Cataclysm Garrosh, best warchief?

[Super Dickmann]

Makes about as much sense as the official version of the Horde somehow being a world power.

Pretty much the only race who's population sizes made any sense and were in line with WC3 are the Night Elves in the pre-release novellas (and nowhere else), the dwarves given their total lack of losses and absorption of their co-clans and the Forsaken who can raise more from the humongous bodycount. The powerhouses being a city founded by one small harbor's worth of orcs and a city that got razed by only a portion of the Horde back in the day who's collective population being in a basement is ludicrous, and they're actually the more convincing ones, given that they at least have the fig leaf of other humans/orcs joining up. The Darkspear, tauren, blood elves (and high elves even more so) as well as the draenei all have a massively outsized footprint for what should be their logical amount.

@Syegfryed

While Thrall did use elemental powers no issue from the start in the Wrath Mak'gora and I don't think he was cheating in Nagrand, he did make two major faux pases. THe first is that he only used his powers after Garrosh had kicked his ass in a straight fight and second that he claimed the elementals were his own power and called on them to solve his problem in what's a man on man contest.after previously chewing him out for shit like dark shamanism.

[Soon-TM]

Thrall will always be the best. I still think Vol'jin could have been great but they didn't let him do anything.

Thrall was ok until Cata, when Metzen really ruined him by turning him into Mary Sue #73461084. Cata Garrosh was ok too - a fierce warrior, and unlike Thrall, not afraid of putting the Alliance in its place. He had his flaws though, and they were eventually his downfall - once again, unlike other leaders (*cough* Anduin *cough*) who may have a lot of flaws, which, for some reason, never seem to impede them in the slightest.

[Feanoro]

Pretty much the only race who's population sizes made any sense and were in line with WC3 are the Night Elves in the pre-release novellas (and nowhere else), the dwarves given their total lack of losses and absorption of their co-clans and the Forsaken who can raise more from the humongous bodycount. The powerhouses being a city founded by one small harbor's worth of orcs and a city that got razed by only a portion of the Horde back in the day who's collective population being in a basement is ludicrous, and they're actually the more convincing ones, given that they at least have the fig leaf of other humans/orcs joining up. The Darkspear, tauren, blood elves (and high elves even more so) as well as the draenei all have a massively outsized footprint for what should be their logical amount.

No Blizzard writer including Metzen has ever given a damn about actual world building, not when they can focus on "epic moments".

once again, unlike other leaders (*cough* Anduin *cough*) who may have a lot of flaws, which, for some reason, never seem to impede them in the slightest.

Well duh, Anduin is a non-toxic beta male who respects everyone's ideas and culture, especially the ones that want to kill him!

[Syegfryed]

While Thrall did use elemental powers no issue from the start in the Wrath Mak'gora and I don't think he was cheating in Nagrand, he did make two major faux pases. THe first is that he only used his powers after Garrosh had kicked his ass in a straight fight and second that he claimed the elementals were his own power and called on them to solve his problem in what's a man on man contest.after previously chewing him out for shit like dark shamanism.

in both fights he didn't use the elements, only his own power he got his ass kicked, like in SoO, he could not call the elements but as a shaman he could still send lighting, and he got screwed

Call the elements is a third party, meaning the fight was not 1x1 and not fair, poison and magic like that is the same thing.

[mortephobia]

okay, for those that say using "magic" is not against the makgora ,by the same logic, Guldan didn't cheat against Durotan by using his own fel power. there we go. fixed.

[Razaron]

okay, for those that say using "magic" is not against the makgora ,by the same logic, Guldan didn't cheat against Durotan by using his own fel power. there we go. fixed.

in both fights he didn't use the elements, only his own power he got his ass kicked, like in SoO, he could not call the elements but as a shaman he could still send lighting, and he got screwed

Call the elements is a third party, meaning the fight was not 1x1 and not fair, poison and magic like that is the same thing.

The movie isn’t canon to the game, thank fuck.
There’s been plenty of Mak’gora with magic involved.
It’s likely the rules are made by the combatants.

Just because you personally believe he cheated doesn’t make it true, the evidence from all the Mak’gora we’ve seen suggests it was fine.

Thrall was ok until Cata, when Metzen really ruined him by turning him into Mary Sue #73461084

I’m not exactly a fan of Cata Thrall, but I also wouldn’t call him a Mary Sue either.

[Count Zero]

Didn't one of the time-traveling people say that in most timelines Garrosh was actually, like, the best Warchief the Horde ever had?

[Super Dickmann]

okay, for those that say using "magic" is not against the makgora ,by the same logic, Guldan didn't cheat against Durotan by using his own fel power. there we go. fixed.

The movie isn't canon.

@Syegfryed

I want to agree with you, but can't. Thrall used shamanism in the Wrath Mak'gora as well and we have Garrosh's internal monologue mention how he would've lost on that one and nothing about it breaking the rules. You should be right, because calling upon the elements should break both the one person and one weapon rules, but it doesn't for reasons that are never explained.

[Count Zero]

Oh also:

Go'el is my virtue, but Garrosh is the demon I cling to

I'm just a Hordie fool
Oh baby he' so cruel
But I'm still in love with Garrosh, baby

[Syegfryed]

I want to agree with you, but can't. Thrall used shamanism in the Wrath Mak'gora as well and we have Garrosh's internal monologue mention how he would've lost on that one and nothing about it breaking the rules. You should be right, because calling upon the elements should break both the one person and one weapon rules, but it doesn't for reasons that are never explained.

There is a difference in using his own shaman powers and evoking the elements to aid, empower or do your own deeds.

In SoO Thrall could not invoke the elements but he still was able to cast lighting

also, funny off-thing, in the official forums i get one guy saying it was "likely benedictus who send word to capture thrall in the goblin starting area, not rly the alliance, and its was likely, all the twilight hammer and Garrosh fault for not de-escalating the war

- - - Updated - - -

The movie isn’t canon to the game, thank fuck.

i didn't said it was

There’s been plenty of Mak’gora with magic involved.

with their own magic, not third party

and again, completely nonsensical allow magic and not poison.

Just because you personally believe he cheated doesn’t make it true, the evidence from all the Mak’gora we’ve seen suggests it was fine.

the evidence also suggest that he is a cheater, but blizzard can't let Green Jesus come out like that, better change everything else, make not canon, what it takes

[Razaron]

i didn't said it was

If you read my post you'd see I was replying to not just you. I didn't say you did say that.

with their own magic, not third party

and again, completely nonsensical allow magic and not poison.

I like how you ignored that I said it's likely combatants make their own rules up, this is the logical assumption, why? Because of the vast amount of different rules that have taken place. The poison you're talking about was in the Cairne versus Garrosh Mak'gora, where it was very traditional, no armour, one weapon, etc etc. So of course poison in a duel between two warriors was going to be seen differently. Anyway didn't they retcon that and make out that Garrosh knew about it?

the evidence also suggest that he is a cheater, but blizzard can't let Green Jesus come out like that, better change everything else, make not canon, what it takes

No the evidence is the vast amount of Mak'gora we know about, in those Mak'gora magic was allowed. But for your arguement about a third party, I never saw Garrosh complain pre-WotLK till his death when Thrall was throwing him about with lightning and air. So that arguement specifically about shamanism falls flat.

[Lupinemancer]

Garrosh = Worst Warchief ever. That's just a fact.

[Super Dickmann]

There is a difference in using his own shaman powers and evoking the elements to aid, empower or do your own deeds.

In SoO Thrall could not invoke the elements but he still was able to cast lighting

also, funny off-thing, in the official forums i get one guy saying it was "likely benedictus who send word to capture thrall in the goblin starting area, not rly the alliance, and its was likely, all the twilight hammer and Garrosh fault for not de-escalating the war

Despite introducing it (unless I'm forgetting something) I do think Thrall using shamanism in Mak'gora fucked with the concept. Back in the day, shamans were actual shamans, spiritual leaders. It's why I can't buy into your argument - none of a shaman's abilities are strictly his own, it's from his call to the elements. Hence why after Garrosh had fucked with them under Org Thrall could only shoot some lightning before he gets pimpslapped with Gorehowl. But precisely because they aren't his own and because if shaman powers were inherent no non-shaman would ever be chieftain of a clan, it should be more like in the movie where it's just a pure martial contest. Or as described - one weapon, no armor. Allowing magic undermines the orcs conceptually the more I think about it.

[Syegfryed]

If you read my post you'd see I was replying to not just you. I didn't say you did say that.

you quoted me, and said right next my comment, so, it look very likely it was to me

I like how you ignored that I said it's likely combatants make their own rules up, this is the logical assumption, why? Because of the vast amount of different rules that have taken place. The poison you're talking about was in the Cairne versus Garrosh Mak'gora, where it was very traditional, no armour, one weapon, etc etc. So of course poison in a duel between two warriors was going to be seen differently.

so, the difference here is that they didn't set up the poison in the begning?

And you are telling me that Garrosh and Thrall, just meet up to discuss the rules and thrall just throw out he would use third party powers seeking the aid of the elements, and Garrosh would be totally fine with that?

Sounds a bit absurd

Anyway didn't they retcon that and make out that Garrosh knew about it?

No, not even on chronicles

No the evidence is the vast amount of Mak'gora we know about, in those Mak'gora magic was allowed. But for your arguement about a third party, I never saw Garrosh complain pre-WotLK till his death when Thrall was throwing him about with lightning and air. So that arguement specifically about shamanism falls flat.

shaman own powers =/= shaman seeking aid and the elements as a third party coming into play.

His fight in SoO also had magic without elements, the point was not using magic, even when magic before was not ok against non-magic users, they literally had to retcon that so Thrall didn't come off as a cheater(when the story of his redemption would be way better) sure the move isn't canon, but pretty much showed orcs reactions about a fucked up mak'gora

But again, the point is not even using magic alone, but being powered by some third party and using this third party to win, when the mak'gora is a 1x1 fight of equals

- - - Updated - - -

Despite introducing it (unless I'm forgetting something) I do think Thrall using shamanism in Mak'gora fucked with the concept. Back in the day, shamans were actual shamans, spiritual leaders. It's why I can't buy into your argument - none of a shaman's abilities are strictly his own, it's from his call to the elements. Hence why after Garrosh had fucked with them under Org Thrall could only shoot some lightning before he gets pimpslapped with Gorehowl. But precisely because they aren't his own and because if shaman powers were inherent no non-shaman would ever be chieftain of a clan, it should be more like in the movie where it's just a pure martial contest. Or as described - one weapon, no armor. Allowing magic undermines the orcs conceptually the more I think about it.

I think there is his own powers, a Shaman use spirit, his own spirit and his own mana, they only call the elements to do big things, and that is where stop being just a 1x1 but a 1x4

in the very SoO fight thrall tried to call the elements to his aid, but they didn't come, so he fought with is own shaman powers, and is quite likely their first fight, both he only used lighting.

allowing magic is fine as long both used magic, a mak'gora should be a fight of equals, in the sense of both having the same weapons/tools, a fair fight, that was in the raw rules of the mak'gora, only one weapon each and if it falls you use your fists, then it got adapted with time, if both choose a weapon and magic, sure go for it, but when one use just a weapon and the other use a weapon, magic and the elements aid, thats fucked up, same as using poison and other thing to get unfair advantage.

And i think it was like that, but they had to change so Green Jesus don't come up as a sinner

[korijenkins]

Nope. He was a terrible warchief (as he himself predicted) and a terrible person.

Also he was such a virgin that the conflict he started wasn't even named, it literally doesn't have a name, it's not Fourth War because that's BfA. Peak clownery.

I've been under the impression that every Alliance/Horde conflict since Wrath has been part of the Fourth War.

[Aucald]

Despite introducing it (unless I'm forgetting something) I do think Thrall using shamanism in Mak'gora fucked with the concept. Back in the day, shamans were actual shamans, spiritual leaders. It's why I can't buy into your argument - none of a shaman's abilities are strictly his own, it's from his call to the elements. Hence why after Garrosh had fucked with them under Org Thrall could only shoot some lightning before he gets pimpslapped with Gorehowl. But precisely because they aren't his own and because if shaman powers were inherent no non-shaman would ever be chieftain of a clan, it should be more like in the movie where it's just a pure martial contest. Or as described - one weapon, no armor. Allowing magic undermines the orcs conceptually the more I think about it.

He didn't get "pimpslapped" with Gorehowl - it was Xal'atoh, the Old God-empowered weapon gifted to Garrosh by his then benefactor Y'Shaarj. Garrosh left Gorehowl planted in the ground back at the Sha of Pride's room.

[Super Dickmann]

He didn't get "pimpslapped" with Gorehowl - it was Xal'atoh, the Old God-empowered weapon gifted to Garrosh by his then benefactor Y'Shaarj. Garrosh left Gorehowl planted in the ground back at the Sha of Pride's room.

Yeah, my bad, cheers for the correction. You catch my drift though - Thrall was weakened at the time and we saw as much. He doesn't have any inherent lightning powers because that's not how shamans work, though the spirit idea linked below has promise and if it has textual backing I'd be all over it to explain it to myself. It's because the elements were weakened that he couldn't do the shit we see him do elsewhere.

@Syegfryed

I do like this way of explaining it. I.e, that the shaman using his powers is fine provided they come from his inherent spirit. But the way I get powers is that shamans don't have inherent powers, so much as that the elements loan them out an amount they passively have. So they don't have to ask for help every time they throw a fireball, but if it's something more major there's more prep involved or they have to force it through dark shamanism of either the taunka or void type.

The Doylist reason is likely that they hadn't decided what the Mak'gora rules were back in Wrath and it was left for Golden to flesh them out and make them what is now the baseline in Shattering, hence why they're both in full armor and going at it all out instead of following the ritual rules.

[Aucald]

Yeah, my bad, cheers for the correction. You catch my drift though - Thrall was weakened at the time and we saw as much. He doesn't have any inherent lightning powers because that's not how shamans work, though the spirit idea linked below has promise and if it has textual backing I'd be all over it to explain it to myself. It's because the elements were weakened that he couldn't do the shit we see him do elsewhere.

I was saying that Garrosh prevailed in part due to the powerful weapon gifted to him by Y'Shaarj. While Thrall wouldn't have had access to the majority of his Shamanic powers due to Garrosh's torture of the Elements for miles around Orgrimmar, he still had his martial training to fall back on from being a peerless gladiator under Blackmoore. Garrosh, however, was empowered by the Heart of Y'Shaarj and bearing a weapon made of Old God essence.

I also think some of a Shaman's abilities are more baseline and don't require a Call - this includes healing, which was still available to the Shaman of Draenor despite the ban of the Elements, and probably some minor offense abilities (perhaps like Lightning Bolt or Flame Shock). The higher order and more powerful abilities would be offline, though; and of course anything requiring an active Call would be off-limits to Thrall during the duel.

[Super Dickmann]

I was saying that Garrosh prevailed in part due to the powerful weapon gifted to him by Y'Shaarj. While Thrall wouldn't have had access to the majority of his Shamanic powers due to Garrosh's torture of the Elements for miles around Orgrimmar, he still had his martial training to fall back on from being a peerless gladiator under Blackmoore. Garrosh, however, was empowered by the Heart of Y'Shaarj and bearing a weapon made of Old God essence.

I also think some of a Shaman's abilities are more baseline and don't require a Call - this includes healing, which was still available to the Shaman of Draenor despite the ban of the Elements, and probably some minor offense abilities (perhaps like Lightning Bolt or Flame Shock). The higher order and more powerful abilities would be offline, though; and of course anything requiring an active Call would be off-limits to Thrall during the duel.

As we see later, if we put the two head to head and it's just martial skill, Garrosh wins. Though whether that'd still apply if it was Garrosh vs. Thrall from before he committed himself to being a magic-oriented shaman full time is a different question. I'd lean towards yes, but you could go either way, Thrall did have a more martial upbringing. Garrosh having both Y'shaarj's powers and having pre-weakened Thrall in this case is why he beats him so easily though. Though given Thrall is up and running fine in the cinematic later it's not like it was much of a fight, he just got cleared so we could take a shot at the boss and keep him from kill-stealing.

My impression is that once the Elements stopped listening to the orcs, they couldn't use their shaman powers on anything but a basic level. What you're saying does gel with what I'm getting at in the previous post as well. I still don't entirely like it, since non-taunka or dark shaman powers always involve some element (harhar) of involvement by the elements. It's just that these lesser powers are more or less always available to the shaman. That still doesn't make the shaman the origin point of the spells though, so to speak. That and in a broader cultural sense the shaman is treated as a conduit through which the elements act. While canon, as I defended in my chat with Syegfryed, I still find it a bit iffy to have shamanic powers be able to be used to circumvent the one weapon rule. You'd think we'd see more shamans as chieftains, but clans like the Warsongs or Blackrock are still ultimately lead by powerful warriors, whereas it's the less martial clans that have shamans as leaders.

[Soon-TM]

I've been under the impression that every Alliance/Horde conflict since Wrath has been part of the Fourth War.

It has, at least technically. The war that Varian declared back in WotLK is still going on, since both armistices (the one at the end of MoP and the current one) are, well... armistices; the war isn't over, but momentarily suspended.