics can have any difficulty level you desire, up or down.

Yeah, rewards stop scaling after a certain point but that beats CMs that had no rewards at all except for the first time you completed them successfully.

Running challenge mode was relevant all expansion long and never got outgeared, and you were rewarded for being the best.

How were you rewarded for being best in CMs? This is a sincere question.

All I remember is getting the rewards when you got gold in all the dungeons, probably the equivalent of Keystone Master now. Unless I'm forgetting something, there's no reward at all for doing them additional times, much less for doing better or being the best.

[scvd]

They don't ever become trivial, that's the point. When they get too easy, you push to a harder level. Unlike CMs which scaled down to a flat consistent level and had only one level of difficulty, Mythics can have any difficulty level you desire, up or down.

Yeah, rewards stop scaling after a certain point but that beats CMs that had no rewards at all except for the first time you completed them successfully.


How were you rewarded for being best in CMs? This is a sincere question.

All I remember is getting the rewards when you got gold in all the dungeons, probably the equivalent of Keystone Master now. Unless I'm forgetting something, there's no reward at all for doing them additional times, much less for doing better or being the best.

They do become trivial, like they are now. I run one plus 15 per week in no time, because we outgear it and the only thing it's worth is an RNG piece of gear once per week. Running anything above 15 is pointless.

As for CMs, each dungeon had a unique title for being realm first time, ultimately removed but you were rewarded "Mistwalker" at the end of it.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but as a skill based system, it was infinitely better than "whats your RIO and ilvl brah" bullshit.

[Dimmak]

I would live to see more affixed with a positive and a negative. Probably weight it more on the negative .

Ie in horrific visions there is one that alternates from haste to slow. Another that makes a void zone that buffs 20 percent if you stand in it and minus 10 if you dont. These are more interesting than just move out of crap.

Imagine if explosive affix spawned explosive modes with much more health but when you kill them they explode and damage the enemies. Maybe you pull trash in with the boss to get these to explode on the boss?

Though I really wish timers were removed. I hate always rushing like crazy in a dungeon.

[Tziva]

They do become trivial, like they are now. I run one plus 15 per week in no time, because we outgear it and the only thing it's worth is an RNG piece of gear once per week.

Then push higher?

I genuinely don't understand. If your only reason to do them is loot, then you shouldn't be championing CMs which rewarded no loot and had no loot incentive at any level. If you're doing them for the challenge -- which is the only reason to do CMs more than once -- then why wouldn't you keep pushing higher?

The biggest weakness of CMs was their lack of repeatability and their lack of challenge scaling. Once you finished gold once there was zero benefit at all to doing them again on the same character. M+ at least has gear (even if the gear stops scaling higher) that could roll as an upgrade every week to make them worth doing repeatedly. M+ at least continues to scale forever so once you master it, you can try for harder difficulties for the goal of being better or even the best if that's something you care about. If that isn't, do a 15 and at least you get gear either way. There was nothing like that for CMs, and CMs only had one flat difficulty level. Once you mastered that and got your gold, there wasn't any way to increase the challenge if that's your bag.

As for CMs, each dungeon had a unique title for being realm first time, ultimately removed but you were rewarded "Mistwalker" at the end of it.

Realm first isn't an incentive to keep doing them to do better. If anything, it's the opposite since once it goes out there's no incentive at all. Once that's done, it's done. If realm first is your goal, your motivation is completely removed at the start of the expac when you're either on the team that gets it, or you're not.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but as a skill based system, it was infinitely better than "whats your RIO and ilvl brah" bullshit.

This doesn't even make sense. At their core, they are the same system. It's disingenuous to argue one is skill based and the other isn't since they are both functionally the same thing (a very hard dungeon where you are racing a timer). There was nothing special about CMs that required skill that isn't the case in M+ or vice versa.

You can definitely argue that the normalisation of CMs made it easier to make teams solely based on skill since you didn't need to make sure the entire group was similar in ilvl before you start. I wouldn't argue that at all. There are pros and cons to scaling you down vs scaling the content up. I personally think the latter is superior for a lot of reasons, but I'm not going to pretend there weren't benefits to the scaling-players-down system. But that doesn't make it inherently more skill based. That just means that in groups where there is a gear disparity you can't hide behind ilvl; but realistically people don't have a gear disparity when they are pushing high keys anyway by the time you get to that point.

And the whole thing with raider.io and whatever is a community issue, nothing to do with the m+ design itself. If the website had existed when CMs were a thing, people probably would have used it for making pug groups then too. Shit like that is a symptom of issues with the community of players itself.

[scvd]

Then push higher?

There is no point.

Realm first TIME, as in, the BEST time - more incentive than best key for zero reward and no one caring about leader boards.

At their core, they're the same system - sure, but one could never be cheesed with gear and borrowed power.

[apustus]

At their core, they're the same system - sure, but one could never be cheesed with gear and borrowed power.

Yeah I hated when CMs were trivialized by the Hellfire Council agi trinket or Vengeance. M+ is much better in this regard.

[lollerlaban]

There is no point.

Realm first TIME, as in, the BEST time - more incentive than best key for zero reward and no one caring about leader boards.

At their core, they're the same system - sure, but one could never be cheesed with gear and borrowed power.

They both could, you know this yes?

[scvd]

They both could, you know this yes?

Cheesing is a bad word on my part, I know how CMs worked though (Mistwalker).

They couldn't be out geared.

[lollerlaban]

Cheesing is a bad word on my part, I know how CMs worked though (Mistwalker).

They couldn't be out geared.

Yes they could. Last tier trinkets and especially gear with multiple socket slots

[Tziva]

Its fine if you dont understand, not everyone has the same preferred playstyle.

I'm saying I don't understand that specific argument because it doesn't make sense.

It's fine if someone prefers CMs but I don't understand how someone can say the reason they prefer CM is because M+ gear doesn't scale up past 15 making it pointless to push higher, when CM didn't reward gear at all and CM didn't even have higher push.

They both could, you know this yes?

Not really, since CM scaled down the players to a normalised gear level. You could cheese it some with gem sockets and certain things that scaled weird, but overall, not really.

[lollerlaban]

I'm saying I don't understand that specific argument because it doesn't make sense.

It's fine if someone prefers CMs but I don't understand how someone can say the reason they prefer CM is because M+ gear doesn't scale up past 15 making it pointless to push higher, when CM didn't reward gear at all and CM didn't even have higher push.


Not really, since CM scaled down the players to a normalised gear level. You could cheese it some with gem sockets and certain things that scaled weird, but overall, not really.

Wait, you're meaning like outgearing it? woah

[Rucati]

Honestly I really like Awakened, the current +10 affix, because it's both positive and negative and allows groups to be creative with how they clear a dungeon. I'd love to see more affixes like this one, compared to something like Bursting which is just a boring and tedious affix, or Fortified which is even more boring and tedious, I want affixes to actually change how you do the dungeon and how you come up with a route through it.

As for purely positive affixes that seems kind of pointless, the idea is that the dungeons get harder because of the affixes, not easier. The reason Awakened works so well is because it makes certain parts easier, namely skipping mobs/groups you don't want to fight, while adding difficulty because they take more time to complete than the average trash pull.

[Tiwack]

Using gems and available items isnt outgearing it if it all scales down to a set itemlevel, try harder.

That's his point though, it all didn't, it wasn't much of a challenge for players with access to such gear.

OT: I suppose the pirate curse in voldun? It has to come with a trade-off or there wouldn't be much point in even adding it.

[Tziva]

Wait, you're meaning like outgearing it? woah

Sockets and the things that scaled weird gave you a very small edge over people that didn't bother farming them, but they didn't trivialise CMs and you could only get so many sockets so you could never "outgear" them. CMs were tuned around the assumption that you'd have at least some sockets already since they weren't uncommon in that era, so the impact of stacking more sockets was probably mathematically minor. I think M+ is better design, but I still think it's disingenuous to act like any of that stuff actually cheesed the dungeons or made them outgearable.

Using gems and available items isnt outgearing it if it all scales down to a set itemlevel, try harder.

Gems didn't scale down, and there were other items that scaled down but their procs were tuned poorly that they were arguably more powerful than they should be (there was also the converse too where some things sucked overly much but obviously those were avoided).

Anyway, sorry for the tangent about CMs in an M+ thread. I am pro-positive-affix if they were done right.

[Depakote]

This is what i wanted but it's not happening cuz blizzard assume Mythic+ make it so popular in esports which is boring to watch. Why the hell did they get rid of challenge mode in first place?

Because the devs are morons.

Also i think it's fair to say that Mythic+ killed the raiding scene for most people.

[badgersmashr]

with the addition of seasonal affixes, there is plenty of room to make even 1 of the affixes a pure positive one, there are many options that would work great such as rewards for interrupts, stuns and offensive spells, blanket buffs, or even going the PoE route, zones that pop up and if your stood in them when they expire you get a buff, there are lots of ways to make things better, maybe make a cdr affix as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly I really like Awakened, the current +10 affix, because it's both positive and negative and allows groups to be creative with how they clear a dungeon. I'd love to see more affixes like this one, compared to something like Bursting which is just a boring and tedious affix, or Fortified which is even more boring and tedious, I want affixes to actually change how you do the dungeon and how you come up with a route through it.

As for purely positive affixes that seems kind of pointless, the idea is that the dungeons get harder because of the affixes, not easier. The reason Awakened works so well is because it makes certain parts easier, namely skipping mobs/groups you don't want to fight, while adding difficulty because they take more time to complete than the average trash pull.

theh dungeon already gets harder by scaling the level. The current system creates a ok we can do m+ this week and a get shit on week, with the latter being the option more often. Having even 1 of the affix levels out of the 4 would still be a net down while still not completely being awful. Mythic + would be much better for players if when we go check affixes the thought is, "what do we get to do this week" vs "whats gonna fuck us in the ass this" week, to roughly quote ya boi Asmongold.

[Rucati]

theh dungeon already gets harder by scaling the level. The current system creates a ok we can do m+ this week and a get shit on week, with the latter being the option more often. Having even 1 of the affix levels out of the 4 would still be a net down while still not completely being awful. Mythic + would be much better for players if when we go check affixes the thought is, "what do we get to do this week" vs "whats gonna fuck us in the ass this" week, to roughly quote ya boi Asmongold.

Honestly don't really agree with this. Some weeks are harder than others, sure, but that wouldn't change just because one affix is positive. If anything it would just be worse. Besides out of the 12 different weekly rotations only like two of them are really bad, the other 10 are mostly fine currently.

M+ is supposed to be challenging content, adding affixes that actively make it easier goes against that completely and would make key level kind of meaningless since the affixes would end up playing a much bigger role than they currently do.

[Deckzor]

i am really a big fan of M+ but there are some things bothering me. While Tyrannical scaled much easier than fort in Season 1 it totally shifted in later Season with its Peak now. At the Moment Tyrannical bosses are so overtuned in high keys in comparison to fortified keys its ridiculous.
Same with some weekly afiix combinations.
In my oppinion its ok to have slightly different difficulties from week to week but it should be much closer than it is now and we even have lots of dead weeks(pushing wise)
For pushing your Score almost all Tyrannical weeks fall off, same with some affix combos for some dungeons in fortified.

So like last week you could run Dungeons 24/7, almost every time of the day there were dozens of keys 20+. This week 0 (and not only cause of the Echo Farming)

Sitenote: i like the idea of a NPC at the start which offers like 1 piece of tool for every player or for hole grp idk. This would help a little bit with the Meta Issues. (Shroud, faster kick, Aoe Stun, whatever)