Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Natta Lmo]

Ho Chi Minh and the Việt Minh would beg to fucking differ.

lol... look to myanmar what happens when u use violence and u are not on the winning side...

[Inuyaki]

lol... look to myanmar what happens when u use violence and u are not on the winning side...

Counter-argument:
Look to Germany in the 40s, if you don't protest and are not on the "winning" side.
Seriously, you always find examples where stuff didn't work.

[Natta Lmo]

Counter-argument:
Look to Germany in the 40s, if you don't protest and are not on the "winning" side.
Seriously, you always find examples where stuff didn't work.

that was war... what is happening in myanmar isn't war... its them getting rid of those who used violence against them...

[Inuyaki]

that was war... what is happening in myanmar isn't war... its them getting rid of those who used violence against them...

What? Judenverfolgung had NOTHING to do with war.

[Elegiac]

Ah, of course. Pepper spray, napalm. What's the difference right?

Both are considered chemical weapons under international law, so - that's a good question.

I am sure the outcome of Minneapolis is going to be that everyone magically turns not racist. Nothing has quite ever said "let's love each other" like a Molotov Cocktail to your face.

Strawman.

All I see from where I am sitting from

That you admit there is distance is an admission of privilege that you haven't yet grappled with. Sit down.

Next racist cop will kill another black dude within the next 12 months, I promise.

Exactly what is your solution, then, oh wise person living in a country that totally didn't require practically being burned down and rebuilt by foreign powers before it was able to actually internalise living with a minority most of whom it ended up exterminating or who left anyway?

The correct answer would be a discussion on how the lessons of denazification might be employed to heal the rift that is still present in the US after the Civil War, but nah.

Let's bitch about a Wendy's getting firebombed.

[Santti]

Ah, of course. Pepper spray, napalm. What's the difference right?

I am sure the outcome of Minneapolis is going to be that everyone magically turns not racist. Nothing has quite ever said "let's love each other" like a Molotov Cocktail to your face.

All I see from where I am sitting from is yet another short circuit reaction from US citizens. It doesn't matter if I can understand the anger or not. This will change nothing, like nothing changed from all the other times before. Your problems are rooted so deep in your society that this won't even scratch the surface.

Next racist cop will kill another black dude within the 12 months, I promise.

You are probably right. Chances are, nothing will change. But what are they to do? Shit like this is going to make people's blood boil, and rightfully so. Peaceful protests have been done, and they are always ignored or worse, condemned. Like the kneeling during the National Anthem.

[Natta Lmo]

Both are considered chemical weapons under international law, so - that's a good question.



Strawman.



That you admit there is distance is an admission of privilege that you haven't yet grappled with. Sit down.



Exactly what is your solution, then, oh wise person living in a country that totally didn't require practically being burned down and rebuilt by foreign powers before it was able to actually internalise living with a minority most of whom it ended up exterminating anyway?

The correct answer would be a discussion on how the lessons of denazification might be employed to heal the rift that is still present in the US after the Civil War, but nah.

Let's bitch about a Wendy's getting firebombed.

lol... he's not even german... he's from croatia...

[Elegiac]

Who did the shop keepers oppress? Who were the black business owners oppressing? How will destroying their lives get rid of said oppression? Why will it work this time when it didn't work before? The violence isn't being directed solely at the ones doing the oppression. That is the problem with mindless violence. When it gets to a riot stage, it becomes mindless violence, and even if it does end up being a catalyst for an overall positive change, harming innocent people in the chase for justice doesn't put you in the right, do the innocents harmed in this pursuit of justice have any right to demand justice for them?

White people have been given 400 years to get their shit sorted in America and you're expecting black people to do the same in less than 80, huh?

Hint: Pearl clutching, even a small amount of it, in regards to this situation, saying that "I don't understand why X" means you are admitting you are ignorant about the issues.

You are creating a contest where people have to choose between public order or black welfare with such statements despite history, despite every bit of statistical evidence as to why people are upset.

Sit down.

[Inuyaki]

lol... he's not even german... he's from some central european country...

Frankfurt is in Germany.
Just saying...
We even have 2 Frankfurts, Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder.

[Natta Lmo]

Frankfurt is in Germany.
Just saying...
We even have 2 Frankfurts, Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder.

he's croatian...

[Inuyaki]

he's croatian...

And Elegiac said clearly:

oh wise person living in a country

[Orange Joe]

That's a bad reason.

cops killing innocent people is a bad reason?

[StayTuned]

Both are considered chemical weapons under international law, so - that's a good question.



Strawman.



That you admit there is distance is an admission of privilege that you haven't yet grappled with. Sit down.



Exactly what is your solution, then, oh wise person living in a country that totally didn't require practically being burned down and rebuilt by foreign powers before it was able to actually internalise living with a minority most of whom it ended up exterminating or who left anyway?

The correct answer would be a discussion on how the lessons of denazification might be employed to heal the rift that is still present in the US after the Civil War, but nah.

Let's bitch about a Wendy's getting firebombed.

Did you just assume my ethnicity based on the city I'm living in? That is quite shitlordy of you.

Also, strawman for what? We're not exactly in an argument over any specific point by now, I'm just throwing stuff at you.

The distance is also a physical one, literally. I don't need to be told to sit down by some extemist edgelord who cannot distinguish some from all. Stop pretending to be a victim of anything. You're sitting at your desk posting on a forum (with, mind you, 40k posts), you're no victim of anything. Talk about some privilege, what the fuck man. Grow up


As to my solution, education and probably 2 or 3 more generations. That should suffice, unless someone decides to burn it all to ashes before.

[Levelfive]

I don't know how to feel about the riots. On the one hand, it is self destructive, destroying communities and the livelihoods of people within them. However the anger is very real and legitimate. It has two aspects to it. The first should concern everyone. Regardless of race, do you want to live in a society where an officer of the law can murder someone in the street who is restrained? If I can ignore the racial element for a second, if you look at that and think "it is just a black man" or "it is just a criminal", then you are also saying "it is ok if it happens to me or something I care about", the world isn't as neat as "cops just kill people I don't like", if you find it acceptable to murder someone you don't like (and lets be clear, this wasn't a preservation of life scenario, there was simply no need for this to have happened), it rings hollow if you then protest and object if it happens to someone you do care about. Calling out and being against this type of behaviour from the police is also an appeal that they don't do it to you.

The second aspect is clearly the racial element which can't be ignored. The image of white cops killing black men has been around for so long in the US. No matter what progress might be made in places, when stuff like this happens, it undoes all of that progress and reinforces the idea that black men (I emphasise black men, to the best of my knowledge even in the days of slavery, the racists weren't as murderous towards black women, though that doesn't mean to say that they weren't cruel or never killed them) need to fear for their lives when interacting with the police. It isn't healthy for society as a whole, nevermind communities within that society to be this fearful of the police, and lets not beat about the bush, there is a real and legitimate grievance here that can't be ignored.

It begs the question, and if I am being ignorant here please enlighten me, I maybe haven't followed this as closely as I could have, but would the murder charges have been brought without the riots? It shouldn't take actions like that for the process of justice to be started. Whilst I can't condone it, and it will be interesting to see what all groups are involved, there are certainly types who see a case like this and think "YES!" as it gives them an excuse to wreck things, it is very difficult to not have sympathy with the underlying anger that has sparked it. I would have been interested to see what had happened if the instant this crime came to light, instead of just sacking the officers, they were arrested and charged aka what they should have done in the first place.

Will this be a catalyst for change? Who knows, but I doubt it. This isn't the first case of its kind, I can't imagine it will be the last. And ultimately anger makes it easy for hatred to breed. And no matter how justified the anger is, when hatred starts to spread, it becomes everyone's problem and can make a movement toxic, which I don't want to see. Civil rights groups have been fighting hatred for centuries, the most impactful ones tended to be the ones that didn't fight fire with fire. How many black businesses were destroyed by these riots? How many innocent people have had their lives upended by this? Does injustice validate visiting injustice on innocent people? I remember watching a documentary on Netflix about the LA riots, and there was a middle aged black man on the street begging looters to stay out of his shop, he built it up, it was his life, and the crowds were just pouring out with his stock, not caring one bit, people of all races, ignorant to his cries. Ruining his life was not justice for Rodney King, it didn't stick it to the LAPD and it certainly didn't put an end to police brutality, it was just senseless. And it isn't racist, or advancing white supremacy to take issue with this, or to feel sympathy with innocent people having their lives ruined as a result of rioting, no matter how legitimate the anger that sparked the riots.

I fear for people who might have been made to suffer a similar fate. That is why I am torn with this. On the one hand I cannot accept that the answer to injustice and suffering is injustice and suffering of innocent people, I just have to believe that there is another way. On the other, if authorities only take you seriously when you resort to extreme measures, and your grievances are legitimate...I can't help but have some degree of sympathy, what do you do to enact change and to chase justice if the authorities aren't moved by mere words? I just wish the anger could have been better directed.

I appreciate your thoughtful post. My feeling is that it has literally been 500 years between when slaves were first brought to this country and the day that cop knelt on a human being's neck, while he pleaded for air and called out for his dead mother, while other cops watched and also knelt on his already prone and handcuffed body, until he died in the street, and then still for some minutes after. In my head, I multiply that by 500 years of countless souls suffering horrific forms of murder, torture, and rape at white people's hands, white people who built "justice" systems that legalized it, blessed it, or looked away. In one form another, white people have perpetrated it, countenanced it, codified it, excused it, ignored it, and rationalized it. For 500 years, we've done almost nothing about it, even though we knew exactly what was going on. We've been complicit in it, and in perpetuating it; we've expected black people accept it quietly, to bury their murdered loved ones without inconveniencing us by protesting about it, by kneeling at sporting events, or blocking traffic, or talking about it at awards shows. So now that yet another straw has broken yet another camel's back, I don't think we have any kind of moral authority to now weigh in with our thoughts on how they could protest better and more fairly or considerately, or whether it's appropriate or "effective," or bemoan that it isn't "peaceful." I think this might be a good time for us to shut the fuck up about our input on how they should more properly protest what we have done to them.

[Katie N]

cops killing innocent people is a bad reason?

Yes, it's a bad reason to riot. It won't solve anything.

[Natta Lmo]

I think this might be a good time for us to shut the fuck up about our input on how they should more properly protest what we have done to them.

lol... u havent done anything to them... unless u are someone who has...

[Elegiac]

Did you just assume my ethnicity based on the city I'm living in?

No. I said "person living in a country" i.e. Germany.

I see white fragility extends there, though.

Also, strawman for what? We're not exactly in an argument over any specific point by now, I'm just throwing stuff at you.

Exactly. You're setting up arguments that were never stated and then attacking them as if other people have done so.

That is a strawman, Karen.

The distance is also a physical one, literally. I don't need to be told to sit down by some extemist edgelord who cannot distinguish some from all. Stop pretending to be a victim of anything. You're sitting at your desk posting on a forum (with, mind you, 40k posts), you're no victim of anything. Talk about some privilege, what the fuck man. Grow up.

Wow, it's almost as if I've repeatedly stated that I live in a privileged position and have come to terms with the fact I benefit from a fundamentally racist system that favors me over any black person.

I hate that, as any sane person should.

As to my solution, education and probably 2 or 3 more generations. That should suffice, unless someone decides to burn it all to ashes before.

Not familiar with Reconstruction are you, lol.

[Inuyaki]

Yes, it's a bad reason to riot. It won't solve anything.

So basically you are saying they should just let it be and don't care about getting killed by the police.
That's fascism... Just saying

[Katie N]

So basically you are saying they should just let it be and don't care about getting killed by the police.
That's fascism... Just saying

You need to educate yourself on what fascism is.

[Orange Joe]

Yes, it's a bad reason to riot. It won't solve anything.

Other options didn't solve anything either. And we will have to agree to disagree. The government killing it's own innocent citizens is very much a reason to fight against them.