Cataclysm Garrosh, best warchief?

[Aucald]

As we see later, if we put the two head to head and it's just martial skill, Garrosh wins. Though whether that'd still apply if it was Garrosh vs. Thrall from before he committed himself to being a magic-oriented shaman full time is a different question. I'd lean towards yes, but you could go either way, Thrall did have a more martial upbringing. Garrosh having both Y'shaarj's powers and having pre-weakened Thrall in this case is why he beats him so easily though. Though given Thrall is up and running fine in the cinematic later it's not like it was much of a fight, he just got cleared so we could take a shot at the boss and keep him from kill-stealing.

My impression is that once the Elements stopped listening to the orcs, they couldn't use their shaman powers on anything but a basic level. What you're saying does gel with what I'm getting at in the previous post as well. I still don't entirely like it, since non-taunka or dark shaman powers always involve some element (harhar) of involvement by the elements. It's just that these lesser powers are more or less always available to the shaman. That still doesn't make the shaman the origin point of the spells though, so to speak. That and in a broader cultural sense the shaman is treated as a conduit through which the elements act. While canon, as I defended in my chat with Syegfryed, I still find it a bit iffy to have shamanic powers be able to be used to circumvent the one weapon rule. You'd think we'd see more shamans as chieftains, but clans like the Warsongs or Blackrock are still ultimately lead by powerful warriors, whereas it's the less martial clans that have shamans as leaders.

If you're referring to their later duel on Draenor, I don't really think Garrosh won that, per se - sure he was able to knock Thrall down and stun him but he did so at the cost of his weapon and Thrall wasn't knocked out or otherwise incapacitated either. If Thrall hadn't opted to use his powers to pop Garrosh into the air then crush him with a hand of stone (followed by a lightning lobotomy) it's likely the two could've kept scrapping for some time. Not to mention that Garrosh never actually tags Thrall with Gorehowl at all in that duel, where he gets popped by the Doomhammer several times. Blow for blow I'd say Thrall was winning, and he's up on his feet after being body-slammed by Garrosh easily enough. It's actually not that great a showing for Garrosh when you actually watch the choreography of the fight, though I would say he's got a slight advantage before Thrall claps back with his Shamanism.

Shaman are also imbued with Elemental powers as part of their becoming Shaman, as well; if only by dint of their being part of the natural world themselves and able to tap into that connection to fuel their own basic powers. Not unlike Mages and their use of the Arcane, being able to use their own internal essence to cast spells (such as what Medivh does to Arcanagos). I also don't think the Mak'gora has had and fast rules the way most claim - it's not a codified ritual, but rather a term that makes conflict or combat sacrosanct. Orcs view any kind of personal duel through the cultural lens of the Mak'gora, such as how Saurfang views the fight between Sylvanas and Malfurion despite the fact that neither of the two are Orcs or share in his beliefs i.e. the Mak'gora. Malfurion is openly contemptuous of the idea, such as when Saurfang declares it as a stalling tactic in "A Good War." The only true rules for Mak'gora are those the combatants declare before fighting, such as the Mak'gora between Cairne and Garrosh, which was more elaborate and strict as it was a duel for the very leadership of the Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

If you're referring to their later duel on Draenor, I don't really think Garrosh won that, per se - sure he was able to knock Thrall down and stun him but he did so at the cost of his weapon and Thrall wasn't knocked out or otherwise incapacitated either. If Thrall hadn't opted to use his powers to pop Garrosh into the air then crush him with a hand of stone (followed by a lightning lobotomy) it's likely the two could've kept scrapping for some time. Not to mention that Garrosh never actually tags Thrall with Gorehowl at all in that duel, where he gets popped by the Doomhammer several times. Blow for blow I'd say Thrall was winning, and he's up on his feet after being body-slammed by Garrosh easily enough. It's actually not that great a showing for Garrosh when you actually watch the choreography of the fight, though I would say he's got a slight advantage before Thrall claps back with his Shamanism.

Garrosh ditches Gorehowl as part of a feint that ends up with him physically overpowering Thrall, which has him resort to shamanism, whereas when Thrall smacks him several times with a hammer, Garrosh carries on without too much issue. It's Garrosh throwing him that does him in, since while he's on top of Thrall he's got momentum on his side. The way the fight is framed it's a back and forth where Thrall has the early lead martially, then loses it only to use his shamanism and come out and Thrall having his beads fly off and have his face beaten is a lot more visceral than the hammer hits. Mind, it's sketchy either way since the models aren't really made to display such things. Garrosh is an orc's orc to be sure, but anyone getting hit a few times in the face with a hammer probably wouldn't be in a state to be talking shit right after.

Shaman are also imbued with Elemental powers as part of their becoming Shaman, as well; if only by dint of their being part of the natural world themselves and able to tap into that connection to fuel their own basic powers. Not unlike Mages and their use of the Arcane, being able to use their own internal essence to cast spells (such as what Medivh does to Arcanagos). I also don't think the Mak'gora has had and fast rules the way most claim - it's not a codified ritual, but rather a term that makes conflict or combat sacrosanct. Orcs view any kind of personal duel through the cultural lens of the Mak'gora, such as how Saurfang views the fight between Sylvanas and Malfurion despite the fact that neither of the two are Orcs or share in his beliefs i.e. the Mak'gora. Malfurion is openly contemptuous of the idea, such as when Saurfang declares it as a stalling tactic in "A Good War." The only true rules for Mak'gora are those the combatants declare before fighting, such as the Mak'gora between Cairne and Garrosh, which was more elaborate and strict as it was a duel for the very leadership of the Horde.

Yeah, I can get behind this as an overall explanation. Especially since at least for orcs, making that connection and the consequences of failing it are shown pretty well when it comes to the Pale, so some baseline shamanic ability unless the elements are actively shunning you is logical and fits with the theory up top about how aside from the elements one can use their own spirit to do this. I do disagree on your take when it comes to Mak'gora though - it is heavily ritualized and a big deal. The more basic martial contest is Mak'rogahn. It's not always done by traditional rules the way Garrosh and Cairne do it, but that those are the traditional rules does allude to the shaman having a more supportive role as the one who blesses the weapon rather than a participant. It's why I'm not so much disputing whether you can use magic and wear armor - you pretty obviously can, but how well that gels with what we're shown of orcish culture and the role of the shaman and how despite shamans having a pretty obvious lead over warriors we don't really see all that many shamans in charge except for Ner'zhul, who isn't exactly using his powers to wreck fools.

Off-topic, Horde badly needs some actual big-name shamans. We're the shaman faction and yet we have no notable shamans who ever do anything and even the leaders of races with other gimmicks default to warriors. The biggest currently active Horde shaman is Rehgar and he's a complete non-entity.

[Talrath]

Garrosh was the best horde warchief that could make the war between Alliance vs horde still going on a rational level. They could have written him so much better but killed him so fast, only Voljin went out faster. This Sylvanis fetish the writers have is to me very odd, they suddenly shoved her into our faces like they were saying: look look!!!

[Soon-TM]

Garrosh was the best horde warchief that could make the war between Alliance vs horde still going on a rational level. They could have written him so much better but killed him so fast, only Voljin went out faster. This Sylvanis fetish the writers have is to me very odd, they suddenly shoved her into our faces like they were saying: look look!!!

If anything, this Sylvanas fetish has all the flaws of Garrosh (and a few others on top), and none of his qualities.

[sam86]

Yes he is the best, as someone who voted for Abesik Kampfire i was surprised with how amazing Garrosh was, yes even his exile of trolls he had a very good reason for it
And it made his MoP nazi era even more spiteful

[Ielenia]

Exactly, boring, bland, uninteresting

He did nothing because he did not get any opportunity to do anything, as the expansion immediately after his "coronation" was an one that sidelined all the faction leaders (Varian, for example, did as much as Vol'jin in that expansion), and the very expansion AFTER that one was the one in which he died.

[Zuben]

Garrosh wasn't too bad during Cataclysm and definitely a breath of fresh air after years of Thrall's inaction.

[Kyphael]

He was all right. For all the things he had going for him, being an aggressor which in a game about Red vs. Blue, keeps things interesting, putting Orcs first, and not wanting relations with the Alliance, he really was written like a pussy by the end. He kept blaming all of his actions that his fans praise on Thrall. If you're going to be renowned as a powerful Warchief who doesn't take shit, own up to it until the end and don't point the finger at the Warchief before you for your actions. That ultimately ruined his character for me.

Garrosh was a relic from the old Warchiefs of Draenor that would have never worked in modern day Azeroth, because when you're part of the Horde, and you need cooperation from the Tauren, and the Trolls, and the Blood Elves, don't tread on them, because they're going to steamroll over you, and they did, literally, in Siege of Orgrimmar.

[THEORACLE64]

He wants to paint Pandaria red for the sake of expansionism and raw material
Red is a nice colour
He wears the tusks of his fathers achievement
He also has Gorehowl which has a bit of history behind it
Kickass tattoos
Miss matched boots, doesn't care at all
WWE champion belt
Warmongering hothead
Really wants that night elven wood
Airship gets boarded by twilight cult and twilight drakes, jumps like 60 feet from his safe airship to kill the drakes anyway
Declares war on the alliance while a big mean dragon is trying to end the world
Nukes Theramore and kills Rhonin which is pretty based
Very honourable, when he needs to
Big guy
Bald


It's a shame that he went to become a raidboss after only 2 expansions, could have stuck around for a bit longer, going to Draenor for a iron horde crusade against demons, should have stolen that draenei naaru tech for spacefaring ships to start a intergalactical pogrom against demons, lopping the head of Gul'dan where he stood when offering Mannaroth bathwater to the chieftains. Then taking over Azeroth with the INDUSTRIALIZED MIGHT of a UNITED DRAENOR, fucking guns, metal mech scorpions, rolling nukes and effectively infinite manpower thanks to how fast orcs mature and zug zug.


Garrosh, a warchief and villain WE can believe in.

Another one of these shitty Garrosh threads? Nope.

[Kufell]

Garrosh was a good Orc Warchief, but not a good one for the modern Horde, he was too headstrong for his own good and constantly refused to listen, which is why his advisors turned on him so soon, for the blatant disrespect he showed. He made plenty of mistakes over the course of his leading the Horde's military might, which this reddit post sums up nicely.

I consider him to be the worst leader of the modern Horde as even though we never got to see Vol'jin do anything in-game, the novels have stated he ran the Horde like a well oiled machine, even impressing Sylvanas.

[Zandalariprelate]

No he was hot head from the start and that only made him earn the distrust among his fellow leaders which is a big failure for someone at charge of a coalition of many people

[Syegfryed]

He did nothing because he did not get any opportunity to do anything

i know that

but he did nothing anyway, blizzrad fault but is what we have, a boring, bland and uninteresting leadership, who could be good, but wasn't

- - - Updated - - -

I do like this way of explaining it. I.e, that the shaman using his powers is fine provided they come from his inherent spirit. But the way I get powers is that shamans don't have inherent powers, so much as that the elements loan them out an amount they passively have. So they don't have to ask for help every time they throw a fireball, but if it's something more major there's more prep involved or they have to force it through dark shamanism of either the taunka or void type.

Pretty sure after their initiation and "pact" with the elements they have an innate power on their own, see his fight with Garrosh when there was no elements, he still used magic, even after the elements abandoned him in Legion he still used magic, - his own power - instead of getting into a third part

the point still fall down of ho in wod it was not a 1x1 fight anymore

The Doylist reason is likely that they hadn't decided what the Mak'gora rules were back in Wrath and it was left for Golden to flesh them out and make them what is now the baseline in Shattering, hence why they're both in full armor and going at it all out instead of following the ritual rules.

i think they explained that that the proper ritual is only done when there is time, and later things were adapted to the place/individuals

[Minikin]

*gets killed by L90 lfr heroes in his own capital*

Yes, a true warchief.

and forever repeatable till the day this game dies.

a warchief on farm, in the horde capital city.

forever.

if that isnt a slap across the face, i dont know what is.

[Ielenia]

i know that

but he did nothing anyway, blizzrad fault but is what we have, a boring, bland and uninteresting leadership, who could be good, but wasn't

And I'm saying that you can't say his leadership was "boring, bland and uninteresting" when the guy simply didn't get a chance to do anything.

By saying "boring, bland and uninteresting", it heavily implies that Vol'jin had plenty of opportunities to do something, but instead simply did nothing of value.

[Minikin]

omg this is amazing.

WHEN WARCHIEF GARROSH BUILT AHN QIRAJ
HE BEAT HURURAN

you know hes a big deal then lawl.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh was a good Orc Warchief, but not a good one for the modern Horde, he was too headstrong for his own good and constantly refused to listen, which is why his advisors turned on him so soon, for the blatant disrespect he showed. He made plenty of mistakes over the course of his leading the Horde's military might, which this reddit post sums up nicely.

I consider him to be the worst leader of the modern Horde as even though we never got to see Vol'jin do anything in-game, the novels have stated he ran the Horde like a well oiled machine, even impressing Sylvanas.

the problem is at that time the horde were a bunch of pacifists without balls despite the alliance ragging war against then, they prefer to stay in a state of skirmishes and just defend whatever attacks the alliance launched instead of fighting back, a passive stance, and Garrosh wanted to win the war and eradicate the enemy who was attacking then, an aggressive stance, so things clashed

What is amusing is how they write the horde before, giving two shits about stay unite in the war, lets fight for Grrosh", but now we got "lets unite in the war, fight for sylvanas LUL"

And the worst leader of modern horde will be Sylvanas, for obvious reasons, then vol'jin, because he did nothing at all, and thrall because trough vanilla-wtlk he was bare acceptable

[Maljinwo]

Jorin Deadeye is the true leader orcs need

[Syegfryed]

And I'm saying that you can't say his leadership was "boring, bland and uninteresting" when the guy simply didn't get a chance to do anything.

i mean, i sure can, he didn't, and is what we have to compare

nothing = boring

By saying "boring, bland and uninteresting", it heavily implies that Vol'jin had plenty of opportunities to do something

it don't, it heavily imply the reality of the predicament

Vol'jin did nothing, and therefore it was boring, not his fault, but is what we have.

[Ielenia]

[QUOTE=Syegfryed;52368137]i mean, i sure can, he didn't, and is what we have to compare

nothing = boring


it don't, it heavily imply the reality of the predicament

Vol'jin did nothing, and therefore it was boring, not his fault, but is what we have.

Saying he "did nothing, and therefore it was boring" heavily implies he had the opportunity, or opportunities, but did nothing insterd.

[javierdsv]

He wanted War, just like Sylvanas... That makes them good Warchiefs right?