Why is it a bad thing that the Blood Knights got redeemed?

[Sesethi]

The light will stand with whoever has a strong belief their cause is righteous and has not if any flick of a doubt, which is why you see the Scarlet Crusade using it even if they are purging Lordaeron of any life form their deem corrupted or even Yrel with her holy Crusade in the alternate Draenor.

Liadrin and the blood knights can simply have sided with Sylvanas and in their mind believe is the right choice as for them this will guarantee the safety of the blood elf population and Azeroth overall.

Magatha siding with the shamans and becoming a follower pisses me way more than the paladin debacle

[Kyphael]

I thought they did it during tbc because it was a source of magic to feed from, and later after they were cured of the magic hunger they realized they didnt need to force the light but instead do like the other paladins and serve it.

That's right on the nose. Criticisms of the obvious can be chalked up to fans expecting depth in the writing of blood elf lore, or lore in general. Blizzard focuses on racial lore episodically. Blood Knights becoming like Alliance Paladins should have been expected as what made them distinct to begin with is a burden on the writing team who can obviously just focus on a number of plots at once. The following expansion was to be focused on The Lich King with sub-plots including Malygos, and Yogg-saron. For Blood Knights to continue sucking the light out of a captured Naaru's ass like it's commonplace even on Azeroth would have been distracting.

"Never mind us continuing our perversions, look over there at the Lich King and all the Old God tentacles!"

[Kaleredar]

Old blood elves were a scholarly race that used all kinds of magic without fearing of being "evil". Now Grand Magister acts like Malfurion and prefers banishing scientists instead of increasing his control over theur research. Also, if Light is a cosmic force, why can't we use it without faith, just like Arcane or Fel?

I dunno, ask the light that question.

Exactly. This desire should be fulfilled. New paladins are boring and don't matter in the story anyway.

it's just chintzy, pointless edginess at that point.

Where do the dark, edgy blood elf paladins fit into greater paladin lore... at all?

Would they be welcomed in the argent dawn? The argent crusade? The paladin order hall?

I know blizzard likes giving the horde a pass vis-a-vis terrible, hypocritical atrocities they commit and the willingness of neutral factions to just not care, but... that'd be a pretty big affront to what the other Paladin races... human, dwarf, draenei, tauren... and indeed now Zandalari and lightforged... stand for.

And while I'm sure there's some appeal to "HAH! We're the blood elves and we're so powerful at this feeble light magic that you HAVE to let us sit at the adults table!" again... that just starts to come off as... really pretentious.

They were punished. They lost everything cool about them: atheism, cult of science, curiosity, unique spells, Kael'thas, addiction...

The horde has had quite enough teenage-level angst in Sylvanas, thank you very much.

Good god if we had to put up with blood elves acting all high and mighty in woke righteousness too? Ugh.

Void elves are what blood elves should be.

And void elves exist to placate people because the horde coopted high elves so they could get a prettyboy horde race.


My how we've come full circle.

[Super Dickmann]

It's just chintzy, pointless edginess at that point.

Where do the dark, edgy blood elf paladins fit into greater paladin lore... at all?

Would they be welcomed in the argent dawn? The argent crusade? The paladin order hall?

I know blizzard likes giving the horde a pass vis-a-vis terrible, hypocritical atrocities they commit and the willingness of neutral factions to just not care, but... that'd be a pretty big affront to what the other Paladin races... human, dwarf, draenei, tauren... and indeed now Zandalari and lightforged... stand for.

And while I'm sure there's some appeal to "HAH! We're the blood elves and we're so powerful at this feeble light magic that you HAVE to let us sit at the adults table!" again... that just starts to come off as... really pretentious.

Sunwalkers aren't even paladins, they're solar druids in plate. And don't get me started on the Zandalari prelates who are loa priests who are enforcers for the royal line and the caste system thereof. Hell, back in the day Uther banished Tirion for considering the idea of orcs not being bad and the dwarves had their imperial mandate. You want to know how a draenei vindicator would deal with a Blood Knight pulling out his copy of the Light Delusion? Check Bloodmyst and what happens to Matis the Cruel, he'd waste the motherfucker for talking shit. All of these parties would have reason to conflict with one another and when they do come together you'd have actual meaningful interaction considering their similarities and differences rather than being a collection of palette swaps.

Overall class lore that trumps racial class lore has done nothing but water down both to the benefit of no one, and papering over conflict by making everyone the same has done nothing but make that conflict completely inane when it does inevitably perk up because it's a fundamental part of the game. Hence how Liadrin is simultaneously dull as dishwater and involved in actions that make zero sense for what little character she has.

[Trumpcat]

Because like the rest of the Horde they are hypocrites completely incapable of taking responsibility for their actions. So if they did "redeem" at one point, they have so much innocent blood on their hands afterwards that their "Blood Knight" comic title is rather fitting, just not in the way someone imagined it originally.

[Raetary]

Also, if Light is a cosmic force, why can't we use it without faith, just like Arcane or Fel?

You can.
Benedictus gave up his faith yet still controlled the light with just his willpower.


OT: Because it made them boring.

[matrix123mko]

No they weren't!? Those happened before they turned the Naruu to a light battery, not after, also i'm not sure if u talking about lore or mocking blizz ruining game in general in some aspects?

I am pretty sure blood elves got a real punishment from Velen. They are completely dependent on well of Light that is slowly lightforging them. Over several decades(10 minutes for an elf) they will pretty much lose free will.

- - - Updated - - -

You can.
Benedictus gave up his faith yet still controlled the light with just his willpower.

I know that. I am asking more why don't blood elves do that.

- - - Updated - - -

Would they be welcomed in the argent dawn? The argent crusade? The paladin order hall?

Argent everything just needed help killing the Lich King. They worked with death knights and everyone so that doesn't matter. As for paladin order hall, it was a dumb idea to make it 100% human themed. Instead of Silver Hand they could have made a new order, which would simply be an agreement between "paladins" of all races that they will fight the Legion together, while sharing their knowledge to eachother. Sunwalkers don't worship the Light anyway.

[Kaleredar]

Argent everything just needed help killing the Lich King. They worked with death knights and everyone so that doesn't matter.

The Death Knights don't actively exploit the light for their own gains, nor did they choose to be Death knights. They fight with the powers, unholy as they may be, that they were infused with against their will.

That stands in pretty stark contrast to the blood elves who, in your narrative, would have continued abusing the light and desecrating what the other paladin orders stood for simply because they could.

As for paladin order hall, it was a dumb idea to make it 100% human themed. Instead of Silver Hand they could have made a new order, which would simply be an agreement between "paladins" of all races that they will fight the Legion together, while sharing their knowledge to eachother. Sunwalkers don't worship the Light anyway.

But why even let the "edgelord" blood elf paladins in at that point? Clearly, they have no affinity for the light, and that's what the other Paladins are about.

It'd literally be the same as you pitching the Cenarion circle or the druid order hall letting in a group of druids that revile nature and actively work to destroy it but are let in on a technicality because they can turn into animals by merit of having an ancient tied up somewhere whom they force to give them power.

An interesting angle? For a villainous faction, maybe. But certainly not one that's going to "play along with others" in the lore. Which, when you find yourself staring down the barrel of world-ending villain after world-ending villain, becomes somewhat necessary.

And... once the Blood Elves were freed of their power corruption, why NOT just have them transition into being more conventional paladins? There's really no lore reason for them not to. Obviously blood elves have no actual problem "believing" in the light. High Elves didn't have an issue. There are certainly blood elf priests. Having them transition to more conventional light worship to obtain their powers removes that sticking point of things like "why the hell would the Draenei ever team up with the Blood Elves, who still have a naaru chained up in a basement" that would become quite the plot hole in lore over time. And again, Blizzard obviously isn't too terribly worried about these when it comes to the horde, but... the fewer of them there are, the better.


As far a Sunwalkers, they worship the light, just in it being... bequeathed, I guess... upon them by their sun god An'she.

[Budong]

When Blood Knights were first introduced, I was actually taking a break from WoW and hadn't gotten into TBC yet. I got into beta and after walking around Silvermoon and seeing the BE lore and how they were trying to outwardly appear like everything is normal (when it wasn't) I became so intrigued I decided to rejoin WoW and go on this journey with them.

The Blood Knights in particular were compelling because they were paladins in name but derived their powers from a source quite different. The general feeling was when you made a BE paladin you were beginning this journey that would finally allow them to find their way in the world. The problem is that when they did find their way they were no longer interesting. The very things that made them intriguing in the first place was the Sith like approach to power. You don't serve it, it serves you. It's also what has always made Sith far more interesting to me than Jedi. I believe the comparison of Jedi/Paladin, Sith/Blood Knight is pretty accurate.

Ultimately I still play my paladin as a Blood Knight. His transmog is about as close as is currently possible in game with tabard and shield and black/red armor. He does not serve the light but uses it's power as his own. He bends it to his will because a Blood Elf is a slave to no one. It's this kind of distinction that I feel is lacking in the game. Some in this thread would have all classes be homogenized clones. This is boring and leads to creative stagnation. I say each race should have it's own class flavor like the Priests in the early game. Don't take this uniqueness away simply because you want all classes to fit within a little box.

[matrix123mko]

The Death Knights don't actively exploit the light for their own gains, nor did they choose to be Death knights. They fight with the powers, unholy as they may be, that they were infused with against their will.

Are you aware that death knights have eternal desire of causing pain and suffering?

That stands in pretty stark contrast to the blood elves who, in your narrative, would have continued abusing the light and desecrating what the other paladin orders stood for simply because they could.

Because it is more efficient and reliable than spending hours praying. Anyway, now they have a giant pool of light that makes their prayers obsolete, as they can take power from it.

But why even let the "edgelord" blood elf paladins in at that point? Clearly, they have no affinity for the light, and that's what the other Paladins are about.

They are likely better at fighting demons, as they spent some time researching them.

It'd literally be the same as you pitching the Cenarion circle or the druid order hall letting in a group of druids that revile nature and actively work to destroy it but are let in on a technicality because they can turn into animals by merit of having an ancient tied up somewhere whom they force to give them power.

I doubt that priests of Gonk would care about someone else's ancient.

An interesting angle? For a villainous faction, maybe. But certainly not one that's going to "play along with others" in the lore. Which, when you find yourself staring down the barrel of world-ending villain after world-ending villain, becomes somewhat necessary.

If Alliance paladins don't want to work together with blood elves, it is their problem.

And... once the Blood Elves were freed of their power corruption, why NOT just have them transition into being more conventional paladins?

Because there is no reason for them to become ones. They can use Light at will because of restored Sunwell. Do you pray to Zeus because you have electricity in your house?

There's really no lore reason for them not to. Obviously blood elves have no actual problem "believing" in the light. High Elves didn't have an issue. There are certainly blood elf priests. Haviike "why the hell would the Draenei ever team up with the Blood Elves, who still have a naarng them transition to more conventional light worship to obtain their powers removes that sticking point of things lu chained up in a basement" that would become quite the plot hole in lore over time. And again, Blizzard obviously isn't too terribly worried about these when it comes to the horde, but... the fewer of them there are, the better.

Their priests were often refered to as mage-priests. They had arcane sancta. I don't think it is outside of realm of possibility to not worship the Light. Also, what is the point of worship, if your "gods" can be tied up and tortured so easily. They can aswell worship dragons or titan keepers.

As far a Sunwalkers, they worship the light, just in it being... bequeathed, I guess... upon them by their sun god An'she.

They do not revere naaru as their gods.

[mysticx]

The thing with Blood Knights is that they don't have to be devout in order to wield the Light because of their connection to the Sunwell. That they are portrayed as such regardless feels stupid as it's essentially no different to Alliance paladins. Back in the naaru-enslaving days they held Light more as a practical source of power, which felt a more interesting take for Horde paladins.

While i agree it's a more interesting take on the whole Paladin-dealie (I find the whole "Lawful good"-schtick rather boring, myself), it doesn't fit with the rest of WoW's paladin fantasy at all, paladins can be misguided (Scarlet crusade/onslaught), but doing something as outright evil as enslaving and draining the power from a Naaru... would have caused some tense scenes in the ol' order hall back in Legion, i'd wager...

[Super Dickmann]

While i agree it's a more interesting take on the whole Paladin-dealie (I find the whole "Lawful good"-schtick rather boring, myself), it doesn't fit with the rest of WoW's paladin fantasy at all, paladins can be misguided (Scarlet crusade/onslaught), but doing something as outright evil as enslaving and draining the power from a Naaru... would have caused some tense scenes in the ol' order hall back in Legion, i'd wager...

The Order Halls were a mistake. The fact that there's a priest Order Hall for instance where void and Light worshipers palled along was already a carfire and the paladin Order Hall is already such a joke that after the Death Knights attack them they ask for their help to re-corrupt the Ashbringer.

[Zuben]

While i agree it's a more interesting take on the whole Paladin-dealie (I find the whole "Lawful good"-schtick rather boring, myself), it doesn't fit with the rest of WoW's paladin fantasy at all, paladins can be misguided (Scarlet crusade/onslaught), but doing something as outright evil as enslaving and draining the power from a Naaru... would have caused some tense scenes in the ol' order hall back in Legion, i'd wager...

Those halls were forced together in the first place, so I wouldn't worry.

[mysticx]

The Order Halls were a mistake. The fact that there's a priest Order Hall for instance where void and Light worshipers palled along was already a carfire and the paladin Order Hall is already such a joke that after the Death Knights attack them they ask for their help to re-corrupt the Ashbringer.

Yeah, the order halls were rather weird, in the grand scheme of things, but if i had to pick one thing as reason for the paladin homogenization, it would be that...

[Terongor]

Well, any paladins, or shaman, let alone druids siding with Sylvanas after that is quite frankly ludicrous, but that whole thing was a matter of "gameplay over story", anyway.

It's mostly the edgelord-section of Horde players (You know the type, play Forsaken, blood elf, or occasionally Zandalari, making "Bonfire" or "Marshmallows" jokes in every thread about Teldrassil) who object to the Blood knights becoming more paladin-esque in their actions, they just want to play the evil faction, and paladins acting like actual paladins goes against that.

We saw from baine freeing scenario how belfs bear a grudge towards alliance for purge of dalaran so it wouldn't be a streach for blood knights who heard tales about it from survivors would want revenge and belf herritage armor q mention alot of belfs see that they owed their life to sylvanas on how she defended them against arthas as they think all of them would have died if she wouldn't have fought against the scourge tenaciously.

we had shamans following garrosh of their own free will and bfa CE novels mentioned orcs who grew up or were young ones in interment camps bear a grudge towards alliance so on orcs shamans it wouldn't be a strech and would depend on individual.

about and well jungle trolls have being hunted by humans for generations so there would be darkspears too. Zandalari side you could look at how zandalari acted in 4.1 so its not a strech.

Only races class individuals who don't have any legitimate reason are taurens

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, the order halls were rather weird, in the grand scheme of things, but if i had to pick one thing as reason for the paladin homogenization, it would be that...

The ones that work are those that already lend themselves to a uniform class identity or the ones who are entirely out of context. Demon Hunters, Monks (though their class order hall story was crap), Death Knights especially all work. I really enjoyed Warrior even though/because it was about Odyn. But when the racial spin on the class is more important than the overall feel, like it is with paladins, priests and even to an extent druids because of trolls and worgen, having one experience for them really lets it down.

[Arrashi]

It was one of the first steps in process of "blandification" of horde. They were pretty much first of many.

[Mirn]

Personally I was not a fan of the Blood Elves being 'redeemed' through having the Sunwell returned and them turning back to light worship. I liked the idea of challenging the notion of the Naaru and the light being some kind of omnipotent force in the world that is solely a source of good (keep in mind current revelations about the Naaru had not happened yet at this time). The idea that you could catch and forcibly take this apparently 'god-given' power from one of these beings worthy of worship, in a way, proved that they simply aren't much better than a demon being siphoned for fel energy. I feel like this should have broken most if not all adoration of the Naaru as pure beings of salvation. Amongst the Sin'dori at least.

For me, it doubled-down on the idea of Blood Elves being fanatical about the idea of magic as a tool, something to be studied, practised and formed by the caster. Not a divine energy that is given to or taken from a supplicant by geometric sky-daddy, depending on how good they've been (On sky-daddies terms, mind). It, to me, reinforced their identity as a people determined to never be beholden to anyone or anything again for their identity and strength (ironic, given their addiction, but this adds colour), making them hated for their questionable methods in obtaining this by the established powers of the Alliance, and giving them an interesting niche and made them fit as the Horde's elves (Survival against a world that rejects them, living under difficult circumstances, etc etc.)

Part of the pushback against this certainly comes from edge-lords wanting to be Darth Legolas in Azeroth, true, but the current rendition feels like it just veered so far from this pitfall that it swan dived into the opposite but no less deep one: Lawful-Dull Legolas. Nothing makes a concept in fantasy more boring than homogeny, if all paladins are always good and the concept of being 'lightweilder' is never challenged or viewed from a different perspective, people will stop caring about them. Even if that new perspective ends up being wrong, or bad, or not how paladins should be as defined by the humans of the Alliance, it does not stop it from being valuable or interesting.

On a side note, I also think this can sometimes feel indicative of a problem with how Blizzard used to write their races and factions as opposed to how they write them now. I wont say it was perfect before, but something that hit a note with me (I started with Warcraft 3) was the attempt to subvert expected fantasy tropes. I'm not saying these tropes are bad, or that Blizzard's attempts to do something different with them were always good, but there was an attempt and it often made it more interesting. Orcs that aren't slavering savages, trolls that aren't barley-sentient underbridge dwellers, undead that aren't mindless vectors of their condition and elves that aren't High, Dark or Wood, but sometimes something in between. As of late, it seems like Blizzard has started to recede into expected ideas and one-note characterisations to make it easier to produce story they can tack onto pre-produced gameplay, so they've started to remove any need for people to think about what is in front them beyond "Blue nice, red mean. Orc bad, human good. Tribal violent, civilized passive."

The more they bleed nuance from the game in an attempt to homogenise the ideals of every character, race and faction into the lawful-dull, good-beyond-great side of the spectrum of ethics, morals and ideals the less we will have to enjoy in the story and lore. The recent abundance of this in BfA has caused this older and less egregious case to come-up again as it is one of the earliest examples of the road that has lead us to a Horde that feels nothing like it did in W3 and Vanilla.

[Sigxy]

You had to burn a fucking church for the epic mount - and not just any church, but the one where the Silver Hand was actually created.

Makes you wonder if that part was retconned, given how it's still standing after Cataclysm placing quest givers there and the Silver Hand using it during the Legion Mount Quest (My character: "Hang on, didn't I BURN this to the ground?")

But yeah, I didn't like how they changed Blood Knights to be generic Paladins. The reason I really loved the older WoW is because of all the flavour going on with races and classes (Priests of different races got one or two different spells). I know it's an 'MMO'RPG so people throw out the excuse "It's an MMO, who cares about the RPG aspects?" but I actually do, given how I've RP'd since starting WoW. And just like how classes were all pruned over the years in terms of abilities, that is what Blood Knights suffered in terms of lore.

Metzen said that during WoD there was supposed to be some story telling about the Blood Knights and the Light but... yeah, WoD cut a lot of content. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_Knig...tes_and_trivia

In any case: I'm still RPing a Blood Knight who refuses to worship the Light. It is a tool and Blood Knights are the true masters of it - but sadly more of them are starting to blindly follow Liadrin who spouts out "FOR THE LIGHT!" more than any Alliance Paladin ever did.

[Soon-TM]

The Order Halls were a mistake. The fact that there's a priest Order Hall for instance where void and Light worshipers palled along was already a carfire and the paladin Order Hall is already such a joke that after the Death Knights attack them they ask for their help to re-corrupt the Ashbringer.

Not to mention how stupid was to dump followers of Loa, the Holy Light, the Forgotten Shadow and Elune into a vaguely Draenei-themed basement, and then have everyone blindly follow the High Priest™. That part was so cringey