Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[PACOX]

context is everything. I didn't mean in any way to throw out an insult at people based on race. My context was aimed at the violent protesters and their violent behaviors. For the record I would use the same context in describing the police who gun down or kill innocent people like the victim that started all this, I'd call police who do that as much animals too.

I can buy that and retract my accusations.

[Orange Joe]

I am not going to debate a paper that admits to guessing at numbers.

Who is guessing? I didn't say they were guessing. YOU did. I know how to follow links to the data. I actually read what I linked

[Eviscero]

Nice justification of why I didnt go through with it. I didnt want to work in the city. I wanted to be an EP. Those jobs are a lot harder to get by the way. But thanks for your hatred. Most cops are good people. A few bad eggs are the majority. Its like saying every mexican is a part of MS-13, oh wait thats the way the left thinks. If any evil person is called out we must be talking about all of them. Oh byw this community just turned the entire brotherhood of police against them. Have fun in this area if you actually need them now... They arent coming into that neighborhood any more.

Hmmm, not all cops are bad... Do you feel the same way about black people?

[Underverse]

Actually the do in America.

https://research.msu.edu/innocent-af...lly-convicted/

Not statistically relevant. From the work quote by your article:

Homicide: Fifty-four defendants were exonerated of homicide—52 for murder and two for manslaughter.

That's in 2016. There were about 10,000 murders in the US in 2017 according to the FBI. According to this work:

About half of the people exonerated for non-drug related crimes in 2016 were African-American.

That's not murder, but I couldn't find a more granular breakdown. So let's assume that 100% of murder exonerations where black people. That's 50 exonerations per year, or 0.5% of murder cases. Even if we assume that only 10% of false convictions result in exoneration, we're at 5%. That's not substantially changing the 44% white/53% black distribution for murders. And remember, that's assuming that only black people are falsely convicted.

Indeed, considering that >50% of murders are supposedly committed by black people, one would expect that >50% of exonerations also be accounted for by black people. All of these statistics appear to be consistent with one another and do not reveal a systemic bias, at least for murders.

[Draco-Onis]

The burden is on you to provide a shred of evidence suggesting that it's such a systematic problem that it changes the statistical reality that I have put forward.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/

https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

I mean there's plenty of data like although drug usage is equal among races you are on average four times more likely to get arrested as a black man, ten times in some southern states. There's also data from the innocence project on wrongful convictions etc, if you don't know you don't want to know or cared to know to begin with you have your narrative already build up. If you want to go back further there's the Nixon commission that highlighted the problems decades ago.

[PACOX]

You underestimate the power of virtue signaling and outrage. You facts have no power here!

HIGHLIGHTS
„ The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had „ Police were equally likely to initiate contact with
experienced contact with the police in the preceding blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to
12 months declined from 26% in 2011 to 21% in initiate contact with Hispanics (9%).
2015, a drop of more than 9 million people (from „ Police were more likely to initiate contact with males 62.9 million to 53.5 million). (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%)
„ The number of persons experiencing police-initiated were more likely to initiate contact with police than
contact fell by 8 million (down 23%), the number males (10%).
of persons who initiated contact with the police „ When police initiated the contact, blacks (5.2%) and fell by 6 million (down 19%), and the number Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely to experience the experiencing contact from trafc accidents did not threat or use of physical force than whites (2.4%), change signifcantly. and males (4.4%) were more likely to experience the
„ Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or threat or use of physical force than females (1.8%).

Hmm. White people make up 64% of the population but have about the same amount of police encounters as black people, with black people admittedly being more likely to be met with force per this report by DOJ

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

[Underverse]

It happens far more likely to black and latinos... and due to an unfair legal system, many people who are innocent are bullied to plead guilty. Studies done by our government have found between 10%-20% of people plead and then later are shown to have been innocent.

Care to link those studies? I can see that being true for drug crimes in the 70s, but now? I doubt it.

[Stelio Kontos]

I'm gonna say this as someone who's generally on the conservative side, from a family with more than a few LEOs, and I'm even toying with the idea of going into law enforcement, but I don't see any defense whatsoever for what that cop did. He basically killed that man in broad daylight. Also been reading they both worked as security at the same night club. I wonder if the officer was settling a grudge with some murder while in uniform.

I'm fine with protests, shut that shit down until you're heard, that's legal and right. I can't bring myself to defend rioting and looting though. Don't wreck your own neighborhoods. I also don't think the looters and the protesters are the same group of folks, for the most part.

And also, where was the media today when groups of local black citizens showed up to help clean up the mess and destruction? CNN and all the others were conspicuously absent from that.

I'm conservative, sure, but I'm not blind. Amaud Abrey and George Floyd's murders are inexcusable.

[PACOX]

You underestimate the power of virtue signaling and outrage. You facts have no power here!

I replied to the wrong person, oh well

[Underverse]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5614457/

https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

I mean there's plenty of data like although drug usage is equal among races you are on average four times more likely to get arrested as a black man, ten times in some southern states. There's also data from the innocence project on wrongful convictions etc, if you don't know you don't want to know or cared to know to begin with you have your narrative already build up. If you want to go back further there's the Nixon commission that highlighted the problems decades ago.

Drug use is not equal:

In 2013, among persons aged 12 or older, the rate of current illicit drug use was 3.1 percent
among Asians, 8.8 percent among Hispanics, 9.5 percent among whites, 10.5 percent among
blacks, 12.3 percent among American Indians or Alaska Natives, 14.0 percent among Native
Hawaiians or Other Pacific Islanders, and 17.4 percent among persons reporting two or more
races.

From the second reference, see the table on page 51 showing a 100% use increase of cocaine for black people over white people and 32% use increase for marijuana.

https://archives.drugabuse.gov/sites...rities03_1.pdf
https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/de...esults2013.pdf

That said, black people are certainly more likely to be arrested, but not because of racism; rather, because black people tend to live in higher crime areas with significantly more police activity and are therefor more likely to be caught. Black people are also much more likely to commit a crime unfortunately and therefore it's more likely for a drug offense to be added to that.

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I'm gonna say this as someone who's generally on the conservative side, from a family with more than a few LEOs, and I'm even toying with the idea of going into law enforcement, but I don't see any defense whatsoever for what that cop did. He basically killed that man in broad daylight. Also been reading they both worked as security at the same night club. I wonder if the officer was settling a grudge with some murder while in uniform.

I'm fine with protests, shut that shit down until you're heard, that's legal and right. I can't bring myself to defend rioting and looting though. Don't wreck your own neighborhoods. I also don't think the looters and the protesters are the same group of folks, for the most part.

And also, where was the media today when groups of local black citizens showed up to help clean up the mess and destruction? CNN and all the others were conspicuously absent from that.

I'm conservative, sure, but I'm not blind. Amaud Abrey and George Floyd's murders are inexcusable.

CNN reporters were arrested. Anyway, I've seen lots of pictures of protesters cleaning things up today.

[Themius]

I did. Have at it. Don't forget to link your data.

Hell still happening.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/28/67171...k-men-and-teen

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Hmm. White people make up 64% of the population but have about the same amount of police encounters as black people, with black people admittedly being more likely to be met with force per this report by DOJ

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

According to them the government must be lying lol.

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Drug use is not equal:



From the second reference, see the table on page 51 showing a 100% use increase of cocaine for black people over white people and 32% use increase for marijuana.

https://archives.drugabuse.gov/sites...rities03_1.pdf
https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/de...esults2013.pdf

That said, black people are certainly more likely to be arrested, but not because of racism; rather, because black people tend to live in higher crime areas with significantly more police activity and are therefor more likely to be caught. Black people are also much more likely to commit a crime unfortunately and therefore it's more likely for a drug offense to be added to that.

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CNN reporters were arrested. Anyway, I've seen lots of pictures of protesters cleaning things up today.

Higher police activity isn't tied to higher crime rates..

For instance areas of New York have higher police activity but lower crime rates than some very white non-diverse towns...

and some DAs have noticed a problem where black and latinos are charged with crimes and given warrants for minor infractions while whites are entirely let go.

"oh the crime rate where we keep charging people is higher! I mean this other area has a low crime rate, but we also just let those people go and not charge them... but obviously that plays no role!"

[Stelio Kontos]

Drug use is not equal:



From the second reference, see the table on page 51 showing a 100% use increase of cocaine for black people over white people and 32% use increase for marijuana.

https://archives.drugabuse.gov/sites...rities03_1.pdf
https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/de...esults2013.pdf

That said, black people are certainly more likely to be arrested, but not because of racism; rather, because black people tend to live in higher crime areas with significantly more police activity and are therefor more likely to be caught. Black people are also much more likely to commit a crime unfortunately and therefore it's more likely for a drug offense to be added to that.

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CNN reporters were arrested.

For not getting out of the police's way when they were moving in to secure the ruins of the precinct building, not for covering the cleanup.

[Laughingjack]

Hmm. White people make up 64% of the population but have about the same amount of police encounters as black people, with black people admittedly being more likely to be met with force per this report by DOJ

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

I mean... there are two ways to interpret that...

[Underverse]

Hmm. White people make up 64% of the population but have about the same amount of police encounters as black people, with black people admittedly being more likely to be met with force per this report by DOJ

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

Yes, and in one of the articles I previously linked one major conclusion was that blacks suffer significantly more non-lethal police use of force (batons, tasers, physical restraint, etc) than whites do (the second major conclusion being that blacks are not killed more frequently than whites by police).

Regarding the article you linked, including all police interactions (traffic stops especially) will obfuscate results somewhat as the vast majority are non-significant encounters.

The question of why blacks suffer more non-lethal force is open. However, looking at crime statistics, that could have something to do with it.

[Themius]

Yes, and in one of the articles I previously linked one major conclusion was that blacks suffer significantly more non-lethal police use of force (batons, tasers, physical restraint, etc) than whites do (the second major conclusion being that blacks are not killed more frequently than whites by police).

Regarding the article you linked, including all police interactions (traffic stops especially) will obfuscate results somewhat as the vast majority are non-significant encounters.

The question of why blacks suffer more non-lethal force is open. However, looking at crime statistics, that could have something to do with it.

Crime statistics... I mean if you look for crime in one area and ignore another area... what do you expect exactly?

If you ignore largely 80% of white drug use, but try police near 100% of all black and latino drug use... you can't say that well clearly the stats say this black and latino area is just more criminal...

If you ignore looking for crime to begin with of course you wouldn't see crime...

[Underverse]

Hell still happening.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/28/67171...k-men-and-teen

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According to them the government must be lying lol.

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Higher police activity isn't tied to higher crime rates..

For instance areas of New York have higher police activity but lower crime rates than some very white non-diverse towns...

and some DAs have noticed a problem where black and latinos are charged with crimes and given warrants for minor infractions while whites are entirely let go.

"oh the crime rate where we keep charging people is higher! I mean this other area has a low crime rate, but we also just let those people go and not charge them... but obviously that plays no role!"

Higher police activity is tied to higher arrest rate and therefore criminal charges. Crimes are caught more often; that doesn't mean they're happening more often:

The New York Police Department (NYPD) under Operation Impact deployed extra police officers to high crime areas designated as impact zones.

Impact zones were significantly associated with increases in total reported arrests, arrests for burglary, arrests for weapons, arrests for misdemeanor crimes, and arrests for property felony crimes.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0157223

Please associate data with your claims. Some of the things you're saying could be true but it depends on context.

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Crime statistics... I mean if you look for crime in one area and ignore another area... what do you expect exactly?

If you ignore largely 80% of white drug use, but try police near 100% of all black and latino drug use... you can't say that well clearly the stats say this black and latino area is just more criminal...

If you ignore looking for crime to begin with of course you wouldn't see crime...

Murder is a better statistic than drug use since it isn't something that just goes unnoticed depending on police activity. I'm not sure why we switched from murder to drug use which is irrelevant even in the context of this most recent police murder.

Looking at murder statistics, you can say that certain areas are more criminal.

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According to them the government must be lying lol.

According to who now?

[Themius]

Higher police activity is tied to higher arrest rate and therefore criminal charges. Crimes are caught more often; that doesn't mean they're happening more often:



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0157223

Please associate data with your claims. Some of the things you're saying could be true but it depends on context.

See here is the thing, we already know that police target black and latinos for crimes, you literally had a DA recently trying to get arrested and have cops chase a black person not committing any crime while ignoring him a white guy near a wall with contraband AKA GRAFFITI EQUIPMENT which is illegal.... they chase instead the black kid... who's suspected crime was what exactly? They literally had a white guy in front of them with illegal items and ignored him.

If police target black and latino areas and people saying that x area has higher crime doesn't mean much...

For instance in Ferguson 3/4 of the population had warrants 97% of them were black many of the warrants were for extremely minor things that typically warrants are never given for when the people are white... yet for black people for the same crimes same minor crimes police wanted to round them up... why? Why is it white people get a pass or are ignored or just simply treated less severely while black and latinos aren't?

[Underverse]

See here is the thing, we already know that police target black and latinos for crimes, you literally had a DA recently trying to get arrested and have cops chase a black person not committing any crime while ignoring him a white guy near a wall with contraband AKA GRAFFITI EQUIPMENT which is illegal.... they chase instead the black kid... who's suspected crime was what exactly? They literally had a white guy in front of them with illegal items and ignored him.

If police target black and latino areas and people saying that x area has higher crime doesn't mean much...

For instance in Ferguson 3/4 of the population had warrants 97% of them were black many of the warrants were for extremely minor things that typically warrants are never given for when the people are white... yet for black people for the same crimes same minor crimes police wanted to round them up... why? Why is it white people get a pass or are ignored or just simply treated less severely while black and latinos aren't?

I don't know what specific event you're referring to with your story. Not a lot of people get arrested for carrying a spray can though.

And where are you getting your statistics? They sound like something pulled from a facebook BLM meme group. Anyway, surely there are specific cases of injustice, I don't disagree with that. But protests should be armed with facts, not hearsay. Protests founded on the idea that black people are being disproportionately targeted and killed by police are ignoring statistical realities. Protests founded to combat police brutality are more valid, as we clearly see in this case. What we don't see is many cases of police brutality that the media doesn't run with because they don't make interesting enough stories. But the statistics tell us that they happen.

[Themius]

I don't know what specific event you're referring to with your story. Not a lot of people get arrested for carrying a spray can though.

And where are you getting your statistics? They sound like something pulled from a facebook BLM meme group. Anyway, surely there are specific cases of injustice, I don't disagree with that. But protests should be armed with facts, not hearsay. Protests founded on the idea that black people are being disproportionately targeted and killed by police are ignoring statistical realities. Protests founded to combat police brutality are more valid, as we clearly see in this case. What we don't see is many cases of police brutality that the media doesn't run with because they don't make interesting enough stories. But the statistics tell us that they happen.

Literally we have stats complied by the states and the government. Our own government has acknowledged these issues multiple times so frankly... you either believe it or you don't.

I mean there was a documentary and I linked sources years ago about stop and frisk in New York.

And you say not a lot of people get arrested for carrying a spray can.. he also had stencils oh and if your argument is well a lot of people don't get arrested for that WHY DID THE COPS INSTEAD PURSUE A RANDOM BLACK PERSON DOING NOTHING over the white guy carrying ILLEGAL TO OWN OBJECTS NEXT TO A WALL LOOKING LIKE HE IS ABOUT TO SPRAY IT??????

You mean ignoring a white person literally committing a crime that often people don't get arrested for to instead pursue a black person who has done nothing makes sense? You don't think that is profiling or racism in the works right there?

"Oh well I saw a white guy in the act of committing a crime, but there was a black guy... he wasn't doing anything but he was black so I went after him instead." The fuck?

[Underverse]

Literally we have stats complied by the states and the government. Our own government has acknowledged these issues multiple times so frankly... you either believe it or you don't.

I mean there was a documentary and I linked sources years ago about stop and frisk in New York.

And you say not a lot of people get arrested for carrying a spray can.. he also had stencils oh and if your argument is well a lot of people don't get arrested for that WHY DID THE COPS INSTEAD PURSUE A RANDOM BLACK PERSON DOING NOTHING over the white guy carrying ILLEGAL TO OWN OBJECTS NEXT TO A WALL LOOKING LIKE HE IS ABOUT TO SPRAY IT??????

You mean ignoring a white person literally committing a crime that often people don't get arrested for to pursue a black person who has done nothing makes sense?

I just linked two government reports that already did not corroborate your claims and the claims of others in this thread. There are perceptions aired here that are not supported by available data.

Again, I don't know anything about the incident you're talking about, which you still haven't provided any sources on. It's possible, for example, that the black person in question matched the description of a wanted suspect. I don't know. And it doesn't really matter, either. Because you're just vomiting anecdotes while I distribute concrete datasets.