Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[BeepBoo]

4 officers fired and pressure from the higher-ups is a start, but not enough. I hope they rot in jail and/or face heavy civil cases.

Stop being a fucking moron if you're going to be an authority who has control over peoples' lives.

[Machismo]

If there is 'systemic racism' then tell us which system policy is racist. Pointing to racist individuals can't solve a systemic issue.

It doesn't have to be a specific policy, it can simply be the behavior of those within the system.

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Okay but how is the system suppose to improve if you don't propose the solution. I don't get it...

The solution is to hold officers accountable, ALL OFFICERS, for their actions. Yes, that means any officer who witnessed it, and didn't stop it. that means any officer who tried to hide it on a report. That means any officer who knew about another officer breaking the law, and doing nothing.

Stop letting officers be investigated by other cops. There should be genuine civilian oversight.

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Which one?

Well, this one, for starters.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

[anveena]

Those cops need to be in prison.

[Deianeira]

From the start he is clearly struggling rather then remaining calm. Without seeing the start of the video I have to assume he was resisting. Once violence is employed you do not deescalate it until the situation has resolved.

Granted this is from my military experience and law enforcement is a entirely different set of skills but unless he has a way to complete incapacitate a hostile entity you do not allow them to recover.

What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Stop trolling please, and if you are serious well i guess congrats on being a douche.

Also if as you say you are someone with "military experience" you know that those two are not comparable since a in the military you are not taught to incapacitate you are taught to KILL.

[Orange Joe]

Not necessarily, what happened in the preceding and prior 10 minutes most certainly could change the results of a court case.

What could have possibly happened that would justify strangling a man for 10 minutes and not putting him in handcuffs?

[Jonnusthegreat]

Update on the story from NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/26/86228...-police-custod

4 cops fired. No reports of investigation.

[Elegiac]

What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Stop trolling please, and if you are serious well i guess congrats on being a douche.

Also if as you say you are someone with "military experience" you know that those two are not comparable since a in the military you are not taught to incapacitate you are taught to KILL.

Nah, the appropriate response is pointing out these sorts of attitudes are the result of the death cult the American right has built up surrounding the Armed Forces.

Or, as Eco Put it:

"11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. It is not by chance that a motto of the Falangists was Viva la Muerte (in English it should be translated as “Long Live Death!”). In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."

[Orange Joe]

I think it's possible to accidentally use too much force to the point of lethality. I'm not a judge though so I'll leave it to the experts.

If you have to hold it for minutes. It's not accidental anymore.

[Easo]

Weeell, this blew up...

I am not really sure the solution here is to simply stop any form of detainment once a suspect complains. The solution sounds like they shouldn't resist arrest...

He was fucking cuffed and on the ground. Can people like you stop being intentionally obtuse? You KNOW that cops are taught how to handle this, you KNOW he was not a threat in any way and you KNOW that it is obvious that you do not need to keep a knee on someones neck as that person keeps saying that he can't breathe for minutes as he fucking passes out and then continue to keep it there as he bleeds - I refuse to believe that you have not gone to school and have no basic understanding of human biology. Or logic, for that matter.
Did the previous case about choking people out teach you nothing?


Wait, why am I even arguing? I knew that people like you would crawl out.

If the suspect was attacking a person or an officer and refused to comply with orders I would fully support stopping him via lethal force. This isn't a game. If you want to use violence in this kind of situation expect violence.

Read the god damn lawbook. Your personal feelings literally do not matter at all.

I doubt it was the intent. I believe the force that was meant to incapacitate was accidentally exceeded.

ON. THE. FUCKING. NECK. Accidently? For minutes? HOW? Cop had no idea? His useless buddy had no idea?

Is it that hard to admit you are wrong? Yes, yes you can be wrong on the internet, imagine that.

[Coolthulhu]

That's nice dear, I'm not interested in semantic arguments. We're talking about an actual statistical problem.

Swear to Christ, Europeans need to acknowledge they're only able to view politics through the lens of class and aren't equipped to comment on things like race relations.

Nice generalization there. You denounce racism, but employ the same thought process popular which makes racists what they are.
And as to Europeans not being equipped to comment on things such as race relations, perhaps I should remind you where the CCCS was founded (no shame in googling what that is, go on, I can't see you), and where its successors continue to thrive (hint: Europe and Australia, not the US).

By excluding obviously bad faith individuals from the discussion table since they have nothing valuable to contribute. Take the hint.

So you should be excluded in the first place.

[Masark]

Hey now, they get amazing training videos like Milwaukee Police's "Surviving Edge Weapons".

...Which probably contributes to them being paranoid and fucking murdering everyone on a whim in hindsight...

And they get awesome seminars like Grossman telling them how they're going to have the best sex of their life after they murder someone.

Their careers in law enforcement are done.

Hah. If they don't get charged, they'll be working in the next city over by June.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/11/u...hire-them.html

[Elegiac]

Nice generalization there. You denounce racism, but employ the same thought process popular which makes racists what they are.

"Ah, but you see you are actually the racist" is a pretty old and weakass argument, dude.

And as to Europeans not being equipped to comment on things such as race relations, perhaps I should remind you where the CCCS was founded (no shame in googling what that is, go on, I can't see you), and where its successors continue to thrive (hint: Europe and Australia, not the US).

Not sure what in the fuck this has to do with the US' brand of racial animus being distinct by virtue of it not being a nation-state like most European countries are, but sure Jan.

So you should excluded in the first place.

English, s'il te plait.

[Deus Mortis]

That's nice dear, I'm not interested in semantic arguments. We're talking about an actual statistical problem.

Swear to Christ, Europeans need to acknowledge they're only able to view politics through the lens of class and aren't equipped to comment on things like race relations.

I see you're part of the problem as well.

On topic. I am usually one to side with the police, but in this case it is clear as day. The cop needs to be charged with manslaughter at a minimum.

[Elegiac]

I see you're part of the problem as well.

See above.

On topic. I am usually one to side with the police

Lol. Pot, kettle; these attitudes are why police brutality gets excused.

[Deus Mortis]

See above.



Lol. Pot, kettle; these attitudes are why police brutality gets excused.

Yeah I saw what you said to coolthulu, as I stated you're part of the problem. My attitude has nothing to do why police brutality gets excused. Plenty of videos out there of the police arresting someone and one of the other people say why are you arresting them they did nothing wrong when it was clear on video that they did do something that led to their arrest. When police fuck up they should be charged. They definitely get a free pass way too often.

[Inuyaki]

Holy shit... I got physically ill watching that video.

I hope they rot in prison for the rest of their lifes. Every other outcome is pretty much unacceptable.

[-aiko-]

I literally just watched a man suffocate to death, only to then have to read posts from somebody trying to justify it because we don't know what happened before it. This is a bizarre world we are living in, and I don't like it. I feel sick. This is a nightmare that I can't seem to wake up from.

[Elegiac]

I literally just watched a man suffocate to death, only to then have to read posts from somebody trying to justify it because we don't know what happened before it. This is a bizarre world we are living in, and I don't like it. I feel sick. This is a nightmare that I can't seem to wake up from.

Racism be whack, yo.

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Yeah I saw what you said to coolthulu, as I stated you're part of the problem.

Again, "you are the actual racist" is an old, tired argument that hinges on the popular myth that racism is the result of a few bad apples. What people in media studies might term the Crash Syndrome; Crash being a movie that won an academy award despite it being a pretty brainless for-your-consideration piece in which all the characters were over the top caricatures of what Hollywood liberals think racists behave like. The reality is that racism is a system of oppression, and while people being cunts certainly facilitates such systems coming into existence, believing that that is the sole source of bigotry misses the forest for the trees.

When I say "Europeans don't get American race relations", I mean exactly that; after the conclusion of the Wars of Religion the chief source of social conflict in European countries was, and still largely is, a function of class - whereas in America and other post-colonial countries, class is almost always secondary to race. The case of the Karen in the Park that was linked earlier is a demonstration of that, and why the "but there were poor white farmers in the South too" argument tossed around by neo-Confederates is bunk; because the way the systems are set up here means that even the poorest white, or a white woman, will still have social advantage and social leverage over black people in the same circumstance.

It's also why Bernie Bros have yet to be able to make inroads among minority voters, because they operate on a philosophy of European leftism; one in which all struggles are reduced to class. With the added 'benefit' of their tone deafness being an excellent avenue for people like TERFs and "race realists" to take advantage of.

My attitude has nothing to do why police brutality gets excused. Plenty of videos out there of the police arresting someone and one of the other people say why are you arresting them they did nothing wrong when it was clear on video that they did do something that led to their arrest. When police fuck up they should be charged. They definitely get a free pass way too often.

Sure it does. Giving law enforcement the benefit of the doubt despite all evidence that they should not be given such is just being facile. When American police are given adequate screening and training, then we can talk about that.

[Yuujin]

Was he attempting to bite or harm the officers even after being cuffed? Your assumption is based of the suspect acting rationally and simply surrendering after any hope of escape is gone. That rarely is the case.

I see the death as accidental unless further information surfaces. There may well be need for some punishment and possible remedial measures.

Man, if any of those things you listed off constitute grounds to use lethal force on someone you've got pinned to the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back, Imma guess your military service ended with a Section 8.

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The solution is to hold officers accountable, ALL OFFICERS, for their actions. Yes, that means any officer who witnessed it, and didn't stop it. that means any officer who tried to hide it on a report. That means any officer who knew about another officer breaking the law, and doing nothing.

Stop letting officers be investigated by other cops. There should be genuine civilian oversight.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

What is this such a hard concept for people to grasp? And why are police so resistant to it?

The fact that we hold cops in such a high light and pretend their job is the most dangerous job out there is ridiculous. If we grant authority to them, we should hold them to a HIGHER standard than we hold ourselves to, not the other way around. I just imagine everyone who blindly supports police had abusive parents that practiced the "do as I say not as I do" methodology of parenting while passing out with heroin needles in their arms on the couch leaving a pot on the gas stove in the kitchen while little so and so was waiting outside of soccer practice in the rain for six hours before Grandma and Grandpa finally picked them up.

[Machismo]

Man, if any of those things you listed off constitute grounds to use lethal force on someone you've got pinned to the ground with his hands cuffed behind his back, Imma guess your military service ended with a Section 8.

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What is this such a hard concept for people to grasp? And why are police so resistant to it?

The fact that we hold cops in such a high light and pretend their job is the most dangerous job out there is ridiculous. If we grant authority to them, we should hold them to a HIGHER standard than we hold ourselves to, not the other way around. I just imagine everyone who blindly supports police had abusive parents that practiced the "do as I say not as I do" methodology of parenting while passing out with heroin needles in their arms on the couch leaving a pot on the gas stove in the kitchen while little so and so was waiting outside of soccer practice in the rain for six hours before Grandma and Grandpa finally picked them up.

officers are resistant, because they count on the inherent bias of other officers who are investigating them. You want someone who is on "your side" when it comes to scrutinizing your actions. You want someone who has worn that same uniform, and is sympathetic to your side.

That is exactly why it shouldn't be that way.