Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Themius]

And violence was used in the process of putting him on his chest and cuffing him. That is a reasonable police response.

I don't, however, think I want the police in my area to have military training in murdering helpless people. If that's how they enjoy getting their rocks off, they should join the actual military.

Military works in areas and literal terrorists, and terrorist sympathiser, then somehow manage to not going around killing random civilians because they looked at them the wrong way.

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Look I can't say one way or the other if this force was warranted without knowing what occurred during detainment. The death looks accidental but if what I suspect was true such force was warranted. I speculated on what I saw and will leave it at that. Until more facts are shown I won't be convinced of otherwise nor do i doubt I convince anyone.

I can't breathe
officers pushes his knee harder on the man's neck
man dies from suffocation

Accidental?

And why the fuck are you making up your own fantasy

[Endus]

Look I can't say one way or the other if this force was warranted without knowing what occurred during detainment. The death looks accidental but if what I suspect was true such force was warranted. I speculated on what I saw and will leave it at that. Until more facts are shown I won't be convinced of otherwise nor do i doubt I convince anyone.

That "speculation" boils down to "I made up a bunch of shit to defend cops who murdered a guy in cold blood".

Even if the guy had been violent, the moment he's subdued, there's no longer grounds for the use of force. He's on the ground and cuffed? Get off him. Continuing to kneel on him for 10 minutes? That's murder and sadism, and there's no justifiable reason for that act.

[Laughingjack]

Lethal force was not warranted. Full stop. Police Officers are not above the law. Or at least, they shouldn't be.

I doubt it was the intent. I believe the force that was meant to incapacitate was accidentally exceeded.

[Belize]

Look I can't say one way or the other if this force was warranted without knowing what occurred during detainment. The death looks accidental but if what I suspect was true such force was warranted. I speculated on what I saw and will leave it at that. Until more facts are shown I won't be convinced of otherwise nor do i doubt I convince anyone.

Or you could just admit being wrong instead of this lame cop-out?

[Machismo]

I doubt it was the intent. I believe the force that was meant to incapacitate was accidentally exceeded.

Based on what evidence?

[Endus]

I doubt it was the intent. I believe the force that was meant to incapacitate was accidentally exceeded.

Given that the cop continued applying force for minutes after the suspect went unconscious and limp, you're deliberately ignoring the video's evidence to make up excuses for criminal cops, excuses which the facts demonstrate clearly to be untrue.

[Belize]

Based on what evidence?

His made up fantasy world, and apparent need to defend cops murdering a certain section of Americans.

[Laughingjack]

That "speculation" boils down to "I made up a bunch of shit to defend cops who murdered a guy in cold blood".

Even if the guy had been violent, the moment he's subdued, there's no longer grounds for the use of force. He's on the ground and cuffed? Get off him. Continuing to kneel on him for 10 minutes? That's murder and sadism, and there's no justifiable reason for that act.

Was he attempting to bite or harm the officers even after being cuffed? Your assumption is based of the suspect acting rationally and simply surrendering after any hope of escape is gone. That rarely is the case.

I see the death as accidental unless further information surfaces. There may well be need for some punishment and possible remedial measures.

[Zaktar]

I doubt it was the intent. I believe the force that was meant to incapacitate was accidentally exceeded.

He was staring down at the guy after he was unconscious. We all know what happens to a person if they pass out due to lack of oxygen and we keep choking them. His intent was clear, played out in the video - he intended to kill the victim.

[Machismo]

Four officers have been fired, I did not know that:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...h-custody-fbi/

The officer who is actually on him does not appear to have a body camera, but it looks like the one standing off to the right is wearing one. They should release those videos as soon as possible.

[Belize]

Was he attempting to bite or harm the officers even after being cuffed?

No.

He wasn't. Watch the video.

[Themius]

Resisting arrest is not grounds for lethal force. Period.



Struggling to try and draw breath as you're strangled to death is not "resisting arrest".

Jesus Christ, I shouldn't have to explain that.



He was arrested for forgery, not assualt.
The only grounds for lethal force is a lethal threat to the officer. He could've full-on decked the officer in the face, and that wouldn't justify lethal force.
Your "if you want to use violence expect violence" garbage works both ways; if that's the standard, you're arguing that suspects under arrest can legally consider the officers to pose a lethal threat to their life, and that justifies responding with lethal force to protect themselves from their attackers.

You're making an argument that justifies killing police officers as legitimate self-defense. Because they're gonna escalate, and kill you, so you're legally justified in protecting yourself against that.

Once the suspect is cuffed and on the ground, they're under control and further violence is just sadism.

Honestly... in a lot of these cases, the officers should have been killed by their suspects, in retrospect many of them would have been legal.

You have a legal right to defend yourself from say, unjust arrest, or an officer unjustly killing you, so in some of these cases, the officers should have been the one to die considering their actions.

For instance, the cop who said that he was going to shoot this motherfucker, before they arrived on the scene, and then tased a man (who then fell and hit his head on a rock) and while he was unconscious, sicked a dog on him, and shot him. I mean if the person had killed the officers instead, in retrospect he should have, and had legal grounds.

Yet that isn't how the law works in this country, in this country an officer can raid the wrong home, and then be shot as the unlawful invader and the home owner can be charged with capital murder and potentially sentenced to death. (happened in Texas to a black guy, meanwhile a white guy with illegal drugs in his home who did the same thing, the grand jury decided there was no case)

[Endus]

Was he attempting to bite or harm the officers even after being cuffed?

Does not remotely matter.

He isn't doing so in the video, meaning that no use of force was warranted or justified.

You have this serious problem of ignoring the video evidence to make up exculpatory falsehoods that don't have any relevance to the actual incident.

[Lynarii]

Military works in areas and literal terrorists, and terrorist sympathiser, then somehow manage to not going around killing random civilians because they looked at them the wrong way.

Yeah, you're right, I actually owe the people in the military an apology because the vast majority of them do a far more professional job than this in some insanely challenging scenarios. It isn't right to disparage their work just because one guy in a thread is talking about how he's taught that killing is always the right answer to a problem.

[Themius]

Yeah, you're right, I actually owe the people in the military an apology because the vast majority of them do a far more professional job than this in some insanely challenging scenarios. It isn't right to disparage their work just because one guy in a thread is talking about how he's taught that killing is always the right answer to a problem.

It's fucking maddening.

Military are trained to deescalate, because escalating can be disastrous when you're in another country surrounded by enemies.

Meanwhile here, officers are just taught to run wild, and kill if you even get a whiff that someone is disrespectful, because disrespect can lead to them taking your guns and shooting you! And that isn't even a fucking joke, there is literally training that says that in some departments.

[Machismo]

Yeah, you're right, I actually owe the people in the military an apology because the vast majority of them do a far more professional job than this in some insanely challenging scenarios. It isn't right to disparage their work just because one guy in a thread is talking about how he's taught that killing is always the right answer to a problem.

In the military, when detaining people, we'd tie them, and often zip tie them together one their sides afterwards. Either that, or put them on their knees, and zip tie their hands to their feet. Sure, that doesn't work on the street, but putting him in the recovery position is not a difficult thing to do.

[Coolthulhu]

That was a hard watch. The guy was clearly neutralized even if he had resisted and they still wouldn't let go, it's an execution (and who the hell restrains people by sitting on their neck with a knee, don't they have handcuffs?).
Another thing I found deeply disturbing is the onlooker telling the cop to stop over and over and not calling 911 after the cop refused to. Are Americans not allowed to call LE upon misbehaving LE for some weird reason or law I'm not aware of?

[Laughingjack]

It's fucking maddening.

Military are trained to deescalate, because escalating can be disastrous when you're in another country surrounded by enemies.

Meanwhile here, officers are just taught to run wild, and kill if you even get a whiff that someone is disrespectful, because disrespect can lead to them taking your guns and shooting you! And that isn't even a fucking joke, there is literally training that says that in some departments.

Actually no they are not. They are taught not to escalate violence but you never go down the use of force tree only up if your forced to.

[Endus]

It's fucking maddening.

Military are trained to deescalate, because escalating can be disastrous when you're in another country surrounded by enemies.

Meanwhile here, officers are just taught to run wild, and kill if you even get a whiff that someone is disrespectful, because disrespect can lead to them taking your guns and shooting you! And that isn't even a fucking joke, there is literally training that says that in some departments.

Military are trained for years.

Police officers in the USA often do the equivalent of a "Intro to Watercolors" community college course of training over 6 weeks and then they're set loose on the populace.

[Machismo]

Actually no they are not. They are taught not to escalate violence but you never go down the use of force tree only up if your forced to.

And when you overcome the enemy by force, and they are in custody (as in this video), you de-escalate as appropriate. You don't keep shooting them after you have them detained.