I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Airlick]

Well that's like saying a old hobby car is better designed than a modern car, which is simply not true at all. Sure, it may have shitloads more character and more pleasing to drive old car but mechanically it's inferior.

If you only look at how flashy it is and how much electronics is sticked into it, this may be true. It may ride smoother, it may have more power, it may be somewhat safer, but that's about how far this mechanical superiority goes. I guess this is a perfect analogy for WoW retail vs classic.

[Zarator8]

I would disagree. Classes nowdays have far more unique abilities if we count the ones which are actually used. While also having a different rotation with unique spells. While the difference between a frostbolt and shadowbolt was the colour. And that was the only spell to be used for max dps

What does "which are actually used" mean? Because I definitely do use spells like Water Breathing, Farsight, Mind Soothe etc. Just because they're not part of your rotation in a raid/dungeon/PvP situation or one of the CDs you'd use in a raid/dungeon/PvP situation doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also, I'm not sure about other classes, but I gave a try to BFA Paladin, and all I saw are different damaging abilities whose only distinction was basically whether they'd give me 1 or 2 Holy Power, or if they were finishers. Plus a Rogue-like Sprint, a Rogue-like Interrupt... I definitely felt like I was playing a Rogue with Flash of Light and some defensive CDs more than a TBC/WotLK-styled Paladin. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand this GCD-filling anxiety that led developers to try and fill every possible GCD with as many spells as possible, no matter how flavorless and generic they look and feel like, the class's fantasy be damned.

Is it harder? Yes, maybe, probably. Does that alone mean it's more enjoyable? No, not really. If I wanted to play a class like that I'd play WotLK Enha (which I did, btw). Similar playstyle, but a lot more flavorful.

[Nak88]

Blizzcon 2020 has been officially cancelled.

So no official TBC announcement until 2021?

[Absintheminded]

TBC was good for world PVP, and awesome because of arena.

[Mosha]

Blizzcon 2020 has been officially cancelled.

So no official TBC announcement until 2021?

The physical blizzcon or the whole thing together? It would be silly of them not to have something virtual to get put their news and hype

[BenBos]

TBC is superior to Vanilla in every way.

So right.

It actually was WoW at its highest quality point ever. The few minor points were neglectable versus the overall excitement people had when they entered that “gate” to yet another World.

A LOT of people had missed the initial launch of the vanilla WoW event, so TBC had a much bigger impact.

WotLK was the end of the gigantic trilogy and while some mechanics became master pieces of technology (real time destruction in massive PvP battles in Wintergrasp and the then revolutionary personal experience phasing dynamic etc...) these were not always contributing to a better MMORPG experience overall.

WoW was undoubtedly King of the video game industry between 2004 - 2009. And the numbers in ACTIVE paid subscriptions proved it.
The rest of the mostly terrible stuttering MMORPG bunch stood not even on the picture...

[ArenaDk]

You completely misunderstood what he said. He said the array of situational abilities is what made them feel unique. So yeah shadow bolt and frost bolt may be the same thing when it comes to rotations, the differences between the lock and mage outside of max dps pve rotations couldn’t be more different. Where as retail basically only has rotational abilities and nothing really beyond that comparatively speaking.

I can see where he is coming from. In retail how many classes play out like this, “build X resource clicking Y then hitting Z as a spender”. Yeah sure the abilities may look different and they may be different resources, but they all ‘feel’ the same.

Where as in earlier versions of the game, mages teleports, food, aoe slows, Frost novas, pollies, blink,iceblocks made you feel way different than someone who has a hearthstone, soulstone, infernal, summoning stone, deathcoil, fear, drain soul, drain mana, curse of tongues, curse of weakness, curse of exhaustion, voidwalker sac etc etc.

mages teleports, food, aoe slows, Frost novas, pollies, blink,iceblocks . Because Mages dont have them anymore AND a own rotation with unique abilities?

hearthstone, soulstone, infernal, summoning stone, deathcoil, fear, drain soul, drain mana, curse of tongues, curse of weakness, curse of exhaustion, voidwalker

Which turned into hearthstone, soul stone, infernal , summoning stone, death coil , fear , pet kick, magic reflect shield, havoc, chaos bolt, dispell , howl and more

AND a own unique rotation

[Mosha]

mages teleports, food, aoe slows, Frost novas, pollies, blink,iceblocks . Because Mages dont have them anymore AND a own rotation with unique abilities?

hearthstone, soulstone, infernal, summoning stone, deathcoil, fear, drain soul, drain mana, curse of tongues, curse of weakness, curse of exhaustion, voidwalker

Which turned into hearthstone, soul stone, infernal , summoning stone, death coil , fear , pet kick, magic reflect shield, havoc, chaos bolt, dispell , howl and more

AND a own unique rotation

Fair enough guess I should have gone into more detail here even though I figured it would have been fairly easily to grasp for someone who has played retail in the last 5 years.

How UNIQUE are those abilities at the moment though? And more importantly, how impactful are they when you use them?

I’ll just go over a couple and hopefully you can connect some dots and get an understanding. How many classes have an aoe slow now? How many classes have some sort of iceblock oh shit ability now? How many classes have some form of cc like Polly now? There’s a ton of abilities nowadays that are basically assigned to everyone now. Think of rogues kick. Sure, they still have kick, but now so do rets... and ferals.... and monks.... and... and.... and....it takes away from the uniqueness of classes.

On top of this, abilities like making food and teleports and summons become almost irrelevant. If you have some one in darn and they need to get to black rock mountain, it’s going to take them a looooong time to get there. But with a summon this makes this class feel extremely impactful by saving everyone a TON of time. The same can be said for portals.

Now let’s go to retail. How much time is a summon going to save you? Honestly. Even with the world technically being 10x the size, you could be anywhere in the world and basically get where ever you need to be in a couple minutes. Also food.... how important is food in retail? Seriously lol. You could just sit there for 30 seconds and be back up to full no problem or you could buy food and water for literally nothing compared to what money you have in retail. In classic, water and food is relatively expensive, as well as the BEST food and water can’t even be bought from npcs.

You can use this line of thinking for any ability you want to bring up.

[Jurwi]

mages teleports, food, aoe slows, Frost novas, pollies, blink,iceblocks . Because Mages dont have them anymore AND a own rotation with unique abilities?

hearthstone, soulstone, infernal, summoning stone, deathcoil, fear, drain soul, drain mana, curse of tongues, curse of weakness, curse of exhaustion, voidwalker

Which turned into hearthstone, soul stone, infernal , summoning stone, death coil , fear , pet kick, magic reflect shield, havoc, chaos bolt, dispell , howl and more

AND a own unique rotation

Yea, except now almost everyone has a self heal, something blinkish, something sprintish, some single target CC/stun, some aoe CC/stun, some kind of damage immunity, some kind of dmg reduction, and a rotation or 2-3 buttons + 1-2 others that you click when center of the screen glows.

That's the issue. Back in the day classes actually felt different and had bunch of unique abilities. In retail, it doesn't really matter what class you play, you got almost identical toolkit and rotation. There's a good reason why Blizzard is clearly trying to bring this back with Shadowlands, though it might be already too late.

[deenman]

Let me guess, retail is considered good to you lol

depending on why you play it,yeah it can ofc be good,wile i agree tbc is a better overall expansion,there are still things i prefer or simply like that exist today,better raiding,more content to do,transmog,pet battles,rated bgs,m+

- - - Updated - - -

I agreed with a lot of what you said up until this point. But to each is their own. While retail isn't a horrible game, it was the first expansion to bore me.

I'm still hoping Shadowlands takes more steps in the right direction. Getting rid of pathfinder is one of them. Hopefully it kills other silly things like twinking or warmode.

warmode is the single best pvp adition to the game since arenas...i dont even think YOU want warmode gone,i think you dont want the pve insentives that warmode brings,and i agree,warmode just give pvp bonuses not pve bonuses

[ArenaDk]

Fair enough guess I should have gone into more detail here even though I figured it would have been fairly easily to grasp for someone who has played retail in the last 5 years.

How UNIQUE are those abilities at the moment though? And more importantly, how impactful are they when you use them?

I’ll just go over a couple and hopefully you can connect some dots and get an understanding. How many classes have an aoe slow now? How many classes have some sort of iceblock oh shit ability now? How many classes have some form of cc like Polly now? There’s a ton of abilities nowadays that are basically assigned to everyone now. Think of rogues kick. Sure, they still have kick, but now so do rets... and ferals.... and monks.... and... and.... and....it takes away from the uniqueness of classes.

On top of this, abilities like making food and teleports and summons become almost irrelevant. If you have some one in darn and they need to get to black rock mountain, it’s going to take them a looooong time to get there. But with a summon this makes this class feel extremely impactful by saving everyone a TON of time. The same can be said for portals.

Now let’s go to retail. How much time is a summon going to save you? Honestly. Even with the world technically being 10x the size, you could be anywhere in the world and basically get where ever you need to be in a couple minutes. Also food.... how important is food in retail? Seriously lol. You could just sit there for 30 seconds and be back up to full no problem or you could buy food and water for literally nothing compared to what money you have in retail. In classic, water and food is relatively expensive, as well as the BEST food and water can’t even be bought from npcs.

You can use this line of thinking for any ability you want to bring up.

How many classes have an aoe slow now ? That I cant tell you, as I dont have the comparison in mind, how many had it in classic / retail

How many classes have some sort of iceblock oh shit ability now? Only Mages, and Paladins have one on such level. No other class ( dk can copy it with luck, but we cant really count that)

? How many classes have some form of cc like Polly now? No class? Poly is unique by being a long castable stun, which heals the target and removes dots from it. But also stuns for a longer period. There would be two similiar once with fear which is also in classic and frog. But frog still allows the other player to move and doesnt heal him, but also has a cooldown. SO maybe 1,5 ?

There’s a ton of abilities nowadays that are basically assigned to everyone now. Not really, else mention some because the one you tired were not really true

Think of rogues kick. Sure, they still have kick, but now so do rets... and ferals.... and monks.... and... and.... and....it takes away from the uniqueness of classes.

Alright lets compare kicks. Rogue is a short cooldown physical kick, which only has a same effect one with monks. Even so rogue one is unique in the combination with shadow stab while monks use theirs rarely with any jumps. Feral kick is a charge which intterupts and can be used in different ways for different effects, and dont start to say and and and. Lets look at some other intterrupt? Shall we? Warlocks one is pet and the longest magical one. Dk has two, one without lock out on evolved pet charge and one magic one with range ? Druids/ priests healer still have none at all even

n top of this, abilities like making food and teleports and summons become almost irrelevant. ????? What? Do you not raid/ do dungeons in retail? everyone of this things is used almost everytime when one of the classes is there to provide

Also food.... how important is food in retail? I dont know? Seems to be very important when people pay lots of money for runes which gave less stats. So not only use people food but also a extra buff lol

In classic, water and food is relatively expensive, as well as the BEST food and water can’t even be bought from npcs. The best ones is still only cookable? whats your point? That caster dont have to sit down and drink after 2 enemys?

You can use this line of thinking for any ability you want to bring up.: Dark Sim ? Demo flight? Blood talons? Not unique at all and never used?

[Jasfa96]

Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

[Xalvia]

Flying destroyed World PVP and removed a ton of player interaction.

world pvp died with p2, do you even play classic

[Tyrannica]

warmode is the single best pvp adition to the game since arenas...i dont even think YOU want warmode gone,i think you dont want the pve insentives that warmode brings,and i agree,warmode just give pvp bonuses not pve bonuses

why ist hat? there is absolutely no reward structure in warmode, not even a cosmetic one...?

Its just bare bones, the falcosaur faction in legion when we had the old wpvp system was way more fun than this snoozefest. You get 3 or 4(if ally) wpvp quests - and all you do is just grind it out with a group of people.

The shards are so bad, that most of the times there is no real pvp, just some mindless farm action.

With the falcosaur reputation in legion and marks of prey or the blood coins in MoP, you at least have to have a personal kill...


warmode needs a lot of attention to make it truly a fun expierence, add loot to player corpses, add achievs to race kills and titels like in wod, add the old honor rank system of classic and it should only work in wpvp, so it will not trivialized by bgs.

wow that was hard making a game way more fun in like 2 minutes of brain storming - i wonder why wow has paid pvp designers.

If, i was the game director i would fire them all on the spot.

[deenman]

why ist hat? there is absolutely no reward structure in warmode, not even a cosmetic one...?

Its just bare bones, the falcosaur faction in legion when we had the old wpvp system was way more fun than this snoozefest. You get 3 or 4(if ally) wpvp quests - and all you do is just grind it out with a group of people.

The shards are so bad, that most of the times there is no real pvp, just some mindless farm action.

With the falcosaur reputation in legion and marks of prey or the blood coins in MoP, you at least have to have a personal kill...


warmode needs a lot of attention to make it truly a fun expierence, add loot to player corpses, add achievs to race kills and titels like in wod, add the old honor rank system of classic and it should only work in wpvp, so it will not trivialized by bgs.

wow that was hard making a game way more fun in like 2 minutes of brain storming - i wonder why wow has paid pvp designers.

im talking purely about warmode as a system...you can chose to be in a world with others with pvp on,and you get extra abilities and pvp events(it doesnt matter if you or anyone doesnt like them)

loot on players is a pretty good idea,same with tittles and honor ranks like classic,those are all fine ideas,but they are just additional stuff,im simply comparing a world with warmode vs one with NO warmode,and a world with it,is objectivly better than one without it,its like the old pvp servers just better and with the option to leave it wihouth a payed transfer

[Tyrannica]

im talking purely about warmode as a system...you can chose to be in a world with others with pvp on,and you get extra abilities and pvp events(it doesnt matter if you or anyone doesnt like them)

loot on players is a pretty good idea,same with tittles and honor ranks like classic,those are all fine ideas,but they are just additional stuff,im simply comparing a world with warmode vs one with NO warmode,and a world with it,is objectivly better than one without it,its like the old pvp servers just better and with the option to leave it wihouth a payed transfer

I only played on pvp servers - opting to put the war in warcraft off, is not exactly an improvement - why should that be a good thing? Rather put in bettter incentives why to do wpvp. This warmode on/off just puts in more layers in an artifical, shard driven world.

[deenman]

I only played on pvp servers - opting to put the war in warcraft off, is not exactly an improvement - why should that be a good thing? Rather put in bettter incentives why to do wpvp. This warmode on/off just puts in more layers in an artifical, shard driven world.

completly agree with better incentives(pvp ones not pve like now),and the sharding h8 is just silly,if your realm is empty you get put in a different one with more people,how is that a bad thing?also turning on/off is better than forcing you to change servers,it automaticaly increases insentive to take part in pvp by being an easy opt in

[Nikeyla]

I think that ppl often say that TBC or WoTLK were the best expansions because they have the best memories from this time.
First of all, ppl were kids and less demanding on spending their free time. And they had tons of free time. I didnt mind spending all days world pvping for no reason. Nowadays, I have a job, gf, sports and i somehow need to figure out, how to do the god damn stupid daily quests,weekly quests and caps with sleeping at least 6 hours a day. I need to do more chores than fun things actually. Thats not how I imagine a game to be.
After wotlk the game started to go full casual milking machine with lower and lower quality game with the original devs leaving and the game has been simply driven by ppl, who arent the real gamers following profits only. Lately everything feels like a low effort recycled content covered by higher quality textures with no real gameplay or bringing anything new, and original. Every new game brings something new or better stuff than wow, so once you try other games, you realize, how far behind wow is in either creativity or money policy. Why is the game still pretty much the same after 10+ years? They only shuffle few abilities or procs inbetween patches or expansions and call it a content update. You just cant say the game is good if you tried something else. Most ppl are stuck here because of many friends or the fact that they refuse to start over somewhere else. Obviously this causes frustration if the game just adds another sh*tty content with no creativity or the slightest show of balance attempt. So yea, ppl cant love the game anymore as they did before....

[Necromantic]

warmode is the single best pvp adition to the game since arenas...i dont even think YOU want warmode gone,i think you dont want the pve insentives that warmode brings,and i agree,warmode just give pvp bonuses not pve bonuses

I like the idea of being able to toggle PVP on/off to avoid having to split servers but yes, the PVE incentives to convince others to join and balance factions is... lacking.

And for arena, I didn't mind it's addition but resilience was the one of the top 3 stupidest additions the game ever had.

[deenman]

I like the idea of being able to toggle PVP on/off to avoid having to split servers but yes, the PVE incentives to convince others to join and balance factions is... lacking.

And for arena, I didn't mind it's addition but resilience was the one of the top 3 stupidest additions the game ever had.

heh,I think resilience is gr8,keep pvp gear in pvp,granted not the tbc resilience,the cataclysm one,the one that didnt lower the oponents chance to crit,that feels unfun,just damage,and mana drains