LFR should TEACH players to become better raiders.

[Seranthor]

Thats not exactly true, LFR being in the game hurts the raiding community.

If there was no LFR, people would have to go to normal (more normal raids) and some of those people would actually find guilds / be interested in raiding and thus get to higher level of it.

Instead taking a step into LFR only for it to be a shitshow makes people less inclined to try other difficulties - not to even mention the lack of forming bonds in LFR, say or ask something in chat and odds are you get booted out.
There are also arguments related to power creep, but LFR doesn't affect that a whole lot

LFR literally offers nothing but AFK character gearing to the game

Well, for one because I have played the game the whole time and I enjoy it. I'd just rather make the game better than an AFK gearbot farm.

If LFR didn't exist you wouldn't have nearly the Blizzard resources or focus on raiding and raid design. You would have longer stretches of time between raid tiers, you'd have fewer bosses, and there's a real possibility that you would be cut back to even two difficulties.

So yes, keep advocating for the removal of LFR, because in the same breath you are also advocating for the removal of your raid development resources.

[enigma77]

Lfr exists so Blizzard can sey 'Hey look how many people raid!'.

I don't think LFR is genuinely fun or exciting for anyone. It's there to meet participation quotas and that's it.

Raiding and hell pve endgame content in general in this game is only enjoyable when it is challenging and can be overcome through a coordinated effort. One of the two will always be missing in LFR.

[lappee]

You're factually wrong. It's a well known fact that the organized raiding community has always been a very small portion of the player base. Removing raid finder wouldn't make more people do normal. It'd just cause things to be like they were before where the vast majority of the player base never saw the content. Since raids are where most stories and major villain arcs are concluded that's pretty stupid and the developers know it. Raid finder is good for the game and isn't going anywhere.

It is a fact that organized raiding community is small, I never argued against it. In fact it just shows that there should be more compelling reasons to do organized raiding, and one of the is to remove LFR.
Organized raiding has declined ever since the introduction of LFR, and the simple reason is that people don't feel like doing organized raiding because they can just do LFR and be done with it.

And thus, the claim that "LFR doesn't hurt anyone" is wrong, and the claim "LFR hurt raiding community" is true.

I am assuming you don't do LFR - so why on earth do you care if it is there or not? why are you so obsessed with forcing people to play the game the way YOU want them to play instead of letting them play the way they want to play?

I do LFR occasionally (and whenever I gear alts on off-peak times). But the reason why I care is stated above, it being in the game hurts the raiding community.

But they would not. They would just quit or not do any raids. The classic Ghostcrawler quote on this https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...396162?lang=en
Perhaps this was the world in the infancy of MMOs in the late 90s and early 00s. But it really hasn't been the case in last decade. This phenomena is not exclusive to WoW or "LFR design".
The number of people who bowl has increased in the last 20 years, but the number of people who bowl in leagues has decreased. Same with memberships in most civic organizations. Our entertainment has been individualized. This applies to videogames as well.

Here's two references to start with: 1, 2

Except that none of that is relevant to the this case. If you were to take a look at number of people bowling and number of people bowling while paying a membership and then changed it so that bowling can only be done while paying the membership you would see an increase in the amount of people paying for the membership.

Now that same applies to LFR vs Normal. If you take the other option away, then people would do more Normal (even if it is just for the quests), the difficulty is around the same and the bigger difference is that you can't use LFR queue (aka you have to actually apply yourself) and not AFK the whole run (or wait for determination stacks).

Now your stuff would apply if we tried to get rid of Heroic and normal while only leaving Mythic.

[MrLachyG]

I mean, the OP suggested that raiders should be forced into LFR, which is the exact same thing lol - dictating to raiders how they should play. Did you think the OP was arrogant?

People can have opinions and express them, he didn't say it and say, "I AM RIGHT NOW AND FOREVER YOU MUST LISTEN TO ME." Just because you disagree with his doesn't make him arrogant for expressing it.

no OP's suggestion is also ridiculous and completely unneeded

[Vakna]

This thread is exactly the opposite of what LFR should be. LFR should be easy to the point where you could go afk mid boss fight and it wouldn't matter, and be as minimal as possible on the power gains from running it. Literally just tourist mode. LFR presenting even the most minor challenge doesn't have a place in WoW anymore, that's what normal is for. If you have to coordinate in even the most minor capacity, why not just go run normal where you'll be doing the same thing. LFR right now is in a really bad spot because it's harder than normal and that's just a really weird position to take.

[NaNaaru]

Raiders Bait

Let the top tier raiders control the boss himself to kill LFR raiders and some might do it without any other reward

[Baine]

Snip]

You don't know the mindset of many people doing LFR. Many are not interested in the challenge per se. They want to experience the content and get loot and that's it. They want to relax. I don't say everyone doing LFR do not want to improve. I say that many of them do not have that mindset.

[TheRevenantHero]

It is a fact that organized raiding community is small, I never argued against it. In fact it just shows that there should be more compelling reasons to do organized raiding, and one of the is to remove LFR.
Organized raiding has declined ever since the introduction of LFR, and the simple reason is that people don't feel like doing organized raiding because they can just do LFR and be done with it.

And thus, the claim that "LFR doesn't hurt anyone" is wrong, and the claim "LFR hurt raiding community" is true.


I do LFR occasionally (and whenever I gear alts on off-peak times). But the reason why I care is stated above, it being in the game hurts the raiding community.


Except that none of that is relevant to the this case. If you were to take a look at number of people bowling and number of people bowling while paying a membership and then changed it so that bowling can only be done while paying the membership you would see an increase in the amount of people paying for the membership.

Now that same applies to LFR vs Normal. If you take the other option away, then people would do more Normal (even if it is just for the quests), the difficulty is around the same and the bigger difference is that you can't use LFR queue (aka you have to actually apply yourself) and not AFK the whole run (or wait for determination stacks).

Now your stuff would apply if we tried to get rid of Heroic and normal while only leaving Mythic.

LFR didn't kill raiding. Every expansion the numbers have dwindled more and more likely due to burnout. The game is 15 years old. Wanting to get rid of LFR is nothing but a gatekeeping mindset. People don't like that anyone can experience the raid without spending who knows how long looking for people. The elitists can't walk around feeling superior to "the casuals".

Legion had some of the best numbers out of all the expansions. And once again, no. People will not turn to Normal for their raiding. Maybe some will but the majority absolutely won't. They're more likely to quit the game since the can't commit to a raid schedule so there would be absolutely no endgame content for them. I'd certainly quit the game if LFR was my only option and was taken away. Because then my only options for endgame content would be heroic dungeons and world quests. Having an entire aspect of the game utterly unavailable to me would piss me off and I'd unsub.

Once again. Stop trying to dictate how people should play the game.

[lappee]

LFR didn't kill raiding. Every expansion the numbers have dwindled more and more likely due to burnout. The game is 15 years old. Wanting to get rid of LFR is nothing but a gatekeeping mindset. People don't like that anyone can experience the raid without spending who knows how long looking for people. The elitists can't walk around feeling superior to "the casuals".

Legion had some of the best numbers out of all the expansions. And once again, no. People will not turn to Normal for their raiding. Maybe some will but the majority absolutely won't. They're more likely to quit the game since the can't commit to a raid schedule so there would be absolutely no endgame content for them. I'd certainly quit the game if LFR was my only option and was taken away. Because then my only options for endgame content would be heroic dungeons and world quests. Having an entire aspect of the game utterly unavailable to me would piss me off and I'd unsub.

Once again. Stop trying to dictate how people should play the game.

LFR didn't, but it doesn't help the situation either - there rarely is "this is THE one reason X happened".
Wanting to remove LFR is the opposite of gatekeeping mindset, I actually WANT people to experience raiding - that is the bosses and people, the community. There is literally groups running normal all the time, having more players in the pool would just increase the number of runs.
Heck, you can just make Normal difficulty curve start from LFR Wrathion (which really already is the same as Normal Wrathion) and end it up at Normal N'zoth (which, again, is the same as LFR one - people just need to learn one (1) mechanic).

Is it really so horrible that you would have to communicate with other person in an MMO in the aspect that literally consist of 10('s) of players? Or is it the fact that you couldn't AFK and get loot that would drive you to unsub?

[TheRevenantHero]

LFR didn't, but it doesn't help the situation either - there rarely is "this is THE one reason X happened".
Wanting to remove LFR is the opposite of gatekeeping mindset, I actually WANT people to experience raiding - that is the bosses and people, the community. There is literally groups running normal all the time, having more players in the pool would just increase the number of runs.
Heck, you can just make Normal difficulty curve start from LFR Wrathion (which really already is the same as Normal Wrathion) and end it up at Normal N'zoth (which, again, is the same as LFR one - people just need to learn one (1) mechanic).

I'm going to say this for the fourth time, removing LFR won't solve anything. People will just quit since they can't dedicate time to a raid schedule and now there is zero endgame content for them. And in LFG the majority of listings expect you to have an ilvl higher than what drops in Normal FOR Normal runs. So yeah, wanting to remove LFR is nothing but gatekeeping. Once again, if you don't like LFR then don't queue for it but also don't try to dictate how people should be playing the game. People doing LFR has absolutely no impact on you as a player. There are plenty of guilds on servers that do regular runs that you can join yourself. Just leave LFR alone and ignore its existence if you don't like it.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

Lfr lfg etc were introduced at a point when player numbers started declining to give players that were new came late in the expansion or did not have the means otherwise to experience the content.
They serve their purpose nicely.
Game does not miss good raiders. It misses a big player base.

[lappee]

I'm going to say this for the fourth time, removing LFR won't solve anything. People will just quit since they can't dedicate time to a raid schedule and now there is zero endgame content for them. And in LFG the majority of listings expect you to have an ilvl higher than what drops in Normal FOR Normal runs. So yeah, wanting to remove LFR is nothing but gatekeeping. Once again, if you don't like LFR then don't queue for it but also don't try to dictate how people should be playing the game. People doing LFR has absolutely no impact on you as a player. There are plenty of guilds on servers that do regular runs that you can join yourself. Just leave LFR alone and ignore its existence if you don't like it.

You don't need to commit to dedicated schedule, there are plenty of runs in the LFG, or you can make one yourself. More people doing so would result in more people getting in.

Should we really have solo Mythic raids just because "don't dictate how I play the game, I wan't Solo Mythic Raids so you're wrong lolololol". if embracing the community in an MMO game within the actual Multiplayer content is so wrong, then why do you play an MMO?

And again, people doing LFR instead of Normal does have an impact on me since I'm part of the raiding community. If all you can say "muh chooise maaan" and "Just leav me beeeeeeeee" then I'll just leave you with those responses.

Except the fact that they would actually have to "join a club" to do a Normal raid would immediately reduce the amount of people participating. People (generally) don't want that. They want individualized experience. That was the point of my stuff.

Edit: To put in more bluntly - the point of "my stuff" was to say, there's actually some real research and scientific papers done around this.

Yes, it would. I never argued against it, but it would increase the amount of people doing normal.
If we really want to compare LFR/ (guild) Normal to Bowling / (membership) bowling. Then normal being in a guild is like paying a membership to bowl, queuing through LFG is like joining a friend (who is member) and bowling with him (without paying a membership) and LFR is like Bowling area being FFA and some people literally throwing bowling balls to the walls - because nothing matters, you might get kicked but you can just join again and do the same.

And yes, your stuff is research but it is not applicable on this instance. If you can't see the difference between the two instances then there really isn't anything else to talk about.

There's one major problem this creates for some LFR players: in LFR, you know that if you queue long enough, you're gonna get into a group, and no matter how bad you are, you're not going to get kicked. You don't have to farm super high item level to make it in, you just have to wait long enough. That's hard to find in normal - especially factoring in the typical tank:healer:dps ratio at that level.

It's crazy, but you often get more of a feeling of progression from LFR N'Zoth than you get from a group finder normal N'Zoth. In the LFR group everyone is stuck with each other, but in the normal group people get kicked very quickly.

I resubbed recently and I'm tanking, and I'm not going to lie, I got some utility out of LFR. As you said it's very similar to normal, and gave me a low pressure way to get some familiarity with the fights. Then I went to normal, and now I'm 3/12 mythic and working my way up in a guild.

Queue times are surely problem as a dps, no matter what content you play. You can still get kicked from LFR (specially on N'zoth).

You don't get the sense of progression in Normal N'zoth because it is expected that you know what to do (from LFR, or research). Now if there was no LFR and you made Normal mode groups for progressing, then you would have the same sense of progression.

Tanks and healers definitely get more out of LFR and dps (purely because tanks actually have to tank, and healers have to heal the dps that just stand in flames). Then again the same familiarity can be achieved from normal as well, it is mostly the mindset of people wanting everyone to know what to do (even in normal) because there is "LFR to learn" (and Dungeon journal, + all the stuff on web).

Either way its good to see people coming (back?) to raiding!

[Kallisto]

If there was no LFR, people would have to go to normal (more normal raids) and some of those people would actually find guilds / be interested in raiding and thus get to higher level of it.

No they won't, the simply will not go to normal if there's no lfr.

Pre lfr 85-95% if the player base never set foot into raiding. It was an asset costly area with little to show for it. That's why Dragon Soul was pretty much copy and paste the raid. Funding of assets were cut and lfr being popular meant raid funding returned for mop onwards.

Hell WoD had more raid bosses, mini bosses and trash than cataclysm.

Not just that but we also know that majority of players don't rise to the challenge. They just leave. Cataclysm was a disaster for numbers in the first year because of heroic dungeon difficulty where after ghostcrawler told players to get good or get out many just decided to get out.

The Cata sub bleed was terrible, the bleed only stopped when lfr was introduced along side iteration 1 of transmog.

[TheRevenantHero]

You don't need to commit to dedicated schedule, there are plenty of runs in the LFG, or you can make one yourself. More people doing so would result in more people getting in.

Should we really have solo Mythic raids just because "don't dictate how I play the game, I wan't Solo Mythic Raids so you're wrong lolololol". if embracing the community in an MMO game within the actual Multiplayer content is so wrong, then why do you play an MMO?

And again, people doing LFR instead of Normal does have an impact on me since I'm part of the raiding community. If all you can say "muh chooise maaan" and "Just leav me beeeeeeeee" then I'll just leave you with those responses.


Yes, it would. I never argued against it, but it would increase the amount of people doing normal.
If we really want to compare LFR/ (guild) Normal to Bowling / (membership) bowling. Then normal being in a guild is like paying a membership to bowl, queuing through LFG is like joining a friend (who is member) and bowling with him (without paying a membership) and LFR is like Bowling area being FFA and some people literally throwing bowling balls to the walls - because nothing matters, you might get kicked but you can just join again and do the same.

And yes, your stuff is research but it is not applicable on this instance. If you can't see the difference between the two instances then there really isn't anything else to talk about.


Queue times are surely problem as a dps, no matter what content you play. You can still get kicked from LFR (specially on N'zoth).

You don't get the sense of progression in Normal N'zoth because it is expected that you know what to do (from LFR, or research). Now if there was no LFR and you made Normal mode groups for progressing, then you would have the same sense of progression.

Tanks and healers definitely get more out of LFR and dps (purely because tanks actually have to tank, and healers have to heal the dps that just stand in flames). Then again the same familiarity can be achieved from normal as well, it is mostly the mindset of people wanting everyone to know what to do (even in normal) because there is "LFR to learn" (and Dungeon journal, + all the stuff on web).

Either way its good to see people coming (back?) to raiding!

Ok why don't you actually read everything in my posts rather than picking and choosing. I mentioned LFG and how the majority of groups expect an ilvl higher than what drops in Normal or expect gold for a raid spot. People can't really start a group up when they've never seen the fights before. And if they mention that in their advertisement, absolutely nobody will join the group.

Your comment about Mythic is utterly irrelevant. I mentioned nothing about Mythic so don't put words in my mouth. And last I checked LFR requires you to queue for actual people so it's still multiplayer. Are you going to say Destiny 2 isn't an MMO purely because it has matchmaking?

It doesn't affect you lol. People queuing for LFR isn't going to affect your raid group. It literally has nothing to do with the raiding community as a whole. To say that it does is just dishonest. Your raid team isn't going to disband just because they see people doing LFR. So yeah. Leave LFR alone and stick to your raid groups. Let people play the game how they want since they're literally paying for it. You want WoW to utterly crash and burn? Then keep complaining about wanting LFR removed. The majority of the playerbase uses LFR and if you took it away from them, they'd just stop playing WoW and switch to a game like FF14. The devs know this and that's why it will never be removed and SHOULDN'T be removed.

[jackoff]

LFR teaches how to become lazy and leecher in raids, don't know how is it in bfa right now didn't bought it lol

[Clozer]

lfr is an awful experience compared to even pugging nhc.

If you are new and you start to do lfr you will find it awful(since it's awful) and you will never even try to do nhc.

Heck it worked before lfr as well. No one wanted lfr. No one said - god its so sad that im so bad that I cant fight the endboss. Most people who thought that, tried to become better and better until they could.

[mysticx]

lfr is an awful experience compared to even pugging nhc.

If you are new and you start to do lfr you will find it awful(since it's awful) and you will never even try to do nhc.

Heck it worked before lfr as well. No one wanted lfr. No one said - god its so sad that im so bad that I cant fight the endboss. Most people who thought that, tried to become better and better until they could.

Yeah, no.

While i agree LfR isn't a very... enriching experience, your other points are quite frankly wrong.

New players who want to get into raiding aren't really welcomed, they'll just get stonewalled because their raider.io score isn't high enough, then the newbies will just say "Forget it" and stop playing, looking for a game that they're "allowed" to play.

Also, people did not "Become better and better", they either did what they could (Farm 5-man heroics, mostly), or again, they left, the number of people who actually "Stepped up" and went into regular raiding was apparently so low that Blizz felt forced to add LfR to justify the resources poured into making your precious raids.

[TheRevenantHero]

I don't think there's much point arguing with him. He seems to ignore everything that doesn't support his inner narrative and just repeat "LFR is bad"-mantra. Waste of time arguing with someone like that.

Yeah I'm realizing it now but I'll keep responding because I know OTHER people will actually bother to read.

[Clozer]

Yeah, no.

While i agree LfR isn't a very... enriching experience, your other points are quite frankly wrong.

New players who want to get into raiding aren't really welcomed, they'll just get stonewalled because their raider.io score isn't high enough, then the newbies will just say "Forget it" and stop playing, looking for a game that they're "allowed" to play.

Also, people did not "Become better and better", they either did what they could (Farm 5-man heroics, mostly), or again, they left, the number of people who actually "Stepped up" and went into regular raiding was apparently so low that Blizz felt forced to add LfR to justify the resources poured into making your precious raids.

So the solution for people who don't want to raid is to offer them a not "very... enriching experience"? And removing any chance for those people to ever try nhc?

Sounds solid. That seems like a great point for me. Again it worked before lfr as well. People who really wanted to see the content - saw it. I did like 300 dps with my mage and yet I stand before Illidan like 2 weeks after I hit max level. If you wanna see nzoth right now go and join a stupid nhc raid and be carried to nzoth and have a shit ton of fun. That easy and simple.

[Eapoe]

Thats not exactly true, LFR being in the game hurts the raiding community.

If there was no LFR, people would have to go to normal (more normal raids) and some of those people would actually find guilds / be interested in raiding and thus get to higher level of it.

Instead taking a step into LFR only for it to be a shitshow makes people less inclined to try other difficulties - not to even mention the lack of forming bonds in LFR, say or ask something in chat and odds are you get booted out.
There are also arguments related to power creep, but LFR doesn't affect that a whole lot

LFR literally offers nothing but AFK character gearing to the game

Well, for one because I have played the game the whole time and I enjoy it. I'd just rather make the game better than an AFK gearbot farm.

This isn’t necessarily true, and also goes against what, I believe was Greg Street, stating that the opposite is true. Stating that when presented with the option of learning something to get better and get into organized content vs just not doing it, people would choose to just not do it.