The Failure Warmode is going into Shadowlands?

[Raelbo]

Even if you don't see it that way, fact is that having War Mode active hinders your progress. The bonus (10%) was implemented to counteract that to make it feel like you aren't punishing yourself for having it on. That bonus was later expanded & increased because the faction representation was heavily skewed.

The problem is that this bonus has become the reason most players enable WM. The reason it's a problem is that the result is that WM is filled with players who aren't there because they enjoy WPvP. They're there because they are motivated by the rewards. Which translates into most players actively avoiding WPvP.

Take, for example, the Battle for Nazjatar. It's a complete joke because most people don't care about the PvP, they only care about getting the win and the rewards. I have never had an actual "battle" because as soon as one side starts losing, everyone on the shard just looks for a "Battle Naz winning" group in the group finder tools and joins that raid. So what you have always is a raid of one faction against a non-existent opponent. The only challenge is trying to find a player from the other faction to kill before your team caps all the flags, so that you can get credit for the event.

Even Call to Arms is a joke. Typically it's a 5 man group farming lone players who are trying to do their world quests. Which quickly results in everyone on that shard hopping to another shard where their faction is stronger, or occasionally forming a raid group to take out the 5 aggressors who then quickly disband and find other groups to join.

The point is that WM WPvP is never on even footing. You're either heavily outmatching your opponents, or being heavily outmatched. Which means that it's never really fun, because what PvP fun is when you have two reasonably well matched opponent. Or rather that the fun sweet spot is an unstable state that doesn't really exist except for very brief glimpses.

If they want to fix WM (yes, it is very, very broken) they need to do 2 things:
1) Make sure that there no incentive for anyone who doesn't actively want to actively engage in WPvP to be there. That means getting rid of the +% bonus to PvE objectives, and instead make all rewards for participating in WM become purely PvP.
2) Put tech in place to counter shard hopping by putting groups into the same shards. So, for example, in Battle for Naz, if you have Alliance and Horde raids forming on different shards, put both raids into the same shard.

[Rune B]

Wow, spoken like someone with at most 1k HKs. Sweet fuck, do you do this kind of self deluding in real life too?

I apologize if I hit a nerve. But it's a fact that most PvP'ers want to faceroll. Blizzard called them out on it by introducing XP capped battlegrounds. Which swiftly died because they finally had an even playingfield. Same thing with World PvP. It's about facerolling. Get rolled yourself is never any fun and people on PvP realms complained about it all day.

PvP in a PvE game that's RNG and gear based was always going to suck. If you want to PvP there really are much better games out there.

[prwraith]

If you are only in warmode for 10% more rewards there is no help for you and you deserve whatever aggravation you get.

I'm fairly sure that's why everyone has it on outside the extreme minority of PvPers

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, spoken like someone with at most 1k HKs. Sweet fuck, do you do this kind of self deluding in real life too?

Is that the new thing now? Do we compare HK's as if they matter to anyone?

[skajaki]

I don't understand the problem with WM rewarding bonus xp/gold/whatever.

Everyone make their own choice on whether they want to play with it on or off.
If you disable it, you will get the intended reward.
If you enable it, you will get the intended reward + bonus.

Meaning, that if you play with it on, you'll potentially reach max level, exalted with a rep, or higher level of your cloak, faster than you would with it turned off.
However, both options are viable, and the bonus reward is there to reward players for playing with a higher risk of dieing.
The question is whether a player value the bonus rewards more than the comfort of playing without the risk of dieing of PvP.

Also, how often do people kill eachother during dailies (I assume this is where people believe there is a problem)?
I play Alliance, and almost everyone wants to be done with them as quickly as possible, and get the rewards for doing them, both Horde and Alliance players. In my experience I only die / kill someone when doing the "25 kills of other faction"quest, or I need a rare kill and the other faction has targeted the mob. This is expected when I play with WM on, and I'm more than okay with it. If you're not, then don't play with it on. It's as simple as that.

Someone suggested earlier in the thread that they should remove the bonus rewards from activating WM, meaning a lot of players would choose to turn it off then.
This is probably true, but not because "everyone" despise world PvP, but because the value of playing with WM on will be less due to it being a higher risk, but just as rewarding as not playing with it.

[Varitok]

Who gives a shit about those? The only real reward is something that increases player power. The feeling of progression.

Yet, all those games have people giving a fuck ton of money over to access those rewards. Your 'real' reward does not mesh well with the reality that Battle passes sell like gangbusters.

[ymirsson]

, meaning a lot of players would choose to turn it off then.
This is probably true, but not because "everyone" despise world PvP, but because the value of playing with WM on will be less due to it being a higher risk, but just as rewarding as not playing with it.

You hav it backwards. The only reason why people activate WM is not because they like wPvP but because there are tangible benefits to it. To most people, there wouldn't be a single argument in favor of WM if it had no bonuses. And most who do have it activated on principle are arguably in the habit of ganking the everliving shit of any red nameplate.

[Segus1992]

Sweetie, I know - that's kind of my point. It's always been primarily Alliance pop regardless of sharding, but for some reason the last few days have been persistent incels ganking people.

"Sweetie, I know" yet you brought up the server. Hard to admit you're wrong?

The problem is that this bonus has become the reason most players enable WM. The reason it's a problem is that the result is that WM is filled with players who aren't there because they enjoy WPvP. They're there because they are motivated by the rewards. Which translates into most players actively avoiding WPvP.

Take, for example, the Battle for Nazjatar. It's a complete joke because most people don't care about the PvP, they only care about getting the win and the rewards. I have never had an actual "battle" because as soon as one side starts losing, everyone on the shard just looks for a "Battle Naz winning" group in the group finder tools and joins that raid. So what you have always is a raid of one faction against a non-existent opponent. The only challenge is trying to find a player from the other faction to kill before your team caps all the flags, so that you can get credit for the event.

Even Call to Arms is a joke. Typically it's a 5 man group farming lone players who are trying to do their world quests. Which quickly results in everyone on that shard hopping to another shard where their faction is stronger, or occasionally forming a raid group to take out the 5 aggressors who then quickly disband and find other groups to join.

The point is that WM WPvP is never on even footing. You're either heavily outmatching your opponents, or being heavily outmatched. Which means that it's never really fun, because what PvP fun is when you have two reasonably well matched opponent. Or rather that the fun sweet spot is an unstable state that doesn't really exist except for very brief glimpses.

If they want to fix WM (yes, it is very, very broken) they need to do 2 things:
1) Make sure that there no incentive for anyone who doesn't actively want to actively engage in WPvP to be there. That means getting rid of the +% bonus to PvE objectives, and instead make all rewards for participating in WM become purely PvP.
2) Put tech in place to counter shard hopping by putting groups into the same shards. So, for example, in Battle for Naz, if you have Alliance and Horde raids forming on different shards, put both raids into the same shard.

The problem here is sharding in general. It's too easy to swap shards, so you're never motivated to fight in a losing battle, and it's too easy to recruit a gank squad. Those are legitimate problems with War Mode for sure. The good thing about the PvP War Mode introduces (aside from the rare kill farms in Nazjatar - ie not during the event) are the sporadic spontaneous fights between 2-5 people. They do happen frequently, but the current version of War Mode (or rather, sharding) doesn't allow for grand scale World PvP to work well.

I apologize if I hit a nerve. But it's a fact that most PvP'ers want to faceroll. Blizzard called them out on it by introducing XP capped battlegrounds. Which swiftly died because they finally had an even playingfield. Same thing with World PvP. It's about facerolling. Get rolled yourself is never any fun and people on PvP realms complained about it all day.

PvP in a PvE game that's RNG and gear based was always going to suck. If you want to PvP there really are much better games out there.

Nobody signs up for anything to lose. This is also exactly why there are people who are completely allergic to PvP in general - losing isn't fun. It does however increase the sense of achievement of actually winning, but only if losing sucked.

Yes, most (all, really) PvPers want to win. All players want to win. Some people love winning for free, and some people love pissing people off. Hence: those that have War Mode turned off while doing WQs, those that leave any form of PvE as soon as one wipe happens and, in the last case, those that gank. Implying that that's anywhere near a majority of PvPers is ridiculous.

I'm not going to defend twinking because I agree the motivation was always to be able to gank players of an equal level for everyone who doesn't still do it (though, to be fair to those that quit doing it, the queue times are also WAY longer with locked exp).

Is that the new thing now? Do we compare HK's as if they matter to anyone?

Are you actually asking or are you pretending to not understand the point? I mentioned HKs because he sounded very much like the self-proclaimed expert despite having almost zero experience. It's very common when discussing War Mode in general.

[THEORACLE64]

"Sweetie, I know" yet you brought up the server. Hard to admit you're wrong?.

I was just mentioning my server? Regardless, like I've said, it's still always been major Alliance pop. These 120 incels are out in force for some reason lately.

[Logwyn]

The extra reward does not offset the time lost having to battle the other faction in PVP or corpse running. The warmode quests give little in the way of worth to do. I just skip it all and come out better on the other end.

[ymirsson]

Are you actually asking or are you pretending to not understand the point? I mentioned HKs because he sounded very much like the self-proclaimed expert despite having almost zero experience. It's very common when discussing War Mode in general.

Wait, arent HK counted character wide?

[FiveDkp]

I think they should scrap it. On NA/Oce - Alliance have the 25-30% buff AND they can shard to Oceanic which has more Alliance than Horde. So basically a have your cake and eat it too while Horde on Oceania have to keep it off.

Any NA Alliance complaining about War Mode clearly never goes to the OCE shard to get their easy 25-30% free resources and azerite piece via overwhelming odd.

[Segus1992]

I was just mentioning my server? Regardless, like I've said, it's still always been major Alliance pop. These 120 incels are out in force for some reason lately.

Oh I guess you didn't understand: Silvermoon (EU) has literally never been a large Alliance PvP server - it was non-PvP until War Mode put it into the same group as everyone else. I play EU too, haven't seen any real ganking issues anywhere that isn't easily avoidable.

[THEORACLE64]

Oh I guess you didn't understand: Silvermoon (EU) has literally never been a large Alliance PvP server - it was non-PvP until War Mode put it into the same group as everyone else. I play EU too, haven't seen any real ganking issues anywhere that isn't easily avoidable.

Oh, but I do understand - I was just saying it was largely Alliance anyway. I guess you just haven't been in the same places then, as it certainly is happening.

[skajaki]

You hav it backwards. The only reason why people activate WM is not because they like wPvP but because there are tangible benefits to it. To most people, there wouldn't be a single argument in favor of WM if it had no bonuses. And most who do have it activated on principle are arguably in the habit of ganking the everliving shit of any red nameplate.

I disagree, I don't have it backwards. Here's why:
All I said was that the reason why a lot of players would turn it off, would be because it would be a more effective way of doing WQs/leveling/whatever.
And the reason why it would be more effective is because when you play with WM off, you would play without any risk of dieing from PVP, meaning that you don't have to corpserun or compete for mobs (=less time spent on whatever you're doing, meaning that it's more efficient).

Obviously, this can only be proven true, if we knew that players already choose the more efficient way.
But wait... isn't that exactly what you're saying?

You said

The only reason why people activate WM is not because they like wPvP but because there are tangible benefits to it.

.
In other words, you're saying that players choose to activate WM when they're doing some sort of content, since it's the more efficient way of doing it.
Therefore we could also say, that those players value the benefits given from activating WM, more than the comfort of not being at risk of dieing from PvP, aka WM off.

So, no, I don't have it backwards. People who despise PvP will always choose to play the PvE way. If you prefer PvE mode, but enable PvP for WQs/levling/whatever, you value those bonus rewards more than your comfort of not having to die. You might not realize it, but you do.

Also, what you're asking for is already there. Just disable WM. As I explained in my first post, it's a simple matter of choice. Either you turn it on, or you turn it off.
If you can't stand it, don't play with it enabled. But if you do, don't start complaining that you got ganked by another player, you choose to play with it enabled.

And if you can't handle the thought of progressing slower than others, which I really think this thread is all about, well then that's another thing to discuss.
Leveling isn't relevant, since there's no cap on how much you can level each day. It's just quicker with WM on, provided you don't get ganked.
WQ's (especially Uldum/Vale ones), are relevant in some matter. And I would suggest that blizz could add a daily cap of coalescing visions gained from world q, instead of soft-capping it with the amount of daily quest we get. That way, they could add more quests each day, and it would essentially just require fewer quest to reach the cap in WM, compared to non-WM, and everyone would be able to progress their cloaks just as much as everyone else, provided that they meet the daily cap.

[Malix Farwin]

Weird to bring up racials being better for the horde in a pvp thread. You know since Emfh, shadowmeld and stoneform...

Not really when A. Even in a pvp setting Horde has better pvp racials like Will of the Forsaken for example. Second the pve community is bigger and influences where more people are going. IE more horde players therefore more horde in warmode hince why alliance get a bigger buff which ultimately comes back to my original point.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean you very clearly didn't mean "better racials" when you said "objectively better races" since you mentioned the racials later on too. Nor was that the only thing you said.

The racials are pretty balanced. Sure, many of the Horde racials are more interesting (which is another form of balance in which case Horde has the edge) - that isn't why there's such a growing disparity between the faction populations though, since it's been WAY worse before, but the faction imbalance hasn't been this bad to my knowledge - ever.

The only thing likely to balance the factions again is if Alliance gets OP racials again, which would force a lot of good players to swap - but obviously that wouldn't make people very happy.

What else would i mean when i bring up race? Second no they are not, not my a long shot. If it was so "clearly" then why did most people in this thread came to the conclusion that i was talking about racials and not you.

[Nefarious Tea]

Bring back PvP realms.

World PvP is outdated and serves no purpose other than giving yourself satisfaction you killed someone with unfair advantages.
You would never even try to engage in a fair fight, so cut the nonsense you wanna answer to that.
It's only there so you can flex on the low level and groupless.

And that's only sparking frustration and toxicity.

It would probably help if anyone max level instantly received a dishonorable debuff (like in Vanilla) when they attack someone not max level. It won't help with massive gear disparity (if you're not in Mythic Ny'alotha gear you might as well be naked in world pvp), but at least it would keep people leveling safe from getting ganked and corpsecamped for hours.

[ymirsson]

I disagree, I don't have it backwards. Here's why:
All I said was that the reason why a lot of players would turn it off, would be because it would be a more effective way of doing WQs/leveling/whatever.
And the reason why it would be more effective is because when you play with WM off, you would play without any risk of dieing from PVP, meaning that you don't have to corpserun or compete for mobs (=less time spent on whatever you're doing, meaning that it's more efficient).

Obviously, this can only be proven true, if we knew that players already choose the more efficient way.
But wait... isn't that exactly what you're saying?

You said
.
In other words, you're saying that players choose to activate WM when they're doing some sort of content, since it's the more efficient way of doing it.
Therefore we could also say, that those players value the benefits given from activating WM, more than the comfort of not being at risk of dieing from PvP, aka WM off.

So, no, I don't have it backwards. People who despise PvP will always choose to play the PvE way. If you prefer PvE mode, but enable PvP for WQs/levling/whatever, you value those bonus rewards more than your comfort of not having to die. You might not realize it, but you do.

Also, what you're asking for is already there. Just disable WM. As I explained in my first post, it's a simple matter of choice. Either you turn it on, or you turn it off.
If you can't stand it, don't play with it enabled. But if you do, don't start complaining that you got ganked by another player, you choose to play with it enabled.

And if you can't handle the thought of progressing slower than others, which I really think this thread is all about, well then that's another thing to discuss.
Leveling isn't relevant, since there's no cap on how much you can level each day. It's just quicker with WM on, provided you don't get ganked.
WQ's (especially Uldum/Vale ones), are relevant in some matter. And I would suggest that blizz could add a daily cap of coalescing visions gained from world q, instead of soft-capping it with the amount of daily quest we get. That way, they could add more quests each day, and it would essentially just require fewer quest to reach the cap in WM, compared to non-WM, and everyone would be able to progress their cloaks just as much as everyone else, provided that they meet the daily cap.

Were on the levels of semantics, but i am too drunk to have a meaningful post today. Ill try to reply later.

p.s.
you're wrong!

[Saltysquidoon]

Not really when A. Even in a pvp setting Horde has better pvp racials like Will of the Forsaken for example. Second the pve community is bigger and influences where more people are going. IE more horde players therefore more horde in warmode hince why alliance get a bigger buff which ultimately comes back to my original point.

If that's the hill you want to die on that's your business, but the alliance have unquestionably stronger racials in PvP its not even debatable. If you want to argue how that interacts with pop sizes, warmode and the horde's better PvE racials or even faction predilections that's a separate issue.

[Segus1992]

What else would i mean when i bring up race? Second no they are not, not my a long shot. If it was so "clearly" then why did most people in this thread came to the conclusion that i was talking about racials and not you.

Appearances obviously, and don't act stupid lol. Read your post again if you don't understand.

Racials are more or less balanced where it matters: PvP. The top spots in rated PvP are held by both Alliance and Horde - and if you think those spots are taken by the people who play a faction for the appearances or because their friends play there, you may be completely clueless. The raid disparity is extremely minimal with the racials alone.

[Nak88]

It is actually a failure, but it wasn't back when BOTH factions had the same bonus.