Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Steelcryo]

I find it more amusing that the socials felt they were entitled to that gear on the same lvl as the main raiders who were boosting them. The way you described it, it sounds like a regular guild "fun/alt raid" usually done by raiding guilds on weekends. In these runs, the socials are never needed, they are there as a courtesy. They are "deadweight" that the raiders willingly carry, because socials are usually friends of somebody in the guild, or ex raiders themselves.

In every single guild I have ever been in, all gear that any mains still need, have obviously been handed to said mains without question. It's honestly mindboggling that there are guilds who would willingly roll for stuff that's an upgrade for their raiders, and even more mindboggling that there are socials out there who feel they should be allowed to roll on said gear against mains.¨


Of all the shitty arguments I have seen for the removal of ML, this has got to be one of the worst.

Actually, most the socials were ex raiders who no longer had interest in progression raiding or the time to invest in it. Most were more than capable of doing the raid and often there were more social members there than raiders, only occasionally was anyone carried. The whole point of the fun runs was to give raid gear to the social players. That was the entire reason we did it. So if that's the main point of doing the raid and was the agreed upon rules for loot, that's a pretty solid reason to remove ML. Take your elitist bullshit elsewhere, it has no place here

Either way you slice it the RL was either a tool or a dick then. If there were enough raiding mains getting realistic upgrades to matter they should have had a rule about raider pref and thus is an idiot (or the guild should have had it as a general rule). If there wasn't a realistic expectation of raiding mains getting ups and he did it anyway as you pointed out they're a dick.

Yup, he was just a dick. Even the GM who was also the main raider leader of the Mythic progression team was pissed about it because he specifically set up those raids for the social players to get gear. Like I said, most the raid team were annoyed despite it actually being a benefit for them, because it went against the point of the fun runs. Other than that guy, it was one of the friendliest and fairest groups of people I've ever seen in a guild.

[david0925]

It didnt "get him there". He stated that earlier.

Ok, let me rephrase.
He was there to get Residium. Based on his phrasing he either
1. failed to get enough to do a roll
2. got enough to do a roll, but failed to get an upgrade.

vs

The other guy, whom he has never played with, getting a for-sure upgrade.

The context to me is still almost the same: he joined a pug raid with a goal in mind (getting Residium), Residum-giving item dropped so he wants to keep it. I fail to see the issue here, even in terms of "ethics" or whatever word you prefer to use.

I also think it's within the RL's power to kick him even though I don't agree with his reasoning, because I think the OP's reasoning is fine.

[Kittahsmash]

OP did nothing wrong. People getting loot have absolutely no obligation to give that loot to somebody else who thinks they could use it, regardless of the reason.

It's literally as simple as that. People are perfectly fine thinking "hey that guy doesn't need that piece maybe he'll give it to me if I ask nicely"...but the "maybe" in that is the key word. Anybody who EXPECTS to be given loot that someone doesn't need is just being entitled. Ask nicely, and if they decline, that's the end of the discussion. Their reason for declining doesn't matter, they're the ones who get to decide what to do with it.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, refusing to trade an item because you want to scrap it is also a dick move, but less so when scrapping potential Azerite pieces was the only reason why you joined the raid in the first place...

It's really not. It's his loot, he can do whatever he wants with it. There's a reason Blizzard hasn't set the system up to automatically give that piece of gear to the lowest-geared person in the raid who could potentially use it (well, multiple reasons...the biggest of which is that would be a clusterfuck, but you should hopefully get why I mention it)

[Saltysquidoon]

You were in the right to keep your PL.

Hunter was in the right for initially asking if you needed it.

Raid leader was within his right to kick you.

Might be a sucky situation for all involved parties, but no one was really in the wrong.

They were fine to kick you. You were fine to keep your gear. This is a robust system working as intended.

No offence guys but I don't buy either of you would be fine with a RL kicking you for doing nothing wrong because his bosom buddy cracked the shits. I'd also like to think if the roles were reversed you wouldn't seriously consider kicking someone who had done nothing wrong just because your guildie dropped his spaghetti in a PuG.

It's really not. It's his loot, he can do whatever he wants with it. There's a reason Blizzard hasn't set the system up to automatically give that piece of gear to the lowest-geared person in the raid who could potentially use it (well, multiple reasons...the biggest of which is that would be a clusterfuck, but you should hopefully get why I mention it)

The pendulum swings both ways when it comes to the social contract.
He's not obligated to give up the loot but if he was only going to shard it or vendor it (i.e. it was not contributing to his player power) it would still be seen as a dick move.

Much the same way the RL has the power to kick the OP at anytime but kicking him without just cause would be seen as a dick move.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Actually, most the socials were ex raiders who no longer had interest in progression raiding or the time to invest in it. Most were more than capable of doing the raid and often there were more social members there than raiders, only occasionally was anyone carried. The whole point of the fun runs was to give raid gear to the social players. That was the entire reason we did it. So if that's the main point of doing the raid and was the agreed upon rules for loot, that's a pretty solid reason to remove ML. Take your elitist bullshit elsewhere, it has no place here



Yup, he was just a dick. Even the GM who was also the main raider leader of the Mythic progression team was pissed about it because he specifically set up those raids for the social players to get gear. Like I said, most the raid team were annoyed despite it actually being a benefit for them, because it went against the point of the fun runs. Other than that guy, it was one of the friendliest and fairest groups of people I've ever seen in a guild.

Still a dick move by any of the socials to make a scene when raiders were given prio on actual upgrades for mains. It's perfectly logical and was the way 99% of guilds dealt with loot in these kinds of runs before PL was added: Group loot for the majority of bosses, but ML with raider prio on the few bosses that still dropped upgrades for those 1-2 unlucky mains that never got their item.

If the socials were mostly ex-raiders, it's even more retarded, as they have been there themselves, and should understand why it's completely fair to give one or two rare items to mains over socials.

Also, rofl at the elitist comment. This is common sense, and have nothing to do with elitism. You disagreeing with something doesn't make it "elitism".

[qwerty123456]

Sorry but i dont understand, can you explain what you mean with this?

Also just to clarify, im not complaining about being kicked, i was just kinda irritated that most people seemed to agree that i am being selfish for wanting to keep my loot, the very loot (any random azerite piece for its scrap value) that i joined a hc pug in the first place. So i came here to look for more opinions.

Well you weren't in control of the raid so there's always a chance you can get booted for something. You gotta use common sense. The more "trouble" you stir the greater the chance you will get booted.

You could have easily said sure just wait till the end of the raid in case the hunter gets something better. Then just left or asked for a trade if he got something that wasn't an upgrade. Heck its possible you would have gotten more scrap had you done more bosses. Next time just tell them wait till the end as you have had bad experiences giving loot to someone in the middle of a raid.

[david0925]

No offence guys but I don't buy either of you would be fine with a RL kicking you for doing nothing wrong because his bosom buddy cracked the shits. I'd also like to think if the roles were reversed you wouldn't seriously consider kicking someone who had done nothing wrong just because your guildie dropped his spaghetti in a PuG.

If I were the raid leader, would tell him to deal with it (in a nice way) and not kick said person, but people i played with are not going to be crybabies about loots other people get off their PL in a pug.

There are no established rules on the ground on which the RL can and cannot kick a person, so he can kick you for finding out that you are 13/F/Cali and there's still nothing morally wrong about that.

[Stelio Kontos]

No offence guys but I don't buy either of you would be fine with a RL kicking you for doing nothing wrong because his bosom buddy cracked the shits. I'd also like to think if the roles were reversed you wouldn't seriously consider kicking someone who had done nothing wrong just because your guildie dropped his spaghetti in a PuG.

Doesn't matter, I said it might suck, but raid lead has utter authority over who stays in the raid, same way a player has the final say on if he gives away PL. Both have the right to do what they did, but that doesn't save them from consequences. In this case OP got the boot, in another case the raid lead could face consequences if half the guild quits in protest or something.

[opree]

Solution: In situations like this just don't loot the boss, collect it from your mailbox after the run. Avoids all the potential drama.

[Darththeo]

It ultimately still doesn't matter, him being a dick doesn't forfeit his loot to the beggar.

The question isn't "Should I have been required to do this?" the question is "Am I the bad guy?"

You can be a bad guy and still be in what is your right.

So, you are wrong.

[Motso]

I mean it might have been a slightly jerkish move but its not like the guy went out of his way to be polite about askin. I'd probably be annoyed at you too but you didn't actually do anything wrong. Defs didn't deserve a kick.

[Miyagie]

You could handle it better. Tell him to wait a bit, maybe another piece will drop and then give him the item or maybe he got a useless piece and you could trade them.
Or just say you need it offspec and done.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

OP did nothing wrong. People getting loot have absolutely no obligation to give that loot to somebody else who thinks they could use it, regardless of the reason.

It's literally as simple as that. People are perfectly fine thinking "hey that guy doesn't need that piece maybe he'll give it to me if I ask nicely"...but the "maybe" in that is the key word. Anybody who EXPECTS to be given loot that someone doesn't need is just being entitled. Ask nicely, and if they decline, that's the end of the discussion. Their reason for declining doesn't matter, they're the ones who get to decide what to do with it.

- - - Updated - - -



It's really not. It's his loot, he can do whatever he wants with it. There's a reason Blizzard hasn't set the system up to automatically give that piece of gear to the lowest-geared person in the raid who could potentially use it (well, multiple reasons...the biggest of which is that would be a clusterfuck, but you should hopefully get why I mention it)

Did you even read the comment you quoted? It's the EXACT same situation as the RL who kicked him.

Both had the POWER to kick / keep the item, but doing that would be the dick move in BOTH situations. The OP is "clean" in this particular sitatuon, because scrapping Azerite was the only reason why he joined the run in the first place. Make no mistake though, scrapping HC gear gives an extremely small amount of Residuum, and in any normal situation, the guy who wants to keep his items for vendor/DE/scrapping instead of giving it to somebody else in the raid who asks nicely, is a massive dick for doing so.

The gain you get from anything you can do with it, is so fucking minor that you are morally in the wrong for keeping it. Again, this is about a normal scenario, and not a raid where the OP joined only to be able to scrap potential Azerite pieces like in his example.

[Justpassing]

You had the right to keep your gear, with or without reason. They had the right to kick you, with or without reason. The system worked.

[FelPlague]

Salute o7

So to start things off im still fairly convinced that I am in fact not the bad guy, but considering 12 people just told me i am a dick and only 1 guy was on my side I feel like sharing my story, or ranting, you name it.

After missing my guilds hc raid this week and sitting at ~4600 titan residium i decided to join a hc nyalotha raid to try grab any azerite piece for its scrap value. (my char is currently sitting at ilvl 475 so i dont need anything else in there) Vexiona dropped her headpiece and immideatly afterwards i got whispered by a hunter if i was so kind to trade it to him, considering i allready have Carapace Loot and would most likely not need it.

I declined and got called out in raid chat for being a selfish dick. At that point i was like i was like "eh, is that guy serious?" but people were kinda quick to side with him. Arguments were being made for me to just wait for next reset because i was sure to receive enough residium to just be guaranteed to buy a piece of gear that only had a chance to be an upgrade while our groups hunter was guaranteed an upgrade (if i traded him).

I pretty much did not react in chat, only thing i typed was that the sole reason i joined the raid in the first place was for a few shots at 200 residium so i could try get an upgrade at the azerite vendor. (i failed at that btw, not that it would matter)

Either way, raid leader (being premade with the hunter) told me to either give the headpiece to his hunter friend or be kicked. Told him that i still dont see a reason to to do so and got shafted. After being kicked one pala heal whispered me saying he would not even have a problem if i decided to keep the item for transmog purposes.

What are your thoughts? The group i joined were mostly randoms (4 guys from one guild) and still seemed to agree that i was being selfish.

Edit: a few things that people keep asking

1st: I did not know any of these people nor did i get informed about any loot rules or special purpose of the raid (like trying to catch up people that a behind on gear)

2nd: the exact echange between the hunter and me was the following: (sadly cant link a screenshot here yet because i have not posted enough)

Hu: need head mate ?
Me: i do, sry
Hu: you have 475
Hu: how the fuck you need a 460 head ?
Me: i need it to buy an azerite piece which is exactly the reason i joined this raid i nthe first place
Hu: so you needed 200 fucking residuum
Hu: lol
Hu: ok

3rd: I did not initially pick this one up because frankly i did not matter to me, the hunter did fine for his gear, though he was the weakest DPS, and yes, he would have profited from the upgrade. DPS numbers where:

Hunter A: 113k
Me: 109k
Mage: 91k
Rogue: 89k
DH: 71k
4 random people: 62k-60k
Hunter (the one this post is about): 56k

ok im gunna be honest here.
yes you are a dick
is that a bad thing? no not really?

so let me explain why

Reasons your a dick
that 200 residium, is just 200 residium to you
to him that is a peice of gear he may never replace
its the same as "well for me its a minor upgrade" "Well for me its my BIS" and "Well this will get me the last shard i need for my enchant" "This is my BIS"
So yes that is a dick move, bassicly disenchanting something someone could use.
your also a dick for comparing dps, some people just arnt as good at the game, and some well dont have the time to commit, or the gear to compare.
it is kinda common courtesy to give away items you dont need

HOWEVER - Reasons your not
It is your item, it is personal loot, so if you wernt there, that item wouldnt have dropped, so no matter what, he would not have gotten that item, you would have gotten it, or you wernt there, people seem to think there is a set amount of drops, not really, each person added increases that drop pool by 20%, so if you wernt there, then that extra item would not have dropped, and you would not have gotten it.
people are not entitled to your items, i have turned down asks for items simply because i want the transmog apperance, or its a VERY minor upgrade, or cause all it has is indestructable (if its a weapon) or leech or something over my current weapon. usually i keep an eye on people and how they are acting during the run, and how they act when i get the item, how they ask, and with that i weigh the results. "Did they ask if they could please have it if i dont need it" or "did they ask hey i need that item can i have it?" do they need it for mainspec/offpsec? is it a HUGE upgrade for them? these are all things i ask myself before saying yes.
you did need thei tem, just not for its intended purpose



overall yes you were a dick, but no that is not a bad thing. telling someone they look fat in something, or that thing they made looks bad, its a dick, but its not inherently bad.

also not gunna lie, ive kept items for transmog, and if people are dicks about me not giving items i will say "I need them for offspec sorry"
If people are dicks about it even less reason for me to give it up. if they go "hey man its kinda not cool giving up the item to someone who needs it, whatever though your item" i will sometimes give it up, but if their a dick nah.

they were bigger dicks by suspecting you would carry them with dps, and also give them gear. and then kicking you for not giving them gear.

[Saltysquidoon]

Doesn't matter, I said it might suck, but raid lead has utter authority over who stays in the raid, same way a player has the final say on if he gives away PL. Both have the right to do what they did, but that doesn't save them from consequences. In this case OP got the boot, in another case the raid lead could face consequences if half the guild quits in protest or something.

Yeah but that was the point of my post... That there is a difference between what is technically possible and what is socially acceptable (even in wow, even in the post 'sever community' era). And for all we know it caused a massive shitfight and the raid collapsed or they finished the clear without incident.

I'm just saying if it had been you in either situation I'd doubt you'd just be like "that is the technical limitations of the virtual simulation we are participating in" like a borg drone.

There are no established rules on the ground on which the RL can and cannot kick a person, so he can kick you for finding out that you are 13/F/Cali and there's still nothing morally wrong about that.

See above. What is technically allowed and what is socially acceptable are different things. What if the RL kicked anyone who wasn't female or who wasn't Asian or wasn't lefthanded. They're technically allowed to do it (I never argued they weren't) but if you were in that raid would you think more or less of the RL as a result?

[Stelio Kontos]

Yeah but that was the point of my post... That there is a difference between what is technically possible and what is socially acceptable (even in wow, even in the post 'sever community' era). And for all we know it caused a massive shitfight and the raid collapsed or they finished the clear without incident.

I'm just saying if it had been you in either situation I'd doubt you'd just be like "that is the technical limitations of the virtual simulation we are participating in" like a borg drone.


See above. What is technically allowed and what is socially acceptable are different things. What if the RL kicked anyone who wasn't female or who wasn't Asian or wasn't lefthanded. They're technically allowed to do it (I never argued they weren't) but if you were in that raid would you think more or less of the RL as a result?

I have been kicked and I have done the kicking, justification is always a subjective affair. I'm just saying everyone exercised their right, we might disagree with one or more parties, but that doesn't change the fact that no one did anything "wrong".

[Craaazyyy]

He had the power to kick him. He did not have the right to, and was certainly a massive dick for doing so.

Yeah, refusing to trade an item because you want to scrap it is also a dick move, but less so when scrapping potential Azerite pieces was the only reason why you joined the raid in the first place...

well same with him not sharing the loot that he doesn't really need

[Saltysquidoon]

I have been kicked and I have done the kicking, justification is always a subjective affair. I'm just saying everyone exercised their right, we might disagree with one or more parties, but that doesn't change the fact that no one did anything "wrong".

Come on man you know that's a cop out.

There is a universe of difference between kicking someone who comes to the raid naked or FDs every pull so they can afk and kicking someone because they hurt your mate's fefes.

[Craaazyyy]

He had the power to kick him. He did not have the right to, and was certainly a massive dick for doing so.

Yeah, refusing to trade an item because you want to scrap it is also a dick move, but less so when scrapping potential Azerite pieces was the only reason why you joined the raid in the first place...

well same with him not sharing the loot that he doesn't really need, they shouldn't care about reasons why he joined.. they didn't say anything about loot rules, he didn't say anything about why he even joined