Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Big Thanks]

@Shango

Ofcourse you have every single right to keep that piece.

Specially because you went in there just for the sole reason to get residium.

I dont see a world where you are "wrong" in any way or form.
An argument could be made that the armor piece is more important for someone who needs an actual upgrade.
But...what in the actual frick? Thats complete entitlement.

The piece is obviously yours to have -__-

[Spiral Mage]

No, I do not think you are the bad guy.

You joined the raid for the purpose of obtaining items to scrap, you kept the item for that reason, which was perfectly valid. You did *need* that item but not in the usual sense of 'needing', that's all.

If I was the person who needed that helm as an upgrade, yeah I might be a bit unhappy about it but I'd still accept the given reason as it is valid.

I will say that that Hunter has potentially worse odds of getting the upgrade later than you did at getting the Titanium Residium later but in the end, you won an item you needed, simple as that.

[Kumorii]

I have a question: why do you care this much about being kicked from the group?

Probably because they want to know if what they did was wrong. You know as op post describe. Why they want to know is to prevent it from happening again, or if these were idiots and should be ignored.

Have you never made a decision and then asked someone else if what you did were the right one?

[Shango]

I have a question: why do you care this much about being kicked from the group?

I don't want to sound rude here but i really dont care for being kicked and it also is not the reason i made this post. The reason i made this post is because the majority of the raid seemed to agree with the hunters view and i felt kind of, dont know if it is the right word to describe it but "alienated".

I guess i wanted to know if i just happened to land in a pug with similar views or if it was more like a general thing and i broke some kind of PUG etiquette.

[SirCowdog]

Reading through all the replies, it appears the issue is more of a mixed bag than i initially thought. Going forward i will make my intentions clear from the start should i join another PUG for minor loot reasons. (like transmog/residium)

At the end of the day im still fine with being a bit selfish here because i am fairly conviced most people would not bother to join a HC run for the sole reason to help equip strangers.

Thank you all for your feedback.

If it makes you feel any better, this type of argument has been going on since the beginning of wow. Here is the simple and straight answer:

If loot rules are not agreed upon before the loot drops, then anyone who complains afterwords is in the wrong. It's that simple.


You are in NO WAY obligated to give anyone a piece of gear that drops for you, especially not after personal loot is the standard. It doesn't matter WHAT the loot is, whether you can use it or not. If the game drops it in your bags with no prior arrangements or agreements, then it's yours. You are not being selfish. You are simply playing the game.

But on the other hand, if there are no rules or agreements before hand, the raid leader is also perfectly within his/her rights to kick you for any or no reason too. So take that into consideration.

Personally I think the raid leader and the other people agreeing with them were the ones being selfish. Threatening a raid kick if you don't hand over loot is a form of extortion. Here's the problem with it: What if the piece of gear had been an upgrade for you and they'd made the same actions: "Give us the loot or get out". Is that fair? No, of course not. And that's what it represented for you: A potential upgrade.

There's nothing wrong with someone asking if you would willfully trade a piece to them. No harm in that, especially if you don't actually need it. But the moment you said no, that should have been the end of it and they should have accepted that. IMO they crossed the line when they started making threats of retaliation/punishment against you if you didn't do what they wanted.

You were in no way in the wrong. You were not being selfish.

I'm not a fan of personal loot, but this seems like a cut and dry case to me.

[THEORACLE64]

I wouldn’t say so, no. It was your loot, you can do with it as you please. It’s not like you were scrapping it just for the hell of it, you were doing it to upgrade your own gear. So...

I think there’s become such an entitlement with people that they’ll expect that you’ll give them your loot when you don’t need it, but nope, your loot your choice!

[Cathfaern]

I don't think you did anything wrong. You got the gear, you can do whatever you want with it. Also the Raid Leader did nothing wrong. He was the leader of the raid so he do whatever he wants with it.

[HailToTheKing]

You're the baAaaAAAaaad guy... Duhh.

[Zantera]

When it comes to loot I have a bit of a different mentality depending if it's guild mythic prog or alt/social hc run or a pug hc run (i would lump the latter 2 together). If it's a guild mythic run then I will definitely take into consideration what would benefit the guild overall the most and in that type of scenario I would give the helm away since a guaranteed upgrade for someone else beats a 'potential' upgrade for me which hinges on RNG. However, that's what I feel is appropriate for a mythic level guild.

With heroic I would definitely take the side of 'its your loot and you choose what to do with it'. I HATE when people whisper me "do you need?" and that's the biggest turn off someone can do if they want a piece of gear from me. If I don't need the item I will roll it out in chat and be fair about it. If it's a pug group people are there for their own selfish reasons and that's the deal you make when you make the group. If I join a pug group and the only reason I'm doing it is that I need 200 residuum or I really want a heroic transmog piece to finish off a set I have 95% done, there's no way I would want to give that away. Your loot, your choice.

[xenogear3]

Can the raid leader force everyone's loot to master loot?

Blizzard should increase the chance of personal loot, but disable the trade.
The purpose of the personal loot is to avoid "loot drama" like yours.

It is Blizzard's design problem. Blizzard uses loot as "carrot on a stick".
That is why I don't raid any more. Just do LFR once and unsub.

[Sinaa]

Can the raid leader force everyone's loot to master loot?

Blizzard should increase the chance of personal loot, but disable the trade.
The purpose of the personal loot is to avoid "loot drama" like yours.

The purpose of PL is to avoid legitimate loot drama, not something stupid like this.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'm more interested to see if the people arguing that because a RL can boot someone at any time its not a dick move to do it because his huntard friend threw a tantrum.

Do they really believe this or are they just trying to be ackshually contrarians.

[Yarathir]

I'm more interested to see if the people arguing that because a RL can boot someone at any time its not a dick move to do it because his huntard friend threw a tantrum.

Do they really believe this or are they just trying to be ackshually contrarians.

They're trying to be absolutists.

Personally, I do think the raid leader had the technical right and power to kick him or anyone for any reason. But I would also look down on the raid leader for it.

[Amerissis]

You had no obligation to give him the piece, but I find it a dick move not to. I prefer to help out someone else when the 'profit' for me is so marginal. If that piece would up your ilevel and help you down a boss you've been struggling on (even if it's by scrapping it for something better), then I'd find it ok to keep it. In this case, you didn't really need it, did you?

[Yarathir]

At first, I thought you were maybe a little selfish, though still justified because its personal loot. Then I saw how he asked for it. I just don't get how he thought his argument was going to change your mind. Based on his response, I would have done the exact same thing and possibly been just as rude to him as he was to you.

Yeah, it's not like the guy was courteous about it and the OP just said "haha screw you dude, git gud."

The guy was being quite entitled to start with.

[xenogear3]

I'm more interested to see if the people arguing that because a RL can boot someone at any time its not a dick move to do it because his huntard friend threw a tantrum.

FF14 uses mandatory group finder.
No one in the group is called "leader".

Nearly all new MMORPG have group finder.
It is really sad that Blizzard gave in and made LFR story mode.

[Ssateneth]

No, you aren't a dick. Personal loot. Your loot. You can choose what to do with it. End of discussion.

[DechCJC]

You’re free to do whatever you want with your loot. I also think that the ‘your loot your rules’ logic does entitle the raid leader to act with a ‘your raid your rules’ mentality as well, not that I think it’s a great way to act. I believe the RL has just as much justification to kick as you had to keep it, in the same way that Blizzard can ban you for pretty much any reason whenever they want.

Lame situation, at least you had some purpose for keeping it. If someone disenchanted or vendored a big upgrade that I had been chasing for a while, I think that I would audibly cry and probably hate them.

[Tradu]

In a pug, if you loot it you can do whatever you want with it. They can kick you for it as well, that's their choice. Would be different in a guild group, but clearly that's not what this is about.

[Amarys]

FF14 uses mandatory group finder.
No one in the group is called "leader".

Nearly all new MMORPG have group finder.
It is really sad that Blizzard gave in and made LFR story mode.

How do these MMOs deal with trolls, AFKs and toxic people? You need someone to lead, read tactics and kick leechers and trolls in raids.
Normal raid in WoW might be doable like that(with lots of wiping, resulting in Blizzard nerfing them and thus making the LFR difficulty obsolete) but I can't really imagine most LFR groups being able to clear heroic, let alone mythic.