Post-BFA/SL Future of the Forsaken?

[Nagawithlegs]

Let's assume that Sylvanas and Nathanos, whatever happens to them, won't be returning to Azeroth or the Forsaken (and thus making their abandonment of the Horde impactful and last for longer than two years).

What's going to happen with the Forsaken?

Calia's involvement hasn't been shown to extend to the Forsaken as of 8.3: while she absolutely could lead them moving forward (something something Lordaeron) she is only seen taking in the Undead Night Elves, and it goes against Ion's one comment on her that she isn't Horde. Voss is the ambassador of the Forsaken on the Horde council but other than her there are only a few notable Forsaken left that are friendly, and even less that are actually the "Undead" race (what is it, Voss, the Apothecary and Belmont? we don't even know who is sticking with the Horde besides Voss)

Maldraxxus seems to be a hint on where they could be going (Scourge aesthetics but friendly and apparently noble) but they could always use Calia (and Derek) to give them a new makeover. Will they keep the purple Tim Burton aesthetics and Sylvanas-themed flag? Will they still have blight everywhere? Or will they lean onto the Maldraxxus aesthetics or the Lordaeron aesthetics?

Alternatively they could be basically ignored forever here on out but from Ion's comments that doesn't seem to be the case. Interested in all your thoughts and replies that are akin to things like "the Forsaken should all be put into a rocket and shot into space".

[Koryn123]

I wanna see the Forsaken move into eastern plaguelands using the Argent Crusade as a buffer zone between them and the Alliance, possibly moving into Stratholme as their new capital in Lordaeron while they also maintain a pretty strong presence in Silverpine at the Sepulcher and Shadowfang Keep.

[Saltysquidoon]

You'll be fighting tirelessly to protect the living under Calia or a nontoxic equitable council of completely fleshy forsaken (colloquially called the NBZ or no bone zone).

[Nagawithlegs]

You'll be fighting tirelessly to protect the living under Calia or a nontoxic equitable council of completely fleshy forsaken (colloquially called the NBZ or no bone zone).

You saying they're BONELESS?

[Varodoc]

Though they have committed terrible crimes under the evil regime of Sylvanas, I am sure Calia Menethil and Voss will set them on the path of redemption, so you've got that to look forward to.

[Razion]

Voss and Belmont are cool. They're basically already running things. May be best to keep letting them do that.

Amalia Stone works well with Voss, so her being around more would probably be good if Voss is going to stay prominent.

Kind of too bad Thomas Zelling is dead, he would've made a good advisor but he probably wouldn't have made any good of a leader.

Alexi Barov is a powerful noble with a lot of old land and wealth, so on a civilian level he could have some level of authority even if he might make a flawed leader.

Leonid Barthalomew the Revered or Alonsus Faol may make good leaders, but they're kind of tied to the other orders. Not that other leaders aren't tied to other orders.

Nathanos would've been a perfect choice if he hadn't changed or we got the original one back. Community seems to hate him when he's involved with Sylvannas and too successful or getting too much focus. While I personally like Nathanos and all his sass, I'd probably concede he'd need to kind of go back to normalcy (Forsaken, not the center of attention, not overpowered) if he's ever going to be well received by others again.

[Powerogue]

I get the feeling the long term issue of their survival will be managed by picking off from the lingering scourge for the forseeable future that we manage to at least contain to Icecrown. Boom, no more need to conquer and destroy to replenish ranks.

Calia will be involved, and I do think that she'll wind up the leader by the end at this point (they had a line where Voss specifically turned down the opportunity) but I think it will be a path paved by drama and strife, and Calia needs to learn the full extent of the history of not just them as Lordaeron citizens, but as forsaken and what they've been through after death.

If I had to guess there will be something of a civil war but her subfaction will ultimately come out on top and she'll be the forsaken racial leader, possibly heading some sort of Desolate Council V2 featuring other more well known characters like Voss and Belmont. I don't think we're getting lightforged forsaken as an allied race.

I could be wrong about everything, they could kill Calia off for all I know. But I'm eager to see where it goes. They've shown with characters like Derek and Zelling that they still know the abandonment issues of the forsaken are integral to them being interesting characters. I don't see them becoming bland "just goody-two-shoes dead humans" despite some people's paranoia.

[Rendark]

Nothing good will happen with them. Whatever they do it will be super lame. The fact that Calia is even a thing shows the writers hate the Forsaken and can't write anything morally ambiguous.

[Nagawithlegs]

Nothing good will happen with them. Whatever they do it will be super lame. The fact that Calia is even a thing shows the writers hate the Forsaken and can't write anything morally ambiguous.

I'm pretty sure most people think they are "super lame" as long as they are separated from Sylvanas.

[Minikin]

You saying they're BONELESS?

Don't be embarrassed. Surveys have reported that nearly 3 out of every 5 forsaken have this problem.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'm pretty sure most people think they are "super lame" as long as they are separated from Sylvanas.

Don't worry man, there's still plenty of living to strive tirelessly protect.

[Super Dickmann]

The nu-Forsaken should all be put into a holy rocket and shot into space.

That aside, Maldraxxus only really has the elements of mad science and the necromancy in common with the Forsaken. The aesthetic is far more Scourge and with the exception of Undercity, which is salvaged from the Scourge, the Forsaken have an entirely different art style. Ditto, Maldraxxus's more survival of the fittest vibes overlap more with orcs than they do with the Forsaken, though I'll withhold judgment until we know more.

There was a version of BFA where Calia had already been inserted into the Forsaken, but be it due to time and budget constraints (more likely), or the fact that most if not all of Shadowlands will be happening in another realm they've delayed that particular death blow for a bit later. It's still definitely happening, the new race description wasn't a mistake, just a case of them showing their hand too fast, like the initial Brennadam orders or the pre-complaining 8.1 Saurfang quest.

@Minikin

It's nothing some surgery and a donation from the living can't fix. For a while anyway, then you need to restock.

[Rendark]

I'm pretty sure most people think they are "super lame" as long as they are separated from Sylvanas.

Getting rid of Sylvanas is fine but since they fucked up her character, didn't set up anyone good to take her place and turned the Forsaken from dark to care bears its now fucked.

[Super Dickmann]

Removing Sylvanas from the Forsaken was always going to be a tall order, but while the absolutely hamhanded way it was done, with next to no narrative focus on the Forsaken in favor of the Sadfang Variety Hour is problematic and her removal was a mistake, the real issue comes down to the BTS retcons. Once undeath is no longer a curse and has no effects except visual ones, once rejection by the living is a one-way street caused by deception and neither the Light, the human kingdoms or their former loved ones have actually 'forsaken' the race called the Forsaken then nothing short of a counter-retcon can fix it.

Ditto once the narrative framework treats 15 years of lore and their very faction affiliation as aberrant and only their identity as living civilians of Generic Fantasy Kingdom #27290 as being the true one, because in doing so their relationship with the Horde becomes out of place - not in an in-story conflict generating fashion as it did before, but from a thematic standpoint.

[Firefall]

Once undeath is no longer a curse and has no effects except visual ones, once rejection by the living is a one-way street caused by deception and neither the Light, the human kingdoms or their former loved ones have actually 'forsaken' the race called the Forsaken then nothing short of a counter-retcon can fix it.

When did any of the downsides of Undeath get retconned? I'm pretty darn sure there is still the constant struggle to remain a mindful undead, pain from Light magics, greatly lessened positive emotions and amplified negative ones, lack of ability to release apparently still existent sexual frustration or reproduce, ect ect.

[Super Dickmann]

When did any of the downsides of Undeath get retconned? I'm pretty darn sure there is still the constant struggle to remain a mindful undead, pain from Light magics, greatly lessened positive emotions and amplified negative ones, lack of ability to release apparently still existent sexual frustration or reproduce, ect ect.

There being holy undead at all is of course retarded, but the existence of Alonsus Faol is the issue. Faol isn't a special naaru zombie like Calia, but he can use the Light with zero apparent downsides despite the soul-body divide that should make using it agonizing according to CDev and prior lore. Ditto, the exaggerated and reduced positive emotions are shown in BTS to be caused by social factors, namely Sylvanas's police state. Left to their own devices, the undead can reconnect with their living family within two hours with zero apparent issue. Elsie pretty much says directly that those majorly changed are an extreme minority. Before BTS, all you said was a given and the default.

Kudos for the reference to the mindless state though, it's been way too long since Blizzard acknowledged that one.

[Firefall]

There being holy undead at all is of course retarded, but the existence of Alonsus Faol is the issue. Faol isn't a special naaru zombie like Calia, but he can use the Light with zero apparent downsides despite the soul-body divide that should make using it agonizing according to CDev and prior lore. Ditto, the exaggerated and reduced positive emotions are shown in BTS to be caused by social factors, namely Sylvanas's police state. Left to their own devices, the undead can reconnect with their living family within two hours with zero apparent issue. Elsie pretty much says directly that those majorly changed are an extreme minority. Before BTS, all you said was a given and the default.

Kudos for the reference to the mindless state though, it's been way too long since Blizzard acknowledged that one.

Thanks, I was genuinely asking where this statement was coming from. I haven't read BTS, just a synopsis or three. I think you're catastrophising a little too much though?

On emotion: I've always been under the impression that Forsaken do have the capacity for emotions like love, enjoyment, ect, but that they are really tsundere about love and kinda sarcastic and sadistic about happiness. Vanilla quests like https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=26...ath-do-us-part have you doing something that would only make sense if there was still some emotion and feeling there, or they'd just throw the necklace away, not want it given back to his grave. It's usually filtered by some sort of negativity but not always--there's also a vanilla wow example of familial love from a brother to a sister directly shown by a forsaken without any negative filtering in https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=5050/good-luck-charm , and then later romamtic love by the sister (a ghost, so not the same but still undead). The Forsaken aren't shown jumping up and down with laughs and glee in BTS as far as I know, just some of them are interested in continuing to rekindle their previous relationships in-line with things we've seen in-game as early as vanilla.

On pain from holy magic: Many "generation 1" undead are masochistic/stubborn with incredible will power and stuck to using the Light and not the forgotten shadow. That has been established for a really long time. So just using the Light isn't a problem and matches existing lore especially for someone very devoted. I can't find anything directly saying that Faol doesn't feel discomfort or pain. Do you have a direct source?


On the thread's OP discussion:
Thank you, I really like the whole mindfulness/mindlessness struggle of Forsaken. I've always understood it as having two components--the Lich King exerting control, and the existential horror of their existence. One way that I could see moving the story of the Forsaken forward in Shadowlands could be if Blizzard decides that destroying the helm of domination is enough to purge them of that aspect of the curse, the same way it causes the mindless undead to rampage without control of the Lich King. It would be interesting because in a way Sylvanas would then have done what she pledged to do--killed not only Arthas but the Lich King, the thing that controls Undead--and garner a lot more support from the Forsaken. But it seems like in Shadowlands reforming the helm could be a major goal, so it would put the Forsaken in a very interesting place if doing so would then again put them back into the same struggle. A sort of heroic sacrifice by helping that could keep them as the edgy metalheads they've been since Vanilla while not taking a 180 degree turn from the more heroic course they've been on.

And then like Calia could be used as a moral crisis escape route as Blizzard is prone to do by offering to Lightforge undead who wish it, giving them similar benefits of the helms destruction, and letting Blizzard sell race changes for Lightforged Undead allied race to the people that want them :P

[Super Dickmann]

Thanks, I was genuinely asking where this statement was coming from. I haven't read BTS, just a synopsis or three. I think you're catastrophising a little too much though?

No. The amount of damage one book that didn't feature a single major established Forsaken character except Sylvanas and Nathanos, who's combined page time was less than that of the goblin-gnome interracial love story about a substance that ended up irrelevant, is almost jawdropping.

On emotion: I've always been under the impression that Forsaken do have the capacity for emotions like love, enjoyment, ect, but that they are really tsundere about love and kinda sarcastic and sadistic about happiness. Vanilla quests like https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=26...ath-do-us-part have you doing something that would only make sense if there was still some emotion and feeling there, or they'd just throw the necklace away, not want it given back to his grave. It's usually filtered by some sort of negativity but not always--there's also a vanilla wow example of familial love from a brother to a sister directly shown by a forsaken without any negative filtering in https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=5050/good-luck-charm , and then later romamtic love by the sister (a ghost, so not the same but still undead). The Forsaken aren't shown jumping up and down with laughs and glee in BTS as far as I know, just some of them are interested in continuing to rekindle their previous relationships in-line with things we've seen in-game as early as vanilla.

Oh, the Forsaken aren't one-note robots who don't understand love or positive relationships. I've linked that first quest more than a few times myself to get that across. It's more that these emotions have changed in them. They don't appreciate them in quite the same way. Even recent lore shows this sometimes, like how Nathanos and Sylvanas' relationship is cast in terms of their utility to one another and they dance around the subject like wallflowers on prom night. It's also good to note that in the second case, Janice is also dead and this is more a moving on than a rekindling of a relationship. Being constantly sad and morose isn't really a feature of the Forsaken, but the rekindling of their previous bonds in the exact fashion that they were before was never an option prior to this point, both because of the split between living and dead emotionally and because of the changes they'd gone through. Their reclamation of their identity - be it in an overall national sense like in Cataclysm with Lordaeron, or the Felstones and Barovs still exercising the deeds and ownership of their land is always altered by undeath. BTS plays on any alteration of their identity being somehow false and indeed pretends that these connections don't exist - Forsaken therein are encouraged to change their names, connection to Lordaeron and their past lives are expressly forbidden and allegedly have been since Vanilla, and there is no twist to them readopting their identity and positive self-image. It's as easy as adopting the traits they had before. The Forsaken aren't shown jumping up and down in joy not because they don't want to but because they live in a ridiculous police state where no fun is allowed.

On pain from holy magic: Many "generation 1" undead are masochistic/stubborn with incredible will power and stuck to using the Light and not the forgotten shadow. That has been established for a really long time. So just using the Light isn't a problem and matches existing lore especially for someone very devoted. I can't find anything directly saying that Faol doesn't feel discomfort or pain. Do you have a direct source?

The former is true, though badly unexplored in game since we barely see any Forsaken holy priests. The masochism/self-sacrifice angle in that use of the Light also causes pain to the Forsaken since it's reconnecting with life and that there's still people who're stubborn or faithful enough to do it anyway, or just masochistic enough to want any connection with what they've lost that they'll do it is what makes that relationship meaningful. Such is not the case with Faol. There is not one reference to him experiencing any kind of struggle. He could be experiencing it in the same way his faith could be a byproduct of an obsessive stamp collection and either would have as much back-up in the lore.

[Soon-TM]

You'll be fighting tirelessly to protect the living under Calia or a nontoxic equitable council of completely fleshy forsaken (colloquially called the NBZ or no bone zone).

LOLOLOLOLOLOL that was epic m8, you made me spit my coffee, best answer ever

But yeah, Calia and her rotting !@#$toy are taking over everything Forsaken. If the rumoured 10.0 world revamp comes to be true, Deathknell will be probably featuring lots of rainbows, shiny glades and cute rabbits

[Flurryfang]

Well, i think we can see what will happen with the forsaken, by looking at a race, that has experienced the same loss of a leader: The Darkspear tribe.

So, what will happen? Nothing. The Forsaken will be without a real leader for years and years, and they will be in a stasis situation, where nothing really happens within their own ranks for ages and ages.

.....Okay, on a more positive note, i hope that we will see the Forsaken embrace the idea of being the stewards of undeath. With many creatures of undeath in the world, the Forsaken can be the safe haven for people, who are living a 2nd life, whether it is from the scourge plaque, the forsaken valkyr, Calia's "holy" undeath or something completly different.

Since Sylvanas's color was Purple, i could see them take on a red or green color, maybe even go into the light method of grey/light blue. I would love to see the Forsaken just get a complete make-over, just to show that they are throwing away the past of Sylvanas.