How to reinvigorate BGs for casuals and hardcore WoW Players (paper/long post)

[Rahsty420]

How to reinvigorate Battlegrounds for casuals and hardcore Wow Players.

Currently, I believe battlegrounds are in a sorry state and have been for a while. I think the changes I propose below will help battlegrounds 1) increase the amount of people actively in both normal and ranked ques, 2) give added utility and functionality to battlegrounds overall, 3) reinvigorate the battleground scene so it can rival or surpass arena participation
1-3 Ranked solo/trio que: Replace rated battlegrounds with a solo-trio (groups of 1-3 can que)
Some of the issues plaguing current rated battlegrounds: Rated battlegrounds, while initially having some success, have fallen to the wayside. Groups are difficult to form and quick to break up, much more so than dungeons or raid teams. They also don’t have the luxury of flex que, where if one or two dps leave you can keep pulling like in raids. Participation has been poor, and little prestige is gained by climbing the ranked ladders for the majority of the player base. If you want to PVP, you arena, simple as that.

How to implement solo/trio que: Solo/trio= groups of 1 (solos) to a maximum of groups of 3.

The reason I chose these groups numbers is because it:
1)provides flexibility
i. Groups can form on the spot, without having to search for extra members. Groups won’t feel pressured to find 5 or 10 so you can have a partial premade or full premade and que
2)allows for practical experience for other forms of PVP
i. I limited the group size to three, since the most popular form of PVP is 3v3 arena. Ranked battlegrounds would allow arena teams to practice team synergy in a different environment without having to que arena. This could be a fun way to get your rotations down while still having a competitive environment.
Furthermore, since premade teams would be limited to a maximum of 3, solo players or duos would not be set at a massive disadvantage. This would encourage small teams and solo players who just wanna hop on and get a game or two in to que, since they don’t have to go through the hassle of finding a group. Or, players who prefer solo content to have a ranked competitive environment to climb in, since arena requires at least one partner.

Also, arenas are a bit of a daunting experience. Requires a lot of counter knowledge of class and matchups, which can be intimidating to some players. Ranked battlegrounds could be a less stressful way for non-pvpers to get involved in some PVP. More of an opinion, but I can think of a handful of friends that would BG over arena and these are some of those reasons.

What the que algorithm relating to classes looks like (DPS/Healers/Tank

In order to demonstrate how the algorithm would work, I’m going to make a mock team for WSG, this algorithm could be modified/scaled to match a 15 man, but for now I’m going to avoid doing that to make it less complicated.

So, for WSG or any 10 man, you would have 1 tank, 2-3 healers (not sure what meta/preference is either could work, but it would be locked on either 2 or 3) 6-7 DPS.
Algorithm restrictions: These would be the following restrictions to help balance teams, outside of the general class position requirements. The goal of these restrictions is to provide some level of balance without overly restricting teams from forming (que times being short is important!). The goal is not to have perfectly balanced teams!

1. DPS Restrictions: Either 2-4 or 2-5 maximum, split between ranged and melee. This means the maximum amount of ranged DPS a team could have is either 4 or 5. This would force teams to at least have some melee, or some ranged, without letting it be a full ranged or full melee DPS team. Providing diversification is important in my opinion, but if it negatively affects que times, I think this restriction should be the first to go or raised to 6 instead of 4-5.
2. Class Restrictions: This restriction would limit classes in a battleground team.
a. For DPS:
i. Cannot have more than two of the same class, so only two rogues, two mages, so on.
ii. Out of the 7/8 DPS, cannot have more than +/- 3 between off heal classes and non-off heal classes. What this means, is that if you have 7 DPS the most of one type of class can be 5. You can have up to 5 off healers types or non off-heal types and as little as 2 of the alternative type.
1. The idea here, is that classes that can off heal (rets, spriests, ele/enhance shams, monks, etc.) have very different kits in terms of utility, spammable CC (fear/poly), and the ability to dump mana into heals. Having this limitation would prevent teams from being overloaded in one area of kit strength, and not having anything in the other side of kit strength.
iii. This would promote diversification, having different types for more engaging teams and balance by preventing overloading and underloading in terms of team overall DPS kit functionality.
b. For healers: Cannot have either more than 1 of the same or more than two, depending on whether 2 or 3 healers is the preferred meta. This could be a soft restriction as well. Where the algorithm will attempt to find unique healers for all healing positions and after 5 or so minutes it will allow for similar healers.
c. For all classes: Cannot have more than three in the overall group of 10 of the same class. So maximum three warriors, three monks, regardless of role, max.
3. Que Functionality:
a. The que would allow classes of all kinds to que for up to two roles, or just as one. So a tank could que as tank only, or tank and DPS etc. Obviously, allowing people to que for only one role will make their specific que times take longer and potential ques in general, but it is a necessary function for Ranked battlegrounds to work.
i. Competitive integrity
1. General comfort: Some people are not comfortable on there alternative roles, IE: some tanks just wanna tank. Same goes with healers. So having them play a role they aren’t comfortable on hurts competitive integrity.
2. Gear: The other big concern is people being put in a role they aren’t geared for. This would also drastically hurt competitive integrity.
4. Rating: Lot of different ways to tackle it. I think the simplest way is to do it is like current arenas or ranked battlegrounds. If you win you get rating, if you lose you lose rating. Would also take into factor whether one team was a lot higher or a lot lower and effect rating gain or loss like in current wow.
a. Why you should avoid performance-based rating
i. I think performance-based rating should be avoided due to the variety of classes and roles. How do you compare healers to DPS to your flag carrier? Should one DPS be rewarded more because he perma spammed AOE instead of bursting or CCing healers and focus firing? I don’t think performance-based rating would work in WoW and should be avoided.

5. Gear Acquisition: Depending on how shadowlands works (I know vendors are back) there are a few ways to approach it.
a. If there is still a random piece of gear based on rating, could choose either your arena or your ranked battleground rating. I
b. If you get weekly points the amount of points you get is based off of your highest of the two’s rating.
c. Furthermore, if gear is locked based on rating, hitting certain points in rated battlegrounds will unlock it just like arena rating.
d. Lastly, if you still get random rewards after completing an arena, then you should have a higher chance at getting a high tier from rated battlegrounds. This is due to the time commitment, 20-30 minutes for a rated battleground vs a fraction of that for 2’s or 3’s. Yes, some 2’s and 3’s do go very long, but I do think the consistent higher time commitment merits a higher reward.


Should tanks be allowed in all battleground formats or just Capture the Flag (WSG etc.):
I think every type of battleground should have room for at least one tank. Tanks can always serve a purpose, for instance guarding a capture point since they are so hard to kill. I think battlegrounds should be a place that promotes to an extent all roles of WoW. While having too many tanks would make for terrible gameplay, I think allowing a permanent spot for one tank is probably necessary. Whether allowing two tanks in 15 mans is another question I’m not sure about, my gut is to say no. But I don’t think the balance would be heavily impacted either way and should overall be a community decision. But I do strongly believe in allowing at least one tank.

How to deal with 10 mans or 15 mans: The most important thing is that the ques are not divided. There should not be a 10-man ranked BG que and a 15 man ranked BG que. Either combine them, and whatever you get you get. Or, have anywhere from 1 week to a month-long alteration of 10 mans vs 15. Doesn’t really matter, should focus on what the community would prefer and not dividing the player base to prevent ques from becoming too long.

TLDR of What having solo/trio brings to PVPers and the community:
1. Quick way to get competitive PVP in without forming a group, or already using your arena group. Incentivizing both solo and team play.
2. Allows for development of synergy between teammates in a different setting
3. Replaces the near nonexistant Rated BG que that is currently in place

Expected places where critics will push back: These are the areas where Blizzard has pushed back against ranked battlegrounds, or where I anticipate others to find criticism.
1. Lack of player balance: Yes, there will be imbalance. You may have a flag carrier that’s LoSing healers, DPS that don’t focus fire healers or CC them, healers spamming Dmg instead of keeping their party topped up. This is a reality of all que based PVP games. Parallels to these problems can be found in any form of competitive game like LoL, CSGO, Valorant, Dota 2, etc. Ques should provide the best opportunity possible, with the tech available, not the perfect scenario. These challenges, and overcoming them, is part of what makes competitive gaming what it is today. And players that have these flaws will lose more often, and players that don’t will win more often, creating a natural elo system.
2. Lack of class balance: Every expansion has shown the same core issues for PVP. Blizzard is slow to balance classes, and some items in PVE are completely busted in PVP. Yah that’s a problem, and it will be a problem Ranked BGs. But people still love arenas with these issues, and I think the same will go for BGs. If this idea of Ranked BGs is successful, then it will give more reasons for Blizzard to spend time balancing around PVP.
3. Blizzard doesn’t want to have to balance between 2v2, 3v3, and BGs: This is definitely an issue. Blizzard has made it very clear that 3’s is there focus in PVP. But, 3’s hasn’t really been in a great spot. Dampening was introduced, but games often have to go 10 mins+ for that to kick in effectively. 3v3 arena has swung back and forth in pacing, and rarely has it ever been right at that sweet spot. There is also a bit of rock paper scissors involved in arena where one comp just destroys the other comp. These issues won’t be as present in the BG system I’m presenting, making it a potentially superior form of PVP.
TLDR: It shouldn’t take that much more resources to get Ranked BGs into a similar or better state of balance than that of current arenas, and most of the balancing required for one will have benefits for the other. Only big difference that I can see is AOE healing and AOE DPS, where some classes may have an advantage due to the nature of there healing and dmg. This may require some specific balancing that isn’t present in arena.
4. Implementing a solo-esque type of BG que is too difficult: No, I don’t think it is. A blizzard employee specifically said this a year or two ago. While my algorithm above may not be perfect, I think it will be balanced enough so that every team will have an opportunity to succeed. Furthermore, I don’t think the algorithm is too complicated for tech, nor will it lead to outrageous que times. If there is any level of popularity for this system, it would probably be in between BG ques and arena ques. Maybe a bit longer.
Player engagement will depend heavily on the rewards players can get, and how effectively Blizzard manages elo gains and losses. One way to reduce early frustrations in team skill disparity, is to have arena rating play a part in your hidden MMR, within reasonable limits. So, a 2500 player may not start at 1500, but instead 1800 MMR. The goal is to not give higher rated players a massive advantage, but to prevent newer players from getting stomped by gladiators. I don’t even think this is a necessary implementation, but may be a nice QoL touch.


Templates should be introduced for normal battlegrounds ONLY
I know, templates were introduced in Legion and no one liked them. But hear me out, normal battlegrounds are the perfect place for templates.
1. It would provide an even playing ground for new players to not get stomped. This would allow new PvPers to step in and see what PVP is all about while being at a technical even footing.
2. It would allow players to try out other specs that they aren’t geared for, or alts they just dinged to max to see if gearing out is worth it. Ever wanted to try a destro lock, but wasn’t sure if you wanted to gear it up? Or try a different DPS spec but you don’t have the right stats for it? Templates in BGs would be the perfect solution. I think this would be great for both PvPers and PvErs and would encourage a wide variety of players to have a reason to hop in a normal BG.
Pvers can test out different spec rotations to get a feel for it, alt aholics would have a place where they can test which one seems the most fun. So many upsides! The only downside is supergeared pvpers can’t hop in and flex there stats. But, they’ll have ranked for that!! Pretty small downside compared to all the upsides.

I hope my guide on how to reinvigorate BGs was easy to read and understand! Please let me know what you think!! Best wishes!!!

-Raasty

[Rehija]

At least for rated BG the most usable "Fix" would be one class per slot, its bring the class anyway.

[Razion]

I wish BGs were shorter and quicker. Losing wouldn't feel as bad if you could quickly get out and into the next one.

It was fun when they made a few BGs per expac - almost like there could've been one every patch. What ever happened to that?

And like, seasons were supposed to come to BGs, and they ended up making a Brawl for like one area... but like, what about just general season visuals for all the BGs? It'd probably feel a lot more refreshing to do the same BGs over and over if there were seasons to all of them throughout the year - even if it was just visual. Like also, what if there were Holiday versions of BGs that were all decorated for the holidays and all festive? That'd be cool!

And like, non-instanced PvP areas... there's like, what, two of them? Gurubashi and Darkmoon Faire? All only really doable under certain time-frames. It's kind of weird.

It's also really weird there isn't a 1v1 duel mode to queue for. Even if it's just labeled as a kind of practice mode or something and unranked, I still think the option at least would be cool. And I mean honestly, if it was ranked, it'd be a heck of a lot more interesting to spectate than team PvP. 1v1 is just so much cooler.

[Demsi]

Going back to honor points and conquest is an easy fix that would make them more worthwhile doing

[XMD7007]

It's just non motivating to have to fight oponents with ilvl 475 while your reward for winning is a chance at ilvl 425. Makes no sense, such things also do not exist in PvE, where rewards and difficulty levels are correctly tuned (and also static).

Rewards should be based on average oponent item level. Why shouldn't there be a chance at an ilvl 465 reward if that was the average ilvl of the losing team?

Random BGs are trash content, like heroic dungeons and LFR, yet the probability at winning a PvP trash content BG is 50%, unlike winning PvE trash content where the probability is pretty much 100% (and it gets better over time due to outgearing). Where's the reward compensation for this situation for the PvP players?

[Dunkelzahn]

Standardized gear and stats upon entering. Fixed.

The problem is the "hardcore PVPers" are the only ones who would genuinely hate it, solely because most of them aren't actually any good, but instead rely on their gear. When everyone's equal, they rage and rage when they discover "casuals" are just as good as they are, if not better.

They really can't handle fair play.

[Warlucia]

Standardized stats is one thing I thought I would like about Legion. It ended up nearly killing the bg scene. That's why they went to a halfway point in bfa where there's an invisible scaling.

They just need to make pvp gear the best gear for pvp again, and bring back honor / conquest as a currency like they are in shadowlands, except put some pvp stats / set bonuses on the gear, not just standard gear.

Mmorpg pvp just doesn't feel right if you can't get gear and feel stronger than people without it. WoD did a pretty good job at pvp gear (minus ashran trinkets).

This is of course all my opinion, but yeah...

[Thelxi]

The only way is to go back on the decision to sacrifice PvP gearing at the PvE casino altar, and the chances of them doing that is next to zero. At best they are looking at prolonging the bleeding and temporarily placating the playerbase.

There are other (often escalating) problems of course, but everything is peanuts compared to PvP gearing being absorbed by PvE reward structures.

[Nathasil]

1. I would argue that every aspect of current WoW is in a miserable state except for M+ dungeons.
2. I always ask myself why people who do not bother to write out "queu" correctly not just use "Q". It baffles me. I really don't understand it. Nobody likes the word and most people cannot spell it. But there is a single letter with the perfect sound-match, yet most people instead try (and fail) to use the outwritten version.

3. All of the restrictions for setup proposed in the OP would DRASTICALLY inflate Qtimes, to a level where participation would decrease, not increase.

4. Imho, the greatest enemy of a successful and enjoyable PvP environment in WoW are factions. As long as the system is the way it is right now, normal BGs will not be an enjoyable experience for most players - and that is mainly caused by the faction barrier. For rated, factions are just completely pointless anyway.

5. Rewards are a huge factor. I can only speak for myself and people i actually know here, but when there were still vendors offering SETS (Items with FIXED stats and actual set bonuses), participation was FAR greater. SL will bring back vendors, but not sets. That does not fix anything for me. Having a vendor that shits crap on me is actually worse than not having a vendor. I like collecting sets. I do not like spending currency on random trash.

6. PvP Talents have killed PvP for me entirely. I will not clutter up my bars with buttons that are greyed out (or even disappear completely) when running M+. I simply cannot be arsed to reconfigure my bars all the time whenever i stepp through a portal. Only using passives will not improve your experience when trying out PvP as a casual.

[Protean]

Standardized gear and stats upon entering. Fixed.

The problem is the "hardcore PVPers" are the only ones who would genuinely hate it, solely because most of them aren't actually any good, but instead rely on their gear. When everyone's equal, they rage and rage when they discover "casuals" are just as good as they are, if not better.

They really can't handle fair play.

PVP, in its purest essence, has always been about skewing the fight in your favor. Gear is one of many ways to do it, and I get why people would balk at the idea.

On the other hand, games like overwatch wouldn't be as fun if you had to level up each hero separately for however long 1-120 takes in a training area, and then spend ages getting grinded by people who have huge damage and health advantages over you. Until you're finally somewhat competitive and then your opponents will either be on your level, or super squishy new people you'll completely stomp and lose all feelings of success.

I don't think there are any easy fixes to WoW pvp. Except if it was conducted entirely on a tournament realm and balanced separately from real WoW. And that won't be an EASY fix.

[Wheeler]

Truth be told, many people who haven't PvP'd for the last 10+ years aren't going to be getting into it at any point, for a few reasons:

1) The knowledge required to actually PvP successfully without a huge gear gap is immense. You need to know many things about many classes, and what to do in each comp. You can learn it, but most people aren't sticking around long enough to do so, for this reason (see 2)

2) It's a constant state of CC/Stun/Root in Arenas, and even in BG's. Players simply don't enjoy the game when CC/Stun is the name of the game. I can't count how many times I've heard "I'd like to actually PLAY MY CHARACTER" in PvP.

It's a disaster from the ground up, honestly.

[RobertMugabe]

Standardized gear and stats upon entering. Fixed.

The problem is the "hardcore PVPers" are the only ones who would genuinely hate it, solely because most of them aren't actually any good, but instead rely on their gear. When everyone's equal, they rage and rage when they discover "casuals" are just as good as they are, if not better.

They really can't handle fair play.

We had this in Legion and it almost killed PVP completely.

Srsly fuck that suggestion, like do you even PVP at all? What's the point in everyone being completely equal in a game like WoW? The main motivation to PVP should be gearing up and thus getting stronger and stronger. This was the case TBC-WoD and the PVP in these expacs was amazing. Your so-called hardcore PVPers don't care about gear, because these will get geared in no time anyways and they will fight equally fully geared players in arena... PVPing and getting gear is in fact what the vast majority of people who are mainly pvping actually want out of the game and not just a few tryhards.

Having equal gear and stats is maybe something that sounds appealing to all the people who really only ever do PVE content and only want to jump into BG's from time to time... and not even these people, who Blizz tried to win over, wanted to PVP in Legion, because there was no point.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Standardized gear and stats upon entering. Fixed.

The problem is the "hardcore PVPers" are the only ones who would genuinely hate it, solely because most of them aren't actually any good, but instead rely on their gear. When everyone's equal, they rage and rage when they discover "casuals" are just as good as they are, if not better.

They really can't handle fair play.

The problem is they've dumbed down the game outside of high-end arena so a lack of gear just means. The more stacked team wins and matchmaking is rng. There nothing fun about sitting in 10-15 minute loss that is out of your control. You also get no reward for it as well.

There is no punishment for spamming your cooldowns in random battlegrounds and unless a team takes advantage of it. Individual players don't matter but the team does. That team is also put together randomly.

[wraysbury]

Here's how BGs as a casual looks like right now:

*gets destroyed by people with gigantic stacks of corruption effects*
*looks at preserved contaminant prices*
*conclude that it'll be faster to wait for shadowlands or classic TBC than to grind this garbage*
*uninstall game*

[Dundebuns]

Base it on what GW2 does; you have a PvP set that you automatiaclly wear when you enter instanced PvP. You can buy a basic pvp set for free with only basic stats on. You get two slots per item which you can put a stat gem in (which has no values, just the stat). You then gain the value of those secondary stats depending on the ilvl of the gear you're slotting them in to. You then use honor and conq points to purchase slightly stronger versions of those bits of pvp gear.

Essentially it's templated stats but you as the player get full control over the secondaries AND you have PvP progression.

[Dunkelzahn]

The problem is they've dumbed down the game outside of high-end arena so a lack of gear just means. The more stacked team wins and matchmaking is rng. There nothing fun about sitting in 10-15 minute loss that is out of your control. You also get no reward for it as well.

There is no punishment for spamming your cooldowns in random battlegrounds and unless a team takes advantage of it. Individual players don't matter but the team does. That team is also put together randomly.

None of what you said has any relevance to anything I said.

- - - Updated - - -

We had this in Legion and it almost killed PVP completely.

No, we've never had anything close to it.

The key phrase, in case you missed it, is that everyone is equal in both gear and stats. Not "gear and stats are replaced, but still get better for the people who constantly PVP while everyone else's continue to suck."

But hey, thanks for showing just how much PVPers hate a fair fight regardless.

- - - Updated - - -

PVP, in its purest essence, has always been about skewing the fight in your favor.

Hey guys, I found an example of one of the people I was talking about. He's right here.

[munkeyinorbit]

Here is the solution.

You have a season rating across account for each BG. You are matched with players of similar ratings. Points you get are based off the ratings. For the best, gear takes 6 weeks to get all. 15 weeks if you are the worst and lose every BG you play. New players or bad players will never come across better or geared players except for week 1 unless the sign up for the organised PvP.

There. Unorganised PvP is fixed. You are welcome.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

None of what you said has any relevance to anything I said.

- - - Updated - - -


No, we've never had anything close to it.

The key phrase, in case you missed it, is that everyone is equal in both gear and stats. Not "gear and stats are replaced, but still get better for the people who constantly PVP while everyone else's continue to suck."

But hey, thanks for showing just how much PVPers hate a fair fight regardless.

- - - Updated - - -


Hey guys, I found an example of one of the people I was talking about. He's right here.

It does equalizing gear isn't the problem. You can have equal gear but when skill means nothing that doesn't fix the problem.

Also what fair fight between matchmaking and class differences wow is innately unfair. Some classes benefit from combos and other things more as well.

I can 100-0 some classes but other have immunities which makes them harder to kill with a healer. Others are good at aoe burst or single target. Gearing like talents, essences, and other mechanics can help certain classes deal shortcomings.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the solution.

You have a season rating across account for each BG. You are matched with players of similar ratings. Points you get are based off the ratings. For the best, gear takes 6 weeks to get all. 15 weeks if you are the worst and lose every BG you play. New players or bad players will never come across better or geared players except for week 1 unless the sign up for the organised PvP.

There. Unorganised PvP is fixed. You are welcome.

That won't fix it just split the community and increase queue times.

[SirBeef]

Standardized gear and stats upon entering. Fixed.

The problem is the "hardcore PVPers" are the only ones who would genuinely hate it, solely because most of them aren't actually any good, but instead rely on their gear. When everyone's equal, they rage and rage when they discover "casuals" are just as good as they are, if not better.

They really can't handle fair play.

Been saying this for over 10 years and get nothing but backlash from these types. PvP should be about skill and nothing more. Normalize gear, give away raid level gear and cool cosmetics but upon entering PvP mode, BGs, Arena, all flagged players gear is normalized, enchants and gems deactivated and no potions/flasks/scrolls or group wide buffs. Skill will determine the winner.

We all know they want to bot for gear and "pwn" "lesser" players. Most don't stand a chance on even an even ground.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Been saying this for over 10 years and get nothing but backlash from these types. PvP should be about skill and nothing more. Normalize gear, give away raid level gear and cool cosmetics but upon entering PvP mode, BGs, Arena, all flagged players gear is normalized, enchants and gems deactivated and no potions/flasks/scrolls or group wide buffs. Skill will determine the winner.

We all know they want to bot for gear and "pwn" "lesser" players. Most don't stand a chance on even an even ground.

The game isn't about skill there legit differences between classes and stuff.... Like wow is innately unbalanced. Unbalanced and unskillful is wow natural state hard counter exist in this game dude. There are some 1v1 match ups that are just unfair baseline before gear is even an issue. Wow and skill don't belong together outside of 3v3 honestly.