Rio, Curve etc. = Elitist?

[crakerjack]

I feel like the word elitest has 2 meanings when it comes to WoW. There's the typical slandering version of it where people use it as an insult. Like someone tries too hard and yells at their teammates etc. Then there's the elitest term that describes someone who tries really hard and excels, without slandering them. You definitely come off as the later. I considered myself an elitest under that definition because I would use various programs to measure how well I did against others when it came to performance in raids. I personally never cared much for pushing keys past the point where you no longer received better rewards, but I would definitely use warcraftlogs while raiding. There's nothing wrong with only wanting to play with other people who share that competitive spirit if that's what you're asking. If someone sucks at the game and wants to take offense because you don't want to play with them, that's their own issue to workout. It's like playing a sport. There's leagues where it's all about fun and the average person is mediocre at best. There's nothing wrong with that either, it's just how people choose to enjoy the game. I'm closer to you where I prefer playing with competent players who have fun playing at a high level. Either choice is better/worse than the other, its simply how we enjoy the game.

[Edward Wu]

Which is fine. But its also a big part of why WoW's community sucks now and classic was fun for the first 2 weeks before everyone went back to "me. me. me." mentality in a mmo instead of playing I dunno...a single player game.

There's a difference between helping a lowbie on a quest or two in Classic and risking my important key on bad players while i'm doing important endgame content.

Do Classic players regularly invite fresh 60s off the streets of Orgrimmar into their BWL raids for charity purposes? Obviously not.

[rhorle]

But you’re saying that I wont play with less progressed people at all which is not true.

Because that is what you stated. That you don't enjoy playing with less progressed people and I was telling you how to enjoy the game by saying that you shouldn't gate keep them based on their progression. I can only take you at what you've stated even after you try to back track and change it when you don't like what it indicates.

You also conveniently ignored the question I asked about how you would feel being turned down for things you know you are capable of just because you are not 12/12. Are you fine with being denied simply because you are 11/12 and not 12/12 with out anything else coming into play?

[Kaver]

Because that is what you stated. That you don't enjoy playing with less progressed people and I was telling you how to enjoy the game by saying that you shouldn't gate keep them based on their progression. I can only take you at what you've stated even after you try to back track and change it when you don't like what it indicates.

You also conveniently ignored the question I asked about how you would feel being turned down for things you know you are capable of just because you are not 12/12. Are you fine with being denied simply because you are 11/12 and not 12/12 with out anything else coming into play?

When did I say that I don’t enjoy playing with less progress people?

[Rotted]

Hi everyone. I hope you're all having a nice spring day.

I play WoW. I'm a 11/12 mythic raider and I have a 3k rio score.

I prefer to play with people who got approximately the same experience with current content as myself.

Therefore I use systems like Raider.io, Wowprogress, Warcraftlog etc. to see how much experience people have with current content to compare it to my own.

Do you think that makes me an elitist or do you think it's a fair preference?

Edit: Also, is being an elitist a bad thing?

To the first no, you are giving a perfectly fine reason as to why to use a whole range of resources to try and group with people of similar levels. This is what things like Io were designed. That however, is not how they are utilized by the majority of the player base. Raider IO is essentially a tool to mock people and cause toxicity. Its one of those good on paper but bad in practice situations.

To the 2nd, It depends on the person. You don't need to be 12/12m to be elitest. Anyone can be elitest its just pushing for the best that person can physically do. What is bad is how you act on that motion.

[Azerate]

"Elitist" is one of those words that are never used unironically by anyone with a brain. It's unfair, segregatory, and doesn't really say much. If someone is a dick, then that's that. "Elitist" suggests that being a dick is somehow connected with the person's skill / accolades in the game and that's a generalization, those are never fair.

And yeah obviously everyone is allowed to make groups with requirements they want, I think no one will dispute that. No matter what they call you.

[crusadernero]

I don't see r.io as elitest, but AOTC can be pretty elitest and toxic, especially when those who have it gatekeep those who don't. Pugs/Guilds sometimes are the answer, sometimes not.

With the amount of advertisements in LFG & tradechannel for sellruns that gives AOTC and more, those requirements dont really tell anything at all. Thats atleast how I see it. I even know several people in the guild im that just flat out says that they buy paid runs every patch to get AOTC even though they never raid at that level.

Probably one of the reasons why rio score is a big thing now. back in the day a achivment/title would often times tell if people had done content, but thats not the case anymore. So the community found a new way to tell the content people have done.

[Volatilis]

There's a difference between helping a lowbie on a quest or two in Classic and risking my important key on bad players while i'm doing important endgame content.

Do Classic players regularly invite fresh 60s off the streets of Orgrimmar into their BWL raids for charity purposes? Obviously not.

Yeah theres no middle ground at all. You have to use extreme examples of your max run m+ key for that week or a fresh 60 stepping into BWL.

Theres no way something like a player who regularly clears m+ level 13 runs and has a RIO of 1500 doesnt deserve a chance in a level 15 run?

He doesnt have the master dungeon achieve for that season he can never be invited to a 15?

This is what WoW has become and people end up just sticking to their guilds and limiting themselves to playing the content they want to play at a certain time when their guildies are online.

[Rotted]

Because that is what you stated. That you don't enjoy playing with less progressed people and I was telling you how to enjoy the game by saying that you shouldn't gate keep them based on their progression. I can only take you at what you've stated even after you try to back track and change it when you don't like what it indicates.

You also conveniently ignored the question I asked about how you would feel being turned down for things you know you are capable of just because you are not 12/12. Are you fine with being denied simply because you are 11/12 and not 12/12 with out anything else coming into play?

Im against IO in general, and generally the peoples attitude. But on the flip side of that.

Who do you think you are to tell him what he enjoys and doesn't enjoy? regardless if thats what he stated or not. You're literally acting right now the same way IO community does

[exochaft]

That highlights elitism perfectly. Further progressed players are better simply by virtue of their progression. You've built up this expectation that lesser progressed players can not offer you enjoyment so they are bad.

That's pretty much the heart of elitism by definition.

As an example, I used to raid top 30-50 US years ago. However, I currently have about a 2.6k rio score and am only 10/12 mythic (should be 11/12 tomorrow). Did I suddenly become less skilled and can't handle the content to the level equivalent of a 3.4k rio or 12/12 mythic raider? Nope, it's just a choice based upon my time constraints nowadays, so I can dedicate probably 1/10 of the time I used to towards the higher end of content. Most of the difficulty in the highest end content is having the time to do so, and finding 4/19 (more like 24-29 for a bench) other people that have the same goal and time available. However, in the eyes of an elitist, I'm probably a scrub despite my ability to likely be just as good as them.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that there is an elitist mentality pervasive at all skill levels of content, it's just those at the very top that get the most ire because their objective of scorn is usually a much larger population than, for example, an elitist at a much lower skill level. One of the hardest things I've had to combat is not only my guild mates and fellow players being a source of elitism but also submitting themselves to being the authority of elitism (such as "X guild did it this way, therefore it's the only way to do this encounter" when it's not a good fit for the comp/raid). When it comes to recruiting, I'll pretty much give anyone a shot as some of the best players I've ever played with are people who don't play the game much and have spotty rio scores and/or raid clearing histories... and conversely, some of the worst, most toxic players I've played with had really high rio scores and awesome raid histories.

All this being said, it should be kept in mind that setting standards for your group is fine, however interpreting whether these standards are due to elitism all boils down to (like many things) the reasoning behind it. Two people can have the exact same standards, yet one would be considered elitist while the other may not based upon the reasons for it. Being elitist is very much on a similar level as being racist in this regard, yet instead of you ideas and reasoning being from the premise of the superiority of a race, your ideas and reasoning are premised upon the superiority of the individual's status/wealth/intelligence/social standing/etc. However, many in society today can't tell the difference between what's racist and what isn't by just ignoring intent completely and showing a high lack of self awareness... which is probably why the same trend occurs when it comes to people determining someone is elitist while disregarding the intent.

[Gaidax]

*bunch of baloney*

I know it's a difficult concept, but it's completely fine to set your own standards for groups. If I make a +2 key group and put in requirements ilvl 480+ with Cutting Edge and 50k gold entry fee - that's my right to do so as group leader.

People don't like carrying dead weight? News to no one. I have no issues being a bad guy and I'll say it straight - I totally won't be carrying anyone below my progression level unless they go ahead and pay gold for the boost OR I have some other particular benefit out of it, like doing weekly 15 key because I missed guild group one.

Elitism? No, it's not. So cut the woke crap - "would somebody please think about the children???".

[crusadernero]

Rio is pretty useless/faulty, but curve is understandable.

But, given the type of pugs you can come across, i get that people want to use these measurements. The thing is, you still get them at the end of the day or you get the ones that are super elitist and will leave a key at the smallest mistake. Both are bad. There isn't a good way to filter them except friends list.

AOTC is useless today. take a look at LFG & tradechannel. Filled with advertisement for sellruns. Clearly theres enough people out there actually paying to get these achivs.

[Kaver]

That's pretty much the heart of elitism by definition.

As an example, I used to raid top 30-50 US years ago. However, I currently have about a 2.6k rio score and am only 10/12 mythic (should be 11/12 tomorrow). Did I suddenly become less skilled and can't handle the content to the level equivalent of a 3.4k rio or 12/12 mythic raider? Nope, it's just a choice based upon my time constraints nowadays, so I can dedicate probably 1/10 of the time I used to towards the higher end of content. Most of the difficulty in the highest end content is having the time to do so, and finding 4/19 (more like 24-29 for a bench) other people that have the same goal and time available. However, in the eyes of an elitist, I'm probably a scrub despite my ability to likely be just as good as them.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that there is an elitist mentality pervasive at all skill levels of content, it's just those at the very top that get the most ire because their objective of scorn is usually a much larger population than, for example, an elitist at a much lower skill level. One of the hardest things I've had to combat is not only my guild mates and fellow players being a source of elitism but also submitting themselves to being the authority of elitism (such as "X guild did it this way, therefore it's the only way to do this encounter" when it's not a good fit for the comp/raid). When it comes to recruiting, I'll pretty much give anyone a shot as some of the best players I've ever played with are people who don't play the game much and have spotty rio scores and/or raid clearing histories... and conversely, some of the worst, most toxic players I've played with had really high rio scores and awesome raid histories.

All this being said, it should be kept in mind that setting standards for your group is fine, however interpreting whether these standards are due to elitism all boils down to (like many things) the reasoning behind it. Two people can have the exact same standards, yet one would be considered elitist while the other may not based upon the reasons for it. Being elitist is very much on a similar level as being racist in this regard, yet instead of you ideas and reasoning being from the premise of the superiority of a race, your ideas and reasoning are premised upon the superiority of the individual's status/wealth/intelligence/social standing/etc. However, many in society today can't tell the difference between what's racist and what isn't by just ignoring intent completely and showing a high lack of self awareness... which is probably why the same trend occurs when it comes to people determining someone is elitist while disregarding the intent.

This here is why I specifically said experience with current content and not skill. As a stranger I have no change of determining your skill but I can determine your experience with current content.

[rhorle]

When did I say that I don’t enjoy playing with less progress people?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377094

You implied that I was wrong for telling you that you can't enjoy the game by playing with only "equal or greater" progressed players. Which indicates that you don't enjoy playing the game with less progressed players and only enjoy playing with "equal or greater" progressed players.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377031

You asked who I was to tell you how you enjoy the game in direct response to me saying that there is no reason why playing with people able to clear content (but less progressed) will lack enjoyment. And I wasn't even quoting you when I stated that so you it clearly hit close to home if it has brought about such a long attempt to refute it.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...3#post52376913

You imply that the game is more enjoyable when you don't play with lesser progressed players. Which implies you don't enjoy playing with the lesser progressed players because something else is more enjoyable. Enjoyment doesn't stop something from being elitist.

Again you ignore the question that would show how shallow your objections are. Are you perfectly fine with being excluded from stuff because you are 12/12 even though you are fully capable of doing it at 11/12? Do you see no problems with that type of gate keeping.

- - - Updated - - -

Who do you think you are to tell him what he enjoys and doesn't enjoy? regardless if thats what he stated or not. You're literally acting right now the same way IO community does

Because they asked what people think and engaged in the discussion with me. They also have stated conflicting statements on what they enjoy but only when they were deemed elitist instead of fair by me. Odd isn't it? That the remarks change based on the label. But none of that is a comment on how he can or can not enjoy playing the game. People can play the game however they enjoy to. They also need to accept certain terms or labels applied to that type of play

[Kaver]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377094

You implied that I was wrong for telling you that you can't enjoy the game by playing with only "equal or greater" progressed players. Which indicates that you don't enjoy playing the game with less progressed players and only enjoy playing with "equal or greater" progressed players.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52377031

You asked who I was to tell you how you enjoy the game in direct response to me saying that there is no reason why playing with people able to clear content (but less progressed) will lack enjoyment. And I wasn't even quoting you when I stated that so you it clearly hit close to home if it has brought about such a long attempt to refute it.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...3#post52376913

You imply that the game is more enjoyable when you don't play with lesser progressed players. Which implies you don't enjoy playing with the lesser progressed players because something else is more enjoyable. Enjoyment doesn't stop something from being elitist.

Again you ignore the question that would show how shallow your objections are. Are you perfectly fine with being excluded from stuff because you are 12/12 even though you are fully capable of doing it at 11/12? Do you see no problems with that type of gate keeping.

Okay so I implied a lot of things in your opinion but I never actually said it directly. No need to beat a dead horse. Let’s just put an end to it:

I often play with people less progressed than me and I do enjoy it sometimes and sometimes I don’t enjoy it. I prefer to play with people of equal experience to me but that doesn’t mean it’s the only thing I enjoy.

That’s how it is.

[Gaidax]

They also need to accept certain terms or labels applied to that type of play

Yes Mr. President. Would you like another cup of covfefe?

I was not aware that you are the labeling and certifying authority of MMO-C when it comes to how people play their games, please don't brand me with bad names - I don't know what I'm going to do with my WoW life afterwards!

[rhorle]

I know it's a difficult concept, but it's completely fine to set your own standards for groups. If I make a +2 key group and put in requirements ilvl 480+ with Cutting Edge and 50k gold entry fee - that's my right to do so as group leader. Elitism? No, it's not. So cut the woke crap - "would somebody please think about the children???".

Did I say it was wrong to set your own standards for groups? Try not to inject your own argument just so you can feel superior for defeating me. Of course putting in a 480+ item level, 50k, and Cutting edge is elitist. I am not adding any "woke crap". Just because someone is less progressed does not mean you are carrying them. Using that definition means that everyone carries everyone else because no one is equally carried.

So you are just a "filthy scrub" who gets carried to any group content you do because you rely on those group members to do content. Which is a perfect example of elitism. That you are carrying everyone else who hasn't done what you done simply by your presence. When they might be fully capable of that content and contributing just fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay so I implied a lot of things in your opinion but I never actually said it directly. No need to beat a dead horse. Let’s just put an end to it:

An implication is the same as saying it. Why do you keep ignoring the question on how accepting you are of being denied groups because you are not 12/12? That says a lot. The entire "enjoyment" thing started when you were stating that elitism is okay it a result of increasing your enjoyment.

[Volatilis]

Yes Mr. President. Would you like another cup of covfefe?

I was not aware that you are the labeling and certifying authority of MMO-C when it comes to how people play their games, please don't brand me with bad names - I don't know what I'm going to do with my WoW life afterwards!

you could dial it down a tone. Theres no need for so much sass

[Gaidax]

Did I say it was wrong to set your own standards for groups? Try not to inject your own argument just so you can feel superior for defeating me. Of course putting in a 480+ item level, 50k, and Cutting edge is elitist. I am not adding any "woke crap". Just because someone is less progressed does not mean you are carrying them. Using that definition means that everyone carries everyone else because no one is equally carried.

So you are just a "filthy scrub" who gets carried to any group content you do because you rely on those group members to do content. Which is a perfect example of elitism. That you are carrying everyone else who hasn't done what you done simply by your presence. When they might be fully capable of that content and contributing just fine.

Sorry buddy, but I prefer calling apples, well, apples.

Over the years of playing this game I kept hearing about these "diamonds in rough" that are fully capable of X, but when push came to shove, I was just way too often disappointed. So yeah, I'm a bit skeptic about your notion.

Certainly, it does not mean that everyone aside from my glorious self are shit at whatever content I'm proficient at, but there is no denying that an overwhelming majority of WoW populace is simply lacking there and it's fine to both point that out and not bother carrying them too.

There is nothing "elitist" about it either - it's a simple fact of life.

[callipygoustp]

Hi everyone. I hope you're all having a nice spring day.

I play WoW. I'm a 11/12 mythic raider and I have a 3k rio score.

I prefer to play with people who got approximately the same experience with current content as myself.

Therefore I use systems like Raider.io, Wowprogress, Warcraftlog etc. to see how much experience people have with current content to compare it to my own.

Do you think that makes me an elitist or do you think it's a fair preference?

Edit: Also, is being an elitist a bad thing?

Not elitist at all. Play the game the way YOU want to play.