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  1. #181
    Dreadlord the0o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    I like some of this, I wouldn't hate having a reason to do LFR on alts, but I wanted to address the ups and downs of a few things:

    1. Proving Grounds 2: Useless Boogaloo

    Blizzard tried this with Heroic Dungeons in Warlords. In an effort to try to bridge the gap between the rather severely punishing Cata 5-mans at launch, and the dreadfully easy Mists 5-mans, they tuned the dungeons (slightly) harder than Mists, and enforced a Silver Proving Grounds requirement to queue. The problem was that, as players often do, people simply took the path of least resistance, and learned the muscle memory of the buttons they needed to push, but never *cared* to learn why they were pushing those buttons.

    2. Raider Bait

    I really don't think this is a good idea, nor would it accomplish what you hope. Trying to drag players from an "unintended" audience into content they don't want to do to begin with is a good way to introduce a toxic environment right from the get-go. Having a portion of the raid being there because they're forced to to stay competitive, rather than because they want to be there is only going to cause issues from moment one.

    3. LFR.io

    I've actually been a supporter of some kind of well, exactly what you mentioned in the OP. I actually have spoken to a lot of players in LFR, interviewing folks who frequently run it in an effort to see how something like this would work. As expected, the response was somewhat mixed across a spectrum from "Blizzard: Hire this guy" to "Take a Hike". I learned a few things that I think need to be kept in mind when designing any such system.

    1) It's hard to assign blame for some mechanics failing. Most common example would be: Player A gets a bomb -> Player A runs away, finds a safe place, and plants themselves there. -> Players B, C, and D all panic with some other thing happening, or just aren't paying enough attention and walk into Player A's Ring. The system would almost need some AI involved to be able to learn what is happening and assign fault. In this case, Player A probably shouldn't have their score paused when they player properly. Such an AI afaik, has not quite been applied to an MMR-esque rating like this.

    1.5) In the same vein, superfluously awarding points might not be a great idea, especially for soak mechanics. Again, let's say Mechanic 1 deals 3000 damage to anyone in the circle, or 3000 to the whole raid if nobody gets hit. This damage isn't split. Now, everyone, hungry to get their loot points is going to dogpile into the circle, resulting in the raid taking the same damage as if nobody had soaked, but being rewarded, rather than punished for it.

    2)Probably the most important thing I learned from doing my interviews is that the LFR population is much more diverse than people give it credit for. For one, as a personal anecdote, I raided with a person from WotLK until WoD. Prior to around Throne of Thunder, they were one of the best players I had ever met, almost always top 100 in their class. A month or so into ToT, they started to mention that their hands were frequently cramping up to the point of needing to leave the group for the rest of the night sometimes as little as 30 minutes in. They were diagnosed with severe RA. I still keep in touch with this person, and they can perform their DPS rotation, but have a lot of trouble physically dealing with mechanics and dealing damage at the same time. As a result, they often perform middle of the pack, at best, even though this person technically "overgears" LFR. I've interviewed others as well who mentioned things like carpel tunnel/other nerve damage/injuries affecting the hands.

    My point being that with a punitive score like this, it has to be forgiving enough to realize that although a bit cliche, everyone has a story, and it tends to be more diverse the lower in difficulty one goes. It's easy for us Mythic raiders to assume all groups are small in scope like us (18-30, usually male, usually a post-secondary student, or with a 9-5 job, life-long videogame nerd, Introvert, did I miss anything?)

    Still, I think the basic framework of the score is solid, but I think those few things are always going to prevent that kind of system from every working on anything other than paper.


    Thank you for the detailed response. This kind of constructive feedback is what I was looking for.
    I agree that more work needs to be done to Proving Grounds 2: Useless Boogaloo (love that name) and Raider Bait. I can understand how raiders will be frustrated/toxic when forced to do content that is "below them". Maybe retool it so their alts gets a bonus loot drop chance or something account wide (rep?). My goal is to add more experienced players to LFR. Any thoughts on that?


    The points system would need a learning AI that can help pick on each players mistakes. My Idea would have the score threshold so low that a player would have to be damn near trolling or afk to fail it.




    Thank you for your input. This is why I still have some faith in MMOC, Its a decent place to meet players and compare and contrast ideas.

    "Humility defeats pride, Master Yang has preached. Pride defeats man"


  2. #182
    LFR is the best thing that ever happened to actual raiding. ffxi is also a great game compare to world of warcraft.FFXI Gil will give you the access to all the best endgame content in the game. You will be able to obtain the best mounts, as well as the strongest armor sets and weapons. Get the Artifact, Relic and Empyrean armor and Relice, Mythic, Empyrean and Aeonic weapons.
    Last edited by devilzxlin; 2020-07-04 at 05:59 AM.

  3. #183
    So, that old addon that was VR-like that showed where all the mechanics were doing to land, could/should have been repurposed for LFR as a form of training to getting into raids/raiding. At least, it would have been a pretty neat and helpful tool.

  4. #184
    raiders/blizzard just need to get over the fact that raiding isn't that appealing and if it wasn't for blizzards insistance on tying the games story to them a lot of people wouldn't care about them at all.

    yeah that probably came out more salty than it should've but i've not had my coffee yet.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  5. #185
    Sadly, many friends do not care to learn the basics. They think is another chore and it is stupid to learn all the stuff for a game. For them is enough heroic dungeons and LFR and have some laughs with friends.

  6. #186
    LFR as it is right now fails in both teaching players what to do during raid encounters,
    and is also a tad too difficult to simply be a "tour" of the latest raids.

    If all you wanted was to watch the latest raid, they could implement a spectator mode,
    there are also twitch channels, youtube channels so on.

    I`d like to see it redesigned with a greater emphasis on teaching players what mechanics a fight has
    and how to avoid/deal with them.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by KainneAbsolute View Post
    Sadly, many friends do not care to learn the basics. They think is another chore and it is stupid to learn all the stuff for a game. For them is enough heroic dungeons and LFR and have some laughs with friends.
    And your friends are correct. It's a game and it is stupid to turn a game into another school or work.
    Game is suppose to entertain you. Learning gazillion of stuff just to start playing isn't really what people seek in games.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And your friends are correct. It's a game and it is stupid to turn a game into another school or work.
    Game is suppose to entertain you. Learning gazillion of stuff just to start playing isn't really what people seek in games.
    Yeah! I said sadly because they do not want to try other content but it is ok. Today, we had fun when one of our friend was kicked from LFR and we left in solidarity except one of us stayed! And the one who stayed in raid kept bringing excuses why he stayed and it was hilarious

  9. #189
    Mythic raiders be like

    "BUT I KILL BOSSES THAT HAVE 1 EXTRA MECHANIC AND A BIT MORE DAMAGE THAN HEROIC SO I'M MORE IMPORTANT!!!"

    Even though the Mythic raiding "community" makes up 1% of the player base.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And your friends are correct. It's a game and it is stupid to turn a game into another school or work.
    Game is suppose to entertain you. Learning gazillion of stuff just to start playing isn't really what people seek in games.
    My problem with current raid mechanics is that they’re so unintuitive, so all bosses throw shit around like angry monkeys, that much is obvious, but when is it “Avoid it or else...” and when is it “Soak it or else...”?

    The amount of stuff everybody is expected to know is pretty hefty (Admitting you don’t know or it’s your first time in a particular raid is an invitation to trouble, most of the time), and many people want a more “Zone in and go”-experience, doesn’t have to be easy or “tank and spank”-simple, but being understandable without out-of-game studying would be nice.

  11. #191
    Dude it doesn’t need changed

    Listen some people go in and they want to learn and they want to get better and others don’t give a shit and you can’t make them care why change your system that works because believe it or not the system works right now if you like five times to a boss in some people still don’t understand the mechanic that’s on them if they don’t go into a boss and think maybe they should look up the dungeon journal that’s on them you can’t make them better having a score or any kind of extra crap doesn’t matter and it shouldn’t and it’s a dead end

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    My problem with current raid mechanics is that they’re so unintuitive, so all bosses throw shit around like angry monkeys, that much is obvious, but when is it “Avoid it or else...” and when is it “Soak it or else...”?

    The amount of stuff everybody is expected to know is pretty hefty (Admitting you don’t know or it’s your first time in a particular raid is an invitation to trouble, most of the time), and many people want a more “Zone in and go”-experience, doesn’t have to be easy or “tank and spank”-simple, but being understandable without out-of-game studying would be nice.
    That exists it’s called the dungeon journal you going to the Raid we open it up and it shows the boss in an overview of what you need to do it also provides a list of skills but I’ve come to find that most people simply look at it to figure out what Loot can drop

    We have everything you need in the game to win It’s just up to the player to use it in a lot of the time they don’t and they choose not to instead they choose to wait for hours saying that it is a terrible experience but that’s on them because they don’t put in the minimal effort to figure out what’s going on

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejiko View Post
    LFR as it is right now fails in both teaching players what to do during raid encounters,
    and is also a tad too difficult to simply be a "tour" of the latest raids.

    If all you wanted was to watch the latest raid, they could implement a spectator mode,
    there are also twitch channels, youtube channels so on.

    I`d like to see it redesigned with a greater emphasis on teaching players what mechanics a fight has
    and how to avoid/deal with them.
    They have the dungeon journal they have a lot of callouts some mechanics even say what needs to happen and it pops up on the screen in big letters if people still aren’t learning and that is their fault with the child burn their hand on the stove a few times fuck it why change it let people improve at their own rate if they don’t want to improve and they want to suffer and retard mode let them do it and the reason why I call it that is because that’s how a lot of the people act in their

  12. #192
    Leave lfr as it is, it serves it purpuse for the peopel whos scared to join normal/hc pugs. Better they spend resources on anything else tbh.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by the0o View Post
    Thank you for the detailed response. This kind of constructive feedback is what I was looking for.
    I agree that more work needs to be done to Proving Grounds 2: Useless Boogaloo (love that name) and Raider Bait. I can understand how raiders will be frustrated/toxic when forced to do content that is "below them". Maybe retool it so their alts gets a bonus loot drop chance or something account wide (rep?). My goal is to add more experienced players to LFR. Any thoughts on that?


    The points system would need a learning AI that can help pick on each players mistakes. My Idea would have the score threshold so low that a player would have to be damn near trolling or afk to fail it.




    Thank you for your input. This is why I still have some faith in MMOC, Its a decent place to meet players and compare and contrast ideas.
    What does adding experienced raiders to LFR groups accomplish? Because this isn't new and has been in the game before. Raiders used to do LFR to help quickly fill out tier slots and presumably still do so for powerful trinkets ect. The most famous example of it not working is probably SoO. When LFR was released everything was fine, groups were clearing it with minimal effort. And then the raiders stopped queuing because they had their tier/trinkets and LFR groups started stranding at any boss that required the least bit of tactics. Like General Nazgrim and the complicated tactic of sometimes not hitting the boss. No one had learned jack shit and as soon as there wasn't raiders around the spam endless "Don't his the boss" it completely broke down.

    Many of these people have no interest at all in learning fights or improving. Incentivising raiders to constantly run LFR is just going to make them resent it more and more as they 100% have to carry every single time.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Icon View Post
    raiders/blizzard just need to get over the fact that raiding isn't that appealing and if it wasn't for blizzards insistance on tying the games story to them a lot of people wouldn't care about them at all.

    yeah that probably came out more salty than it should've but i've not had my coffee yet.
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2020-05-31 at 12:51 PM.

  15. #195
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    From my experience, playersthat run LFR don't want people shoving *skill* down their throats, so just leave them be.
    If they have fun running LFR, let them be.

  16. #196
    I think it should be a BOT experience and 20-25 of the bots CAN complete the encounter without you, but constantly res you if you die and give you dialogue "no hero you should avoid X ability this is how you can improve"
    and give borderline ANNOYING suggestions constantly if you keep failing so people can improve and afkers get annoyed.. with dialogue you can't mute or something, boots you if you don't move or do something required after dying 3 times to something simple "Hero, move to this spot that's flashing to prove you aren't afk!"

    That way 15-20 people can do LFR still get the gear.. fights will be done but MUCH slower if people don't help etc.. extra healers will focus on resing with an incombat res and keep people engaged in combat.
    Dragonflight Nerfs vs fun again show a Blizzard that hasn't learnt a lesson, Actions speak louder than words afterall watch what they do and do not do.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    You finish up the storylines started in questing by fighting the bad guys in raids, how is that not story?

    Ny'alotha is what all the 8.3 content leads up to, taking the fight to N'zoth, there may not be much exposition in there, and the cinematic was up on YouTube within minutes, but it is the capstone event of the entire patch. (The sole lore-reason of the cloak-grind is to be able to fight N'zoth)

    You might have had a point back in Vanilla, where the raids were just... there, and quite unrelated to the world in general, but from BC on in, the characters behind most of the stuff we encountered while questing were inside raids.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no story in raid content. Entire story is told outside of instances all you do in raid is killing bosses thats it.
    N'zoth being released in Eternal Palace raid.
    The sword in Azeroth shown in Argus raid.
    the way to Argus opening in Tomb of Sargeras raid.
    AU Gul'dan being sent to our Azeroth to set up Legion expansion in Hellfire Citadel raid.
    The end of Garrosh inside SoO
    ect ect
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    N'zoth being released in Eternal Palace raid.
    The sword in Azeroth shown in Argus raid.
    the way to Argus opening in Tomb of Sargeras raid.
    AU Gul'dan being sent to our Azeroth to set up Legion expansion in Hellfire Citadel raid.
    The end of Garrosh inside SoO
    ect ect
    All those are cinematics what you can watch on youtube. There is no gameplay involved which means there is no diference watching them on youtube or in raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    You finish up the storylines started in questing by fighting the bad guys in raids, how is that not story?

    Ny'alotha is what all the 8.3 content leads up to, taking the fight to N'zoth, there may not be much exposition in there, and the cinematic was up on YouTube within minutes, but it is the capstone event of the entire patch. (The sole lore-reason of the cloak-grind is to be able to fight N'zoth)

    You might have had a point back in Vanilla, where the raids were just... there, and quite unrelated to the world in general, but from BC on in, the characters behind most of the stuff we encountered while questing were inside raids.
    Yes but ennocunters do no push any story, there is no narrtive or lore elemets during boss fight outside of few random taunts from boss .

  20. #200
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
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    I think people who have a genuine interest in raiding quickly become aware of how easy normal is and progress out of LFR within a few weeks. The people who do LFR have no real interest in raiding and just want to finish the quest, or they use it to farm echoes if they don't do m+. Normal is much better for learning mechanics and how raid groups communicate. I think Blizz should nerf LFR a little bit more and let people level 60-120 using it.

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