Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Monster Hunter]

Well, that's isn't what they are saying. People are not arguing what should be done. In fact, I think everyone agrees OP was 100% in the right for his actions. We are arguing on whether or not the action was selfish.

give me some of your stuff, mail it me, i want it.

[Volatilis]

Well, that's isn't what they are saying. People are not arguing what should be done. In fact, I think everyone agrees OP was 100% in the right for his actions. We are arguing on whether or not the action was selfish.

Yeah a loot thread about a stagnant mmo's loot "policy" is a great place to discuss the philosophy of altruism

[Darththeo]

Ok, let's assume you're correct. So fucking what? At the end of the day, it's OP's loot, and nobody else's. Claiming a greater need for something that didn't drop for them is more selfish. Fight me.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. What I dislike is that when people twist definitions and even more so when they use that twisted definition to tell me I am wrong.

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give me some of your stuff, mail it me, i want it.

Well, I am selfish about my stuff, so no.

[TheRevenantHero]

So you think its ok for someone to make a raid, invite their scrub geared friend then hound players into giving you loot for your badly geared friend that doesnt want to put any effort into gearing himself from WoWs dozen of sources for free loot. He should be able to harass players who are maybe there for other reasons than gearing the scrub lord and giving them loot and if they dont they get kicked from raid out of spite.

AWESOME LOGIC BROOOOOOO

Lol wow way to completely take everything out of context. The guy is allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. I can't control what he does. But actions have consequences. If he's gonna be selfish as fuck and just mulch gear after someone nicely asked for the piece of gear, they can get kicked the fuck out. The majority of people don't want to raid with leeches. People raid to get gear. So when you're taking that gear and mulching it, you're a leech. Because someone else who could have used the gear could have been in your place. so therefore, you can get kicked and replaced by someone who isn't a leech.

[Volatilis]

Lol wow way to completely take everything out of context. The guy is allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. I can't control what he does. But actions have consequences. If he's gonna be selfish as fuck and just mulch gear after someone nicely asked for the piece of gear, they can get kicked the fuck out. The majority of people don't want to raid with leeches. People raid to get gear. So when you're taking that gear and mulching it, you're a leech. Because someone else who could have used the gear could have been in your place. so therefore, you can get kicked and replaced by someone who isn't a leech.

"Selfish prick" because he didnt want to keep handing over loot he had hoped to drop to scrap.

How about people dont be annoying and whisper you as soon as loot drops so people can actually enjoy the raid and not feel guilt tripped into gearing up random strangers.

If people want to give away their loot they should say so in raid chat and let everyone have a chance to roll for it not just the person whispering everyone while not doing trash or helping the raid and are only thinking about themselves.

this is why people dont even loot mid run anymore and just wait for it from a mail box. No annoying spam/drama

[javierdsv]

Let's ask Blizzard to stop the chat from announcing drops when loot type is set to personal.

Problem solved.

[Cronovey]

Your loot, your choice.

However:

Their raid, their choice.

If it's right for you to keep gear that is an upgrade for someone else for selfish reasons, it is also within their rights to kick you from the group for a selfish reason as it is their group just in the way it is your loot. Nobody was right or wrong because there's no defined terms of what is right or wrong in this case. You exercised your right to keep a piece of personal loot instead of trading it and they exercised their right to remove you from their raid for any reason they deem fit.

In other words, either you both did perfectly reasonable things or you were both dicks. In the end, who cares?

[Hero2Zer0]

I disagree, its an item he purposely went in for, because he has a specific purpose for it. On top of that, 15ilvl is neither here or there it may have well been an upgrade for him as far as the hunter was concerned.

obv we don't know the facts but I think its a safe assumption the hunter kicking up the fuss and the RL were probably 2 of those 4 in the same guild

What do you disagree with, I'm with the OP, the pally also agreed that he could keep the loot.

[Bigcountry11782]

Let's ask Blizzard to stop the chat from announcing drops when loot type is set to personal.

Problem solved.

That is a terrible idea.

[Gurg]

Your loot, your choice.

However:

Their raid, their choice.

If it's right for you to keep gear that is an upgrade for someone else for selfish reasons, it is also within their rights to kick you from the group for a selfish reason as it is their group just in the way it is your loot. Nobody was right or wrong because there's no defined terms of what is right or wrong in this case. You exercised your right to keep a piece of personal loot instead of trading it and they exercised their right to remove you from their raid for any reason they deem fit.

In other words, either you both did perfectly reasonable things or you were both dicks. In the end, who cares?

Perfectly said good sir.

We had similar issue in yesterday's guild HC run.
Our lock had 465 ring from before and decided to keep the 465 ring that he got in the run since its +15 haste increase.
On the other side, it was +15ilvl upgrade to our Hunter in that slot.
Lock didnt even replied on polite question "Hey, do you need that?"
Two bosses later, simply to poke him, our Hunter called Lock "Prick"
It was not super ill intended as we communicate like that.
First next wipe, caused by the Lock - Lock left. Followed by his wife, healer.
Logged out. exited discord without a word.
This is all happening in a guild run.

Now thats dick behavior. Not what you did.

You joined PUG raid with set goal. As said above, you had your reason, they had their own.
Looking at it from your side - nothing wrong done, really not.
However, looking from the side of Raid Leader, which is there to gear his guildie, you choose to keep loot that you TECHNICALLY dont need.
So, if something else drops for you, theres a high chance that you wont pass it, therefore you are "dead investment" - you top the chart but you keep what you get.
They simply decided to boot you and replace you with more "cooperative" player.

Let's ask Blizzard to stop the chat from announcing drops when loot type is set to personal.

Problem solved.

This is easily bypassed by addons that already exist.
rclootcouncil

[SirCowdog]

And do you know what consideration means? Careful thought. Now if you actually think carefully is your basically enchanting shard worth more to you than that helmet upgrade is to the other person? No of course not especially when you have the skill/items to be above that level and they can't even get a full guild group.

This is what you guys seem to be unable to understand. If the situation was that the hunter was asking for the helmet to shard it and the op was getting a full item upgrade it wouldn't be selfish to keep it as when you consider everything your need is greater than the hunters.

I understand perfectly.

You're conflating that the value of the item to the hunter outweighs the value of the item to the OP. Which, again in a purely technical sense, you're correct. But when applied to the practical situation, it doesn't matter WHAT the value is to the hunter. It could be a brutosaurus drop that no one in the raid has(yes I know that doesn't happen). Does that mean that the person who wins the roll should just give it up because it also holds some value to another player?

The hunter in question has ZERO claim on the drop. None. Everyone in the raid entered it with no prior agreements or arrangements, leaving everything up to the RNG of the personal loot system. As I said before: There's nothing wrong with the hunter asking if he can have the drop. But the conversation ends when the actual receiver of the drop says "No." That is the ENTIRE POINT of personal loot(something I argued vehemently against back before the removal of master loot, btw).

Would it have been cool and super altruistic for the OP to give up the item? Sure. But it is also absolutely NOT selfish to keep the item either. In fact, his decision to keep the drop was justified by the entitled, petty, and rude reaction that the hunter and the rest of the raid had after. Whatever value the item may have had to the hunter was nullified by that behavior.

[Gurg]

I understand perfectly.
snip.

The hunter in question has ZERO claim on the drop. None. Everyone in the raid entered it with no prior agreements or arrangements, leaving everything up to the RNG of the personal loot system. As I said before: There's nothing wrong with the hunter asking if he can have the drop. But the conversation ends when the actual receiver of the drop says "No." That is the ENTIRE POINT of personal loot(something I argued vehemently against back before the removal of master loot, btw).
.

Its even simpler than that.
There were no loot rules changes on which PUG raid agreed on beside games enforced personal loot.
You have the right to keep what you get. On other hand they have the right to boot you and replace you since you are, as i said above "dead investment."
You top the cart, however you do not share.
Its simple as that.
However, its down to personal moral choice too, which is different in all of us.
I would choose to keep him, in a long run hes top DPS, therefor to some extend carry.
He would help easier ride trough the raid and faster Achievement grab.
U get the Achievement, you will more easily get into new raid to increase your chances for upgrade from bosses which did not drop an upgrade during raid in issue.

But again. I like to think on long run gain as well as having fun.
Thats personal opinion.

[gobio]

(SPOLIDER NEIR AUTOMATA DON'T READ)













Imagine playing NEIR : AUTOMATA

And you see this : [Bros] [you finished you game] [delete your save] [I am entitled].

And would you still delete your save? (regardless of the fact that the dude probably deleted their save for it to show on your screen nor those statement are not actually available)

[Monster Hunter]

Lol wow way to completely take everything out of context. The guy is allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. I can't control what he does. But actions have consequences. If he's gonna be selfish as fuck and just mulch gear after someone nicely asked for the piece of gear, they can get kicked the fuck out. The majority of people don't want to raid with leeches. People raid to get gear. So when you're taking that gear and mulching it, you're a leech. Because someone else who could have used the gear could have been in your place. so therefore, you can get kicked and replaced by someone who isn't a leech.

a leech is a creature that takes from a host what doesn't belong to it, the loot was his, its his reward for helping kill the boss, the person asking has no right to it, they are the leech, arguable the contributed less to the kill than the OP and yet expected the OP's reward.

nicely asking for gear, only guarantees a nice NO, it doesn't give them any right to the gear.

it clear the hunter was being boosted by his Friends who set up the raid, he is the leech in this situation and on realising the OP wasn't a willing milk cow who will just hand over his loot they booted him.

your the reason why i disenchant the loot i don't need. people who not only feel entitled to other peoples loot, but go so far as to think them not giving it over akin to a tyrant withholding there riches.

- - - Updated - - -

Its even simpler than that.
There were no loot rules changes on which PUG raid agreed on beside games enforced personal loot.
You have the right to keep what you get. On other hand they have the right to boot you and replace you since you are, as i said above "dead investment."
You top the cart, however you do not share.
Its simple as that.
However, its down to personal moral choice too, which is different in all of us.
I would choose to keep him, in a long run hes top DPS, therefor to some extend carry.
He would help easier ride trough the raid and faster Achievement grab.
U get the Achievement, you will more easily get into new raid to increase your chances for upgrade from bosses which did not drop an upgrade during raid in issue.

But again. I like to think on long run gain as well as having fun.
Thats personal opinion.

every pug is a dead investment so that argument doesn't make much sense, in a guild raid you have a point but as pugs its likely non of you will raid together again, or at least not regularly enough that me handing some other pug loot will effect my own future success like in a guild.

the only way the OP would be dead weight is if the situation is as the he suspects really a covert boost group for the hunter, meaning those not willing to fork over there loot would be counter productive to the raid leaders aim of boosting his mate, but then id argue the OP is the one ebing exploited by giving a boost to those guys without any recompense.

[TheRevenantHero]

a leech is a creature that takes from a host what doesn't belong to it, the loot was his, its his reward for helping kill the boss, the person asking has no right to it, they are the leech, arguable the contributed less to the kill than the OP and yet expected the OP's reward.

nicely asking for gear, only guarantees a nice NO, it doesn't give them any right to the gear.

it clear the hunter was being boosted by his Friends who set up the raid, he is the leech in this situation and on realising the OP wasn't a willing milk cow who will just hand over his loot they booted him.

your the reason why i disenchant the loot i don't need. people who not only feel entitled to other peoples loot, but go so far as to think them not giving it over akin to a tyrant withholding there riches.

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every pug is a dead investment so that argument doesn't make much sense, in a guild raid you have a point but as pugs its likely non of you will raid together again, or at least not regularly enough that me handing some other pug loot will effect my own future success like in a guild.

the only way the OP would be dead weight is if the situation is as the he suspects really a covert boost group for the hunter, meaning those not willing to fork over there loot would be counter productive to the raid leaders aim of boosting his mate, but then id argue the OP is the one ebing exploited by giving a boost to those guys without any recompense.

Ok and you're the kind of person I immediately kick from a raid as soon as you disenchant just ONE piece of loot. Hell, I kick people who outright refuse gear that they don't actually equip. I only run groups for people who are actually going to either use the gear or give the gear to someone who can use it. And guess what? That's my right because it's MY group. Just like that raid leader had every right to kick OP.

[Monster Hunter]

Ok and you're the kind of person I immediately kick from a raid as soon as you disenchant just ONE piece of loot. Hell, I kick people who outright refuse gear that they don't actually equip. I only run groups for people who are actually going to either use the gear or give the gear to someone who can use it. And guess what? That's my right because it's MY group. Just like that raid leader had every right to kick OP.

like id joined your raid on my 475 char. you seem to think that not being in your raid or getting booted from your raid is some form of corrective punishment, like most people are some how wounded by your disapproval? please.... there 10000 pug groups running every day for nyalotha heroic and normal for alt farming and essence farming and in 99.9999% of them no one gives a rats arse about who gets or gives out loot, only that the dps is high and the kills are smooth. hell most in them dont need 90% of the loot from heroic anymore.

Christ the only reason the hunter wasn't the one booted with his low dps was because the whole raid was set up to farm him gear. any disagreement like that in a pug group is a simple choice the high dps or the low one and 99% of the time is good by bottom dps.

the Op was probly better off getting kicked as he could join a group that wasn't boosting dead weight

[MatthewOU2015]

People that call OP a prick vote for more free handouts for the poor lol

[Shango]

I don't believe you even a little bit. On both you getting invited to raids if you say any loot you get is getting scrapped because fuck everyone else and that you didn't think telling the raid leader would deny you entry.

I can see not being invited if i whispered the leader with "anything i loot well be scrapped (cause fuck everyone else)" but this is not what happened. I was there to scrap a single piece of loot and as i allready stated numerous times earlier i even gave away a torment in a jar that dropped earlier without a second thought.

Regarding the 2nd part, I have joined pugs for quite a few years now, i have also formed many pugs on my own. I cant recall a single time anyone has ever whsipered me what they were trying to achieve in the raid nor did i ever feel the need to inform other raid leaders of my intention.

[Monster Hunter]

I can see not being invited if i whispered the leader with "anything i loot well be scrapped (cause fuck everyone else)" but this is not what happened. I was there to scrap a single piece of loot and as i allready stated numerous times earlier i even gave away a torment in a jar that dropped earlier without a second thought.

Regarding the 2nd part, I have joined pugs for quite a few years now, i have also formed many pugs on my own. I cant recall a single time anyone has ever whsipered me what they were trying to achieve in the raid nor did i ever feel the need to inform other raid leaders of my intention.

Exactly, your not out of the norm here, the default behaviour with pugs and personal loot is what drops is yours to do with as you like, if the rl wasn't curtious enough to put in the description that they were boosting there hunter freind, then its not your fault they got salty when you wanted to keep your loot for what ever reason you pleased.

Your only mistake was whispering them back, just ignore them and if they get salty, then leave, it's not your responsibility to boost some one else's freind, it's far less agro just to sign for a different group who will appreciate the dps you can do and not place demands on you out side of the norm regarding loot.

[temple1906]

Exactly, your not out of the norm here, the default behaviour with pugs and personal loot is what drops is yours to do with as you like, if the rl wasn't curtious enough to put in the description that they were boosting there hunter freind, then its not your fault they got salty when you wanted to keep your loot for what ever reason you pleased.

Your only mistake was whispering them back, just ignore them and if they get salty, then leave, it's not your responsibility to boost some one else's freind, it's far less agro just to sign for a different group who will appreciate the dps you can do and not place demands on you out side of the norm regarding loot.

This. The people getting salty about what you did are bad players that want everything handed to them.