Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Beloren]

Descending from Highborn, the High Elfs focused only on magic, that is the reason why BE are not meant to be warriors.

High Elfs are not that old as a race, they only around 10k years, BE less then 30 as a separate faction.

Also, there is a huge diference betwin being an ancient race and being ancient creatures. HE/BE are not imortal, and all Kaldorei have been imortal untill not long ago, every single Highborne has the experience of countless years, some, migh have lived 15k years.

Even a less powerfull Highborne would easely trick a much youger HE/BE magician with dirty trick after dirty trick. In really life, that is what older people do with younger ones, lol.

They couldn't have focused only on magic - they are magical, not that magical - that's the crazy night elves - compare say the nightborne and the blood elves, the nightborne use everything for magic, just like pre-sundering kaldorei, like everything, blood elves use magic a lot, but we still have Farstriders and rogues and warriors too, that are more normal.

More magical than humans ofc, but not the crazy levels of the night elves that brought the legion.

anyway, i'm pretty sure High Elves are 7,000 years old as a race, with their own separate appearance, identity and a new version of highborne culture which was far superior to the corrupted night elven one.

Darth'remar wanted a place where ALL magic, incl arcane could be freely practiced by elves who would have learnt the mistakes of the past, there fore doing exactly what he told Malfurion could be done - the elves could do magic preventing the Legion's return and learn from the excesses of the past.

Quel'thalas culture was idyllic, it wasn't as magical as night elven culture, but it's values, it's quality of life, it's community with mutual respect, honour and nobility was far better. These guys were gracious and lordly, reminiscent perhaps of the Farondis and what Night elf highborne nobility may have been at first, except even better and without all that nature wild spirit reverence or Elune mixed in.

I view the high elf society as the human utopia, night elven might have had grand civilization, and i don't think it was cruel like it ended up at the very end after Azshara had gone bat crazy, but i think the high elves got how it's supposed to be done right, they were perhaps just a bit too goodly.

I prefer the blood elf incarnation, where they are a bit closer to the invasion period highborne, more arrogant, more reckless than they were as high elves and determined to not let anyone get in their way.

He had rangers with him, and he did a joke about going into the enemy's base with nothing else then sticks, that was what Kael said in WC3.

I really wish we get Kael'thas back, and get a redemption story arc, of all the characters they were sacrificing for the earlier expansions, Illidan and Kael'thas were the two biggest mistakes, and they brought Illidan back, so they should do the same for the blood elves.

I liked Kael'thas and ws so disappointed they made him a villain, but at the time, i was more excited to play a blood elf.

[Hellspawn]

@Hellspawn @Mace

The way I feel about the whole thing, is that the Nightborne ARE the side of the Night elves that's fancy, magical and that's SEEN on the horde. So I entriely understand why some people don't want the alliance night elves to have any of that stuff, because it feels like it's taking from the horde. i.e. no night elf highborne stuff, no city, because that's on the horde now.

No night elf city because the horde got Suramar and Sivermoon? That sounds pretty stupid.

[ravenmoon]

No night elf city because the horde got Suramar and Sivermoon? That sounds pretty stupid.

Welcome to people like Enigmaddict and Tanaria - blood elf fans who I think secretly like night elves but feel fan loyalty to the horde so must oppose alliance efforts even outside the game - it's like sports fans, actually it's worse than sports fans.

Night elves (who have highborne) and race founding gensis based around the arcane - shouldn't have HIghborne, or night elven cities because it's on the horde.
High elves - long time original members of the first alliance, and still faithful to it (nvm Obelisk Kai's arguments) - shoudln't be available to the alliance because the horde has it.

It is utterly dumb, it has no logic, it is also not how the races in the game operate - they have what they have based on the lore blizzard has given them, lore that is intended to make them as diverse as possible so you have many options to roleplay as poossible. Night elves came in before wow, and from the get go were establisehd as a magical wielding race having 2 disintc t contrasting states juxtaposed - whether it's arcane/nature, civilised/savage, male/female edgy/benevolent it's their hallamark accross the board from start till current - magic runnign through as this tittle says.

It boils down to, my football club now has the cool race and the cool facilities and everyone looks at it as the best, everyone is jealosuy of it and wants it.. so therefore I don't want any one else to have it, that's it.

Meanwhile alliance fans are sittgin down and are like , why are our magic users, our warriors, our fighters all so lame, why is blizzard feeding us the crappier stuff for our own race.. this is not about getting what's the horde, why can't we be high elves, why are night elves sucking, why can't night elves have their wondrous civilization/city and powerful highborne mages, powerful Moonguard, powerful druids, powerful warriors and priests that feel like they are 10,000 year old battle hardened fierce race that inflicted the legion's first defeat. WC3 manual describes them as a titanic race?

What are most night elf complaints

night elfs suck
Night elves always lose
Night elves look crap
Night elves don't have cool stuff

1. most pre Legion quests were night elves constantly beaten and looking awful in game - not once do you see Night elves do powerful arcane magic like pre-sundering times, powerful druidic magic (for a race that can grow world trees and guide the evolution of the world) , not once do you see their archers and hunters in game quest doing physics defying feats that are humanly impossible, not once do you their priests in game do anything spectacular like in the novels or even WC3.

2. Not once in Warcraft have night elves won against the horde decisively until 8.1, they would barely survive, if not obliterated. In contrast, we see the horde races doing all the death defying feats taking on a race that is supposed to be legendary, titanic, and near immortal with ease as if they were novices (exempting the ones who were actually novices in Azshara zone).

3. Their models were great for classic, but come on, the BElves were so much better, however 6.0 came a chance to fix a lot of issues and make them look cool. end result? the y looked worse, all of a sudden females looked like men with ripped abs stomachs... males had neck posture issues and the inability to stand up straight compared to the classic model that wst straight, no cool hairstyles, faces, or beards were added (to the males at least, the females got a few), the graphical fidelity was poor compared to most other races (unfortunately for them trolls were in the same boat)

4. And the cool stuff? Well Legion brough a Nelf pre-sundering city that was cool, a lot of cool Nelf stuff as well whether in Suramar city, Moonguard stronghold, Azsuna, Black Rook hold, Vall'sharah , Demon Hunters - and not one of them is tied to the playable group, in fact the coolest thing, the city goes to the horde, with the very magical night elves of it, who look powerful in game, wihth the original version brushed aside, and guess what burnt /genocided.


This is the race that has the Nightborne, that has Suramar, greatest arcane wielders, greatest nature wielders, edgy as fuck elite demon hunters fabuolous temples to Elune, great forests, and yet they just find a way for it not to be associated to the actual playable group so they feel like some remnant that is hardly the night elves.

So when people think of the night elves, they see more the lame treehugger type, and the bouncy breast chick. - because all the cool stuff is either too few and far between, or is given over to the horde.

So when alliance lovers and players or at least the elven ones want some of their stuff from their lore showing and being cool on their faction, you get these goons coming to tell them they can't have them, or shouldn't have them.

[Ardenaso]

-snip-

it's funny because Shen'dralars were already with the Alliance since Cataclysm but the Alliance hating Blizzard moved a byproduct of it to the Horde and now the Horde fanboys want the magical night elf elements to themselves

Never mind the fact that Blood Elves and Nightborne effectively killed the true (with no capital letter) Horde spirit. But then again I also think that Night Elves should have been in the Horde anyway so what gives

[Hellspawn]

it's funny because Shen'dralars were already with the Alliance since Cataclysm but the Alliance hating Blizzard moved a byproduct of it to the Horde and now the Horde fanboys want the magical night elf elements to themselves

Never mind the fact that Blood Elves and Nightborne effectively killed the true (with no capital letter) Horde spirit. But then again I also think that Night Elves should have been in the Horde anyway so what gives

I think the "true horde" crowd is a different one than the ones who want Highborn Nightelf stuff exclusive for the horde.

[Ardenaso]

I think the "true horde" crowd is a different one than the ones who want Highborn Nightelf stuff exclusive for the horde.

the "true horde" crowd are the Warcraft 3 purists... they wanted the Night Elves as Horde since they have more common with them than the Alliance

but even so I'd think the Blood Elves would be Horde still since Tyrande has very high views of the Blood Elves considering Kael helped save Tyrande

[Hellspawn]

the "true horde" crowd are the Warcraft 3 purists... they wanted the Night Elves as Horde since they have more common with them than the Alliance

but even so I'd think the Blood Elves would be Horde still since Tyrande has very high views of the Blood Elves considering Kael helped save Tyrande

That did not stop the night elfs to spy on the blood elfs with BC. IDK that entire interaction had no effect in wow lore at all, they actually decided in wow that night elfs and blood elfs don't like each other.

I personally would have prefered night elfs on Horde aswell with the Thrall Horde. But that ship sailed long ago.

[Ardenaso]

That did not stop the night elfs to spy on the blood elfs with BC. IDK that entire interaction had no effect in wow lore at all, they actually decided in wow that night elfs and blood elfs don't like each other.

I personally would have prefered night elfs on Horde aswell with the Thrall Horde. But that ship sailed long ago.

I'd say that the questline is what really brought the Blood Elves to the Horde, not Garithos. It was stupid though, why would Tyrande send them in the first place? She recognizes that the High Elven priests helped in the defense against Hyjal and she and Malfurion are so grateful for the Blood Elves

But mixing the ideas of the purists, it should have been instead High Elf exiles sabotaging and looting the arcane sanctums for mana crystals and Tyrande sends in her sentinels for goodwill for the Blood Elves then the Night Elves help the Blood Elves against the exiles and then Tyrande brings them to the Horde

But then again, these conditions must be applied

1. No Draenei/Broken retcon
2. Sylvanas doesn't join the Horde (perhaps maybe later time)
3. Night Elves aren't in the Alliance
4. Tyrande doesn't relapse her views on the High/Blood Elves by the Highborne
5. Kael'thas doesn't join the Burning Legion and remains as their racial leader

but on the bottom point - Night Elves are supposed to have been savage like in WC3 and they should've been in the Horde in the first place

[ravenmoon]

it's funny because Shen'dralars were already with the Alliance since Cataclysm but the Alliance hating Blizzard moved a byproduct of it to the Horde and now the Horde fanboys want the magical night elf elements to themselves

Never mind the fact that Blood Elves and Nightborne effectively killed the true (with no capital letter) Horde spirit. But then again I also think that Night Elves should have been in the Horde anyway so what gives

Exactly, that's what i foind so incredulous - i mean, Suramar, pre-sundering civilization, night elf cities, Highborne, they've always been part of night elf lore and are night elf lore, but just because blizzard moves the Nightborne to the horde, the horde fan boys are re-writing lore, - night elves don't do arcane magic they say, and hate it (both false), night elves arne't highborne and hate cities (also both false), bsasically - great powerful magics and great beautiful cities that's exclusive properties of the horde - they're now ours because blizzard gave us nightborne. .. so how dare you want highborne or great elven cities? - if you get a city it should be all trees becasue night elf is just another name for forest elves - feral savage elves that roam the forest, with strong jaws waiting tear the flesh off of their prey.


I fweel night elves should have been there own faction, but without that, it would hav ebeen better for them development wise if they were on the horde - however .. if they had gone horde, we wouldn't have had the imbalance issues, and without those there wouldn't have been a massive horde drive from the devs.. so the jusry is out on that.

Night elves fit the alliance better, because they're not a savage race, they a highly civilized group who've emerged out of wilderness period, to reclaim their place now that their enemy returned and was defeated. There is no point now banning arcane magic or staying in solation, that's over. They're lawfully good too, benevolent - which all fits the alliance, and while they dont't start using arcane magic at that point, I always knew it had to come because it is part of the race itself as detailed quite extensively in the WC3 manual and in 3 volumes, just because it is mostly absent in the WC3 game (present in the Moonwells, Well of Eternity and priest Starfall spells) didn't mean that it's the lack of arcane magic that defined these elves - this is what some fans took it to be and that's why they have problems. Night elves were always going ot use arcane magic and start developing their cities again - making the alilance, the faction with both these things as major features the place for them.

However when blizzard realised no one wants to play the faction that lives in basically mudhuts, with nothing attractive or good - they had to fill it with a lot of that, hence the alliance race of high elves became playable as blood elves. And now for some reason horde BElf fans like Tanaria and Enigmaddict seem to think Nelf alliance fans are happy with living just in forests like Val'sharah, and having no powerful magic wielders - when their own very Nelf lore gave the best cities and the most powerful arcane users - like they'd not want to see some of that.

Now I know some Nelf fans don't care for that ither, they love the forest bits.. Good for you, but what makes you actually think that some of us don't want some variety and don't like really fancy powerful things too in the amgic department for us? I love the dark elf fantasy, and in wow the dark elves are good guys, i love htat, i'd love to see a Farondis attitude, noble highborne arcane user that's a dark elf - not a high elf, with it's distinctiveness. I love that they're night based, with the bright and beautiful stars and moon as their thing - it's clearly not the same as the sun based, gold themed day themed Thalassians and their very different life in the eastern kingdoms.

[Tanaria]

All this over pre-sundering night elf mages...?
I think Ravenmoon just wants to live in an imaginary pre-sundering night elf world and no other race exists. That way, the little night elf mages get some love, with uncontested competition.

Big cities, nice forests, everyone is transformed into a night elf and everyone who doesn't play a night elf, falls asleep for the whole expansion.

I think their is an illusion that night elf mages match the whole "everyone is passionate about Sylvanas, whether you love or hate her." When really, it's the same few people who write Monday-morning essays about how amazing night elf mages are, how they should triumph over every other race and how pretty their cities once were.

[Tuor]

I also think that Night Elves should have been in the Horde anyway so what gives

NElfs don't fit the horde at all, they not the kind of race that just jumps into mindless savegery, like Orcs. They did the oposite, for 10k years they refused to interact with other races, they only attacked by ambush, those that dared to get too close to Hyjal.

At worst, they would be their own faction, but never on the horde.

[yana]

Welcome to people like Enigmaddict and Tanaria - blood elf fans who I think secretly like night elves but feel fan loyalty to the horde so must oppose alliance efforts even outside the game - it's like sports fans, actually it's worse than sports fans.

Night elves (who have highborne) and race founding gensis based around the arcane - shouldn't have HIghborne, or night elven cities because it's on the horde.
High elves - long time original members of the first alliance, and still faithful to it (nvm Obelisk Kai's arguments) - shoudln't be available to the alliance because the horde has it.

It is utterly dumb, it has no logic, it is also not how the races in the game operate - they have what they have based on the lore blizzard has given them, lore that is intended to make them as diverse as possible so you have many options to roleplay as poossible. Night elves came in before wow, and from the get go were establisehd as a magical wielding race having 2 disintc t contrasting states juxtaposed - whether it's arcane/nature, civilised/savage, male/female edgy/benevolent it's their hallamark accross the board from start till current - magic runnign through as this tittle says.

It boils down to, my football club now has the cool race and the cool facilities and everyone looks at it as the best, everyone is jealosuy of it and wants it.. so therefore I don't want any one else to have it, that's it.

Meanwhile alliance fans are sittgin down and are like , why are our magic users, our warriors, our fighters all so lame, why is blizzard feeding us the crappier stuff for our own race.. this is not about getting what's the horde, why can't we be high elves, why are night elves sucking, why can't night elves have their wondrous civilization/city and powerful highborne mages, powerful Moonguard, powerful druids, powerful warriors and priests that feel like they are 10,000 year old battle hardened fierce race that inflicted the legion's first defeat. WC3 manual describes them as a titanic race?

What are most night elf complaints

night elfs suck
Night elves always lose
Night elves look crap
Night elves don't have cool stuff

1. most pre Legion quests were night elves constantly beaten and looking awful in game - not once do you see Night elves do powerful arcane magic like pre-sundering times, powerful druidic magic (for a race that can grow world trees and guide the evolution of the world) , not once do you see their archers and hunters in game quest doing physics defying feats that are humanly impossible, not once do you their priests in game do anything spectacular like in the novels or even WC3.

2. Not once in Warcraft have night elves won against the horde decisively until 8.1, they would barely survive, if not obliterated. In contrast, we see the horde races doing all the death defying feats taking on a race that is supposed to be legendary, titanic, and near immortal with ease as if they were novices (exempting the ones who were actually novices in Azshara zone).

3. Their models were great for classic, but come on, the BElves were so much better, however 6.0 came a chance to fix a lot of issues and make them look cool. end result? the y looked worse, all of a sudden females looked like men with ripped abs stomachs... males had neck posture issues and the inability to stand up straight compared to the classic model that wst straight, no cool hairstyles, faces, or beards were added (to the males at least, the females got a few), the graphical fidelity was poor compared to most other races (unfortunately for them trolls were in the same boat)

4. And the cool stuff? Well Legion brough a Nelf pre-sundering city that was cool, a lot of cool Nelf stuff as well whether in Suramar city, Moonguard stronghold, Azsuna, Black Rook hold, Vall'sharah , Demon Hunters - and not one of them is tied to the playable group, in fact the coolest thing, the city goes to the horde, with the very magical night elves of it, who look powerful in game, wihth the original version brushed aside, and guess what burnt /genocided.


This is the race that has the Nightborne, that has Suramar, greatest arcane wielders, greatest nature wielders, edgy as fuck elite demon hunters fabuolous temples to Elune, great forests, and yet they just find a way for it not to be associated to the actual playable group so they feel like some remnant that is hardly the night elves.

So when people think of the night elves, they see more the lame treehugger type, and the bouncy breast chick. - because all the cool stuff is either too few and far between, or is given over to the horde.

So when alliance lovers and players or at least the elven ones want some of their stuff from their lore showing and being cool on their faction, you get these goons coming to tell them they can't have them, or shouldn't have them.

then play a nightborne and be at peace, give it a rest buddy

[ravenmoon]

then play a nightborne and be at peace, give it a rest buddy

I do, still want to see the arcane side of the Night elves shown properly as the lore described them and looking good - looking different from the forest lot.

- - - Updated - - -

NElfs don't fit the horde at all, they not the kind of race that just jumps into mindless savegery, like Orcs. They did the oposite, for 10k years they refused to interact with other races, they only attacked by ambush, those that dared to get too close to Hyjal.

At worst, they would be their own faction, but never on the horde.

I agree on this one, but I can't help but think that on the horde they wouldn't have sucked so much just to "nerf" the alliance so players would pick horde more.

They are the big victims of the faction imbalance - but hey, that could change whenever blizzard decides right?

[Mace]

@Mace I saw you make a lot cool night elf posts, so I had this idea but I do not have really the inspiration to bring it to the end:

Edit: okay sorry not the best thread for this. It was definitely not intended to be fun or trolling or whatever. It was a serious request and I like mace posts... Why is everyone thinking intentions are automatically bad nowadays? :/

Well, this thread is the perfectly place for this

Besides, it's desires that people think are bad and don't want you to have them, because if you desire something they don't want you to have, you may actually get it, and they don't want that, worse you may inspire other people - it's a selfish attitude and it kills the game. Just because the horde were given alliance race versions of high elves and night elves with really cool stuff and shown off as powerful doesn't mean the alliance elves shouldn't have. In fact it's in their best interest if they also get cool stuff because they get happy, game looks better, players get cool stuff for their fantasy, and the horde stuff is still there for the hordies. But nope, they just love the alliance to suck. Fan rivalry I guess.

Even the ones on the alliance that want NElves purely forest - well, firstly that was never Nelves (the whole race has been half arcane/half nature & i'm not referring to the societies current spread), and secondly Nelf arcane wielders and cities looking good wouldn't change the Nelf druids from being foresty, and wildish types - you have nothing to fear. Don't let the horde fans who just don't want it ruin your day.

@New expansion: "insert title here that portrays the fall of factions and rise of the kaldorei"

Azshara somehow finds a way to heal/purge the naga curse from herself and her highborne. She somehow manages to convince Tyrande and Malfurion to be the good queen now and together they start forging a new Kaldorei empire. The night elves do not need the alliance anymore and this could bring WoW to a point of dropping the faction concept all together without losing the "war" in warcraft and so on. Wars go down more to race vs race all around the globe. Humans rage around in barrens against orcs, trolls unite with their forest trolls and rage against blood elves, undead eat themself and whatnot.

I've come to realise, what we end up getting lore wise is based on what blizzard want to do. This is a possible route if blizzard want the naga playable or naga based night elf sub-race. I must add it isn't necessary for night elves to have an empire to be formidable with both spell and bow - or to have a grand city (they really just need one) - blizz just need to show them kicking ass and being powerful with both arcane and nature and ranger/sentinels.

Now an empire or a kingdom is something that could happen within the alliance, but I think you and I both know this is unlikely in these two faction setting that essentially only focuses on 2 nations or rather two empires, the Horde Empire..oops federation, and the Alliance Kingdom ...oops human empire. However a serious contending nighte lf empire would definitely play out better outside the alliance, but play out best if it was a playable faction. However prepare for lots of twists and turns, factions, divisions, conflicts, complexities if Azshara was involved.

Either way it all depends on what you want out of the night elves but ultimately what happens is what the devs want and that could be driven by the playerbase, or game play factions and sometimes a desire to go in an interesting direction that returns the focus spot tot he night elves.

Personally
Personally I just would love to see night elves playing out like they're described in both the arcane , nature - at the very top of these fields, and their bow hunters/sentinels, Priests fighting like you'd expect a titanic, near immortal, magically imbued race fighting - i.e. BADASS (only DHs funnily enough are portrayed this way for Nelves -) and for once i'd love to see Night elves have a variety of looks and vibes - currently they have the forest vibe/look, but not only is that not all there is to them, it gets very boring after awhile, it's amazing to them looking edgy fel consumed or majestic, glorious - these are parts to them from the lore - it would be nice to see them this way. Same with their habitat, just in one setting is not enough and really not the full Night elf Kaldorei originally introduced with a great civilization past and a great foresty present. Kaldorei in a pristine NElf pre-sundering city in its grandeur would be awesome and nicely contrast and just for diffrrent flavour sake also in beautiful full forest unmarred by corruption, pillaging etc unlike basically every Nelf forest in game is. Just in ruins and forests gets a bit dull and depressing, and while demon hunters provide another type of setting, you definitely want nice racial city in addition to the other habitats.

The first of these is relatively easy for blizzard to do ofc. This is the showing night elves powerful all it takes for them to do is when they write night elves show up, the NPcs and their storylines need to have these guys awesome, show us non-legendary Nelves, lesser character Night elf priests, Highborne, druids doing some incredible stuff and like a BOSS on the battlefield. - currently in legion they made Tyrande/Malfurion/Illidan/Azshara like super powerful and everyone else is basically easily whipped even by a Vulpera kid.

New Home
The second, a new home can have several approaches to it.

Option 1:
A brand new night elf city - this would take work. Players would want a Zin'Azshari/ Suramar level of quality and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less than stunning. It's possible if the new Night elf home is going to be the centre of the story like Dazar'alor and Suramar were -- but wait, Suramar was a Night elf city and stunning too - they already did that recently. Nevertheless a new one would be too much work without it being something major in the expansion story that players are involved with, a raid and some instances were involved.

Option 2:
Use the Broken Isles and Suramar as the new capital - Suramar is already gorgeous and it's a night elf city, The broken isles is basically Night elves in a 4 zone nutshell. Suramar for the capital and magical military centre, Azsuna for the Highborne country and dwelling place, Val'Sharah for the druidic forest and world tree, Wardens have their vaults, the huntresses their lodge in Highmountain, the Sentinels and undead have the Black Rook hold fortress, the Priests have the Cathedral of Eternal Night as the Main temple with temples in each of the arcane and druid communities, while the broken shore has all the fel needs for a Demon hunter Night elven or even Illidari base.


It's perfect, it's already there, you need 0 new design zones, you did it and did it well in Legion for the night elves - except, The Nightborne are there and you took them and the isles horde.

So solution? Change the story! Easiest option by far, the assets are there, just use them. Suramar was saved by both factions afterall, and if you count the kaldorei race involvement and aid, including the Arcan'dor, you can see why people wanted it shared

A) Best option: Suramar becomes an Elven capital city, shared by Nightborne and Night elf alike - and you can write how, maybe it started with them taking faction sides, and realising they had more going for corporation than fighting based on hatreds other races like Forsaken, orcs, humans etc ran by. Maybe the Arcan'dor and Elune the Goddess were two unavoidable commonalities that drew the two groups together. Thalyssra in gesture of bold faith and compassion as a way to both soothe her kin and make up for the grievous atrocity the banshee inflicted - Welcomes ALL Kaldorei back home.

This could be made a lot more interesting if Suramar had factions within it that preferred the Night elven friendship and were appalled with the horde for the genocide in Northwestern Kalimdor, and were going to open their homes to the heroes who twice saved them from the Legion and once called Suramar home.

There is no reason why a peaceable option can't work and can't be interesting too, especially when you add a divided blood elf populace wanting to weigh in with some in favour and some against (not that they have any say), horde security concerns - but perhaps a defiant Thalyssra and a faction of elves that want elves together. Not apart.

I would add that a city share and corporation between the two night elf groups is both bold and the most likely from the point of view that NElves are really ancient beings, they share too much in common, when you think about it, the Nightborne only changed ear tip angles physically ( the rest of the abnormalities we have the Arcan'dor healing), everything else is Kaldorei civilization, city folk , Highborne and priests would know well - and druids have shown from Darnassus that they're not opposed to cities even though they prefer not to live in them.

Furthermore, they have much stronger bond that goes well past the squabbles of the horde and alliance which both NElves and NB are new too, meaning all the other stufff they share is far greater. NElves have been reconciling all their various asepcts, highborne and other Kaldorei started reconciling long ago, and work well, they also are the race that was most affected by the Legion, and now face extinction, they have motivation to want to heal the elven divide - which basically really doesn't exist between night elf and Nightborne, it's between Darnassian Kaldorei and Thalassian.

In this option, I easily see the Priests involved in the city, with their main cathedral off the repaired bridge but also the Order of elune would have many like their Wardens, Sentinels and other priests in other temples like the one in Val'Sharah and the one in Azsuna with the Wardens in their base of the Warden Vault and the Sentinels and military training fullswing in Black Rook hold. The Highborne ofc loving that city, launching their rebuilding of Azsuna and how to help the Farondis either live again or pass on. Effectively it's mostly highborne with the Nightborne in the city, the Nightborne numbers are also quite low after legion - so lots of room.

B): Conquest war: The Night elves invade and take back the isles and city, kicking the Nightborne out who have to flee to Silvermoon City, now opening grevious conflict between Highborne/Night elf and Nightborne/Blood elf. Another alternative is that the fighting leads to a stalemate of the city, with the Nelves in the outer sections and the Nightborne sealed off in the Nighthold palace section they're in - either eventually the two sides make up or it's just locked like that full of faction divide.

[Ardenaso]

NElfs don't fit the horde at all, they not the kind of race that just jumps into mindless savegery, like Orcs. They did the oposite, for 10k years they refused to interact with other races, they only attacked by ambush, those that dared to get too close to Hyjal.

At worst, they would be their own faction, but never on the horde.

Thrall's Horde post-RoC had already gone out with their "mindless savagery", also the Night Elves are more closer to Tauren and Darkspears than the Humans or Dwarves

[Tanaria]

New Home
The second, a new home can have several approaches to it.

Option 1:
A brand new night elf city - this would take work. Players would want a Zin'Azshari/ Suramar level of quality and wouldn't be satisfied with anything less than stunning. It's possible if the new Night elf home is going to be the centre of the story like Dazar'alor and Suramar were -- but wait, Suramar was a Night elf city and stunning too - they already did that recently. Nevertheless a new one would be too much work without it being something major in the expansion story that players are involved with, a raid and some instances were involved.

Option 2:
Use the Broken Isles and Suramar as the new capital - Suramar is already gorgeous and it's a night elf city, The broken isles is basically Night elves in a 4 zone nutshell. Suramar for the capital and magical military centre, Azsuna for the Highborne country and dwelling place, Val'Sharah for the druidic forest and world tree, Wardens have their vaults, the huntresses their lodge in Highmountain, the Sentinels and undead have the Black Rook hold fortress, the Priests have the Cathedral of Eternal Night as the Main temple with temples in each of the arcane and druid communities, while the broken shore has all the fel needs for a Demon hunter Night elven or even Illidari base.


It's perfect, it's already there, you need 0 new design zones, you did it and did it well in Legion for the night elves - except, The Nightborne are there and you took them and the isles horde.

So solution? Change the story! Easiest option by far, the assets are there, just use them. Suramar was saved by both factions afterall, and if you count the kaldorei race involvement and aid, including the Arcan'dor, you can see why people wanted it shared

A) Best option: Suramar becomes an Elven capital city, shared by Nightborne and Night elf alike - and you can write how, maybe it started with them taking faction sides, and realising they had more going for corporation than fighting based on hatreds other races like Forsaken, orcs, humans etc ran by. Maybe the Arcan'dor and Elune the Goddess were two unavoidable commonalities that drew the two groups together. Thalyssra in gesture of bold faith and compassion as a way to both soothe her kin and make up for the grievous atrocity the banshee inflicted - Welcomes ALL Kaldorei back home.

This could be made a lot more interesting if Suramar had factions within it that preferred the Night elven friendship and were appalled with the horde for the genocide in Northwestern Kalimdor, and were going to open their homes to the heroes who twice saved them from the Legion and once called Suramar home.

There is no reason why a peaceable option can't work and can't be interesting too, especially when you add a divided blood elf populace wanting to weigh in with some in favour and some against (not that they have any say), horde security concerns - but perhaps a defiant Thalyssra and a faction of elves that want elves together. Not apart.

I would add that a city share and corporation between the two night elf groups is both bold and the most likely from the point of view that NElves are really ancient beings, they share too much in common, when you think about it, the Nightborne only changed ear tip angles physically ( the rest of the abnormalities we have the Arcan'dor healing), everything else is Kaldorei civilization, city folk , Highborne and priests would know well - and druids have shown from Darnassus that they're not opposed to cities even though they prefer not to live in them.

Furthermore, they have much stronger bond that goes well past the squabbles of the horde and alliance which both NElves and NB are new too, meaning all the other stufff they share is far greater. NElves have been reconciling all their various asepcts, highborne and other Kaldorei started reconciling long ago, and work well, they also are the race that was most affected by the Legion, and now face extinction, they have motivation to want to heal the elven divide - which basically really doesn't exist between night elf and Nightborne, it's between Darnassian Kaldorei and Thalassian.

In this option, I easily see the Priests involved in the city, with their main cathedral off the repaired bridge but also the Order of elune would have many like their Wardens, Sentinels and other priests in other temples like the one in Val'Sharah and the one in Azsuna with the Wardens in their base of the Warden Vault and the Sentinels and military training fullswing in Black Rook hold. The Highborne ofc loving that city, launching their rebuilding of Azsuna and how to help the Farondis either live again or pass on. Effectively it's mostly highborne with the Nightborne in the city, the Nightborne numbers are also quite low after legion - so lots of room.

B): Conquest war: The Night elves invade and take back the isles and city, kicking the Nightborne out who have to flee to Silvermoon City, now opening grevious conflict between Highborne/Night elf and Nightborne/Blood elf. Another alternative is that the fighting leads to a stalemate of the city, with the Nelves in the outer sections and the Nightborne sealed off in the Nighthold palace section they're in - either eventually the two sides make up or it's just locked like that full of faction divide.

Can we start thinking about more practical and logical places?

Suramar isn't happening. What makes you think the night elves would stand any chance of waging war on Suramar? Not only do the Nightborne have the Highmountain Tauren next door, they can call upon their allies - the Blood Elves, to come and help them. Not only that, the other Horde races would also get involved.

Also, the Alliance races, barring Tyrande, signed the armistice - if she goes to war on the Nightborne, she does it alone, with her own forces. The Alliance would not help her. In fact, I'd say the Alliance races would stand against her and help the Nightborne - Suramar is their home. They've lived their for years. Why should the Nightborne suffer for night elf incompetence?

Also, 8.1 took place in Darkshore. So Tyrande took a boat from Stormwind to the Zoram Strand. Likely, she bypassed the Broken Isles on route and guess what - she didn't stop. She forged onwards to Darkshore. Do you really think she would take back lands of the Kaldorei, that have been in their hands, longer than the Azshara Empire, to then go to the Broken Isles and wage war on Thalyssra and the Nightborne? The only sensible places for a city, is a joint Mathystra, Lor'danel restored and Bashal'Aran.
The Night Elves will not leave Ashenvale and Darkshore again.

Also, Suramar is a reminder of the War of the Ancients as well as Elisande, being the next Azshara.

Why are you so obsessed over Night Elves and Nightborne being involved together? Haven't you heard the latest news...Nightborne and Blood Elves prefer each other's company in more ways than "friend-zoned" and Night Elves are angry and didn't sign the Horde armistice. Tyrande and Shandris left for the bows of Nordrassil to dispatch the Sentinels to every corner of Azeroth, to hunt Sylvanas.
What you want and the direction Blizzard is taking are not compatible. It's very clear that they don't want the Night Elves to have Suramar, but to make a home out of their forests, in North West, Kalimdor. That's fine. It's more than ok, that they do this. Night Elves have got their home.

So these ideas that you have are simply, just that - ideas. It's clear that these ideas conflict with the current direction of the night elves, which is good. I'd rather the Night Elves make a home for themselves in North Western, Kalimdor. Why? Because that is where they belong. Ashenvale, Darkshore, Hyjal - even Felwood...they are Kaldorei, which is how it's meant to be. I don't want Night Elves moving anywhere, which isn't close to Ashenvale. They don't feel like night elves, if I know they have completely moved away from Ashenvale and the Horde just move in and destroy it.

Also - Highborne/Night Elf numbers are also at a very low point, due to the burning of the tree. Nightborne have reliable allies, even if their numbers are low - which might be so, many of Elisande's loyalists also returned to Shalassian society after she died and Thalyssra welcomed them back. Night Elves don't have the numbers to be waging wars of conquest on the Shal'dorei and locking them into their city. You underestimate how much power the Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren have on the Broken Isles, with their Horde allies. The Night Elves have no power to lock the Nightborne in the Nighthold. The HMT can easily swoop down and remove their presence from the city. This isn't so much as a Night Elf vs Nightborne as it is, Night Elf vs Nightborne, Blood Elf and Highmountain Tauren, which the latter can easily win and oust in a matter of hours. Plus, Sin'dorei support which would happen as well - the night elves have got a cat in hell's chance of claiming Suramar's outer city

[Tuor]

Thrall's Horde post-RoC had already gone out with their "mindless savagery", also the Night Elves are more closer to Tauren and Darkspears than the Humans or Dwarves

Tyrande and Thrall had some sort of pact of non agression, but Garrosh broked the pact and returned back to the typical mindless savegery of the Orcs. Garrosh was the one to launch the assault on Ashenvale.

Yes, NElfs are really close to Tauren, don't think they are that close to Trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree on this one, but I can't help but think that on the horde they wouldn't have sucked so much just to "nerf" the alliance so players would pick horde more.

They are the big victims of the faction imbalance - but hey, that could change whenever blizzard decides right?

I hope not, but as you, it's Blizzard's Lore, they can do whatever they wish with it.

[Mace]

Snip

I'm not sure you understand game development. There is no more practical and logical place than Suramar.

It is only illogical to you because you want Suramar exclusively on the horde and don't like the idea of the opposite faction getting a stunningly beautiful city that blizzard decided your faction could have. But you forget, that it was non lore reasons that took both the blood elves and Suramar to the horde, you don't need existing lore reasons to make it stay there.

You argue to kingdom come, like Obelisk Kai did about high elves, at the end of the day, lore is usually made up for whatever blizzard wants to do. They made up lore so the blood elves you love so much could be on the horde. They did not design Suramar oor the Ngihtborne to be on the horde either, but they made up lore for it to go there, and can do otherwise.


Look at it from their development point of view. They designed a Night elf pre-sundering city, made it stunningly beautiful and made 4 of the 6 Broken Isle zones focused on night elf lore - initially it was supposed to be all, but they felt it would get too boring if it was all night elven so made HM - Tauren and SM Vrykul.


What are they supposed to do to give NElves a new home and a beautiful capital? Spend time re-designing one when they made an incredible design in the Broken Shore? Suramar was a lot of work, and it is the standard people want - they are faced with two options, spend huge resources on a new city, which I reckon will only be possible if they make a new expansion that has the Night elves once more at the heart of it, and it justifies doing a new master piece, or they simply write a story for the Night elves to be in Suramar.

I know writing a story is much easier, using assets already there. Suramar, is there's to use however they want. They will likely make it a city that is shared between the two, or redo Silvermoon first and then make room for the Nightborne there, by building a Nightborne extension.

the night elves have got a cat in hell's chance of claiming Suramar's outer city

I'm being practical and logical. Of all the races around, what do you think blizzard would do first? Give night elves a different home when they already designed a great Night elven city, or redo Silvermoon and Exodar City up first?

Is it not far more likely forsaken will get something like Ice Crown citadel and Night elves Suramar than actual new places?

If you can't think practically you are kidding yourself girl. Neither of us know what will happen, but anything can, anything, when you can write whatever progression, there are other factors that take precedence, Suramar is a perfect night city, and the broken isles ideal for the night elves to make a home and capital, shared or alone.

[Lahis]

I'm not sure you understand game development. There is no more practical and logical place than Suramar.

It is only illogical to you because you want Suramar exclusively on the horde and don't like the idea of the opposite faction getting a stunningly beautiful city that blizzard decided your faction could have. But you forget, that it was non lore reasons that took both the blood elves and Suramar to the horde, you don't need existing lore reasons to make it stay there.

You argue to kingdom come, like Obelisk Kai did about high elves, at the end of the day, lore is usually made up for whatever blizzard wants to do. They made up lore so the blood elves you love so much could be on the horde. They did not design Suramar oor the Ngihtborne to be on the horde either, but they made up lore for it to go there, and can do otherwise.


Look at it from their development point of view. They designed a Night elf pre-sundering city, made it stunningly beautiful and made 4 of the 6 Broken Isle zones focused on night elf lore - initially it was supposed to be all, but they felt it would get too boring if it was all night elven so made HM - Tauren and SM Vrykul.


What are they supposed to do to give NElves a new home and a beautiful capital? Spend time re-designing one when they made an incredible design in the Broken Shore? Suramar was a lot of work, and it is the standard people want - they are faced with two options, spend huge resources on a new city, which I reckon will only be possible if they make a new expansion that has the Night elves once more at the heart of it, and it justifies doing a new master piece, or they simply write a story for the Night elves to be in Suramar.

I know writing a story is much easier, using assets already there. Suramar, is there's to use however they want. They will likely make it a city that is shared between the two, or redo Silvermoon first and then make room for the Nightborne there, by building a Nightborne extension.


I'm being practical and logical. Of all the races around, what do you think blizzard would do first? Give night elves a different home when they already designed a great Night elven city, or redo Silvermoon and Exodar City up first?

Is it not far more likely forsaken will get something like Ice Crown citadel and Night elves Suramar than actual new places?

If you can't think practically you are kidding yourself girl. Neither of us know what will happen, but anything can, anything, when you can write whatever progression, there are other factors that take precedence, Suramar is a perfect night city, and the broken isles ideal for the night elves to make a home and capital, shared or alone.

You are ignoring the simple fact that Nightborne and thus Suramar ARE HORDE.

Horde, who are the enemies of the Alliance where Night Elves are. No matter the outcome and armistice after BFA, it will only take one or two expansion (or no time at all like the MoP to WoD transition) before there is an all out war between the factions again. You simply cannot share the city in a situation like that.

[ravenmoon]

I hope not, but as you, it's Blizzard's Lore, they can do whatever they wish with it.

Something it apparently seems some fans appear not to get. Looking at you Tanaria. @Mace, he reminds me of Obelisk Kai - and doesn't seem to get, that blizzard is not above doing things players regard as impossible - like they did when they took the blood elves horde. And why is it impossible? it never was, arbitrary made up reason in fictional lore when it's a person that is writing the lroe and can write whatever happens. They could wipe out all the races except humans, and only a remnant of adventurers from other races remain - if they wanted.

paraphrase "the Night elves will never get my Suramar

If I were a neutral blizzard development, looking to fulfil new home criteria and development. At the top of the list of wants is Silvermoon redone and Quel'thalas updated. A night elf new home yes, I have options, but am I really going to sink development time into building a brand new city for them that players hardly use if it's not going to play some major role in an expansion, given I already did a masterpiece recently.
I am far more likely to make a place for the Nightborne in Silvermoon, or make the Nightborne and Night elves share (which has interesting possibilities for the story), than build a new home.

Tbh, in my opinion it is greed and possessive jealousy a bit unwarranted that is causing you to be against this so strongly. When blood elves and Nightborne were being put on the horde, I could understand a bit more alliance high elves and night elves not wanting to share because until that point these are races and fantasy exclusive to the alliance and they don't fit the horde theme or purpose, if someone was posting in forums asking for them to be horde, they'd be like you and Obelisk Kai declaring not a fat chance in hell, all the lore reasons they they're not or don't fit, but none of those mattered. There is a degree of greed and jealous possessiveness from the alliance fans, but wanting their own unique faction identity in tact was a more understandable sentiment when the elves hadn't crossed over the line or the pandaren hadn't and both factions were unique.
However once that seized to be the case, it is a bit stunning to vehemently oppose or not want alliance fans to have neither high elven stuff, which includes appearanceand assets, or the night elven stuff that was given tot he horde. THe night elf stuff is even more silly, because the night elf is the core race and is firmly on thealliance for a long time, if you r only real reason for not wanting Suramar share is because it's now horde and that made you happy (which I suspect is the case), then while I can understand it I don't sympathise because what you have is night elven stuff there, so all these posts opposing night elve getting something stunning or beautiful ike "their own racial city" the place of birth of some of their most famous characters and where the playable faction's group mostly come from - just because blizzard happened to take the Nightborne horde is not a good enough reason for me either.
1. The Nightborne don't have to have Suramar to remain horde.
2. The Nightborne don't have to remain exclusively horde either

Night elf wasn't a horde race to begin with, so you can play some of them on the horde, you expect magical night elf assets to be horde exclusive now just because of that? so you are fine with blizzard sharing an alliance faction race with yoou, but not fine with the alliance night elves having some of their own racial assets.. right.

Can we start thinking about more practical and logical places?

Mace is correct here Tanaria, practical and logical places are decided based on design and development reasons. As for lore reasons, you should know anything is possible, and there is grounds for a new place in many locations as well as in Suramar itself. None are more logical or practical than another.

There are reasons you can argue for and against any place, whether Gilneas, Feralas, Naz'jatar, Suramar, Crystalsong, Duskwood etc etc - notice the places I mentioned just now have either connection with night elf lore (i.e. NElf based zones) or are thematic with the druidic side of night elves.

Everyone can list their proos and cons on why they would like this one over the other. Most wow players won't care - but if blizz put night elves in a sucky place they wouldn't like it, and it would just be one more disappoint thing even if it didn't bother them that much, if it was an amazing place, they'd like it and it scores as something cool, even if they didn't care.

The hardcores like yourself (and formerly me) are where all the passion comes out, You would argue for nearly any location but Suramar, because you feel it belongs to your faction exclusively right?, but it's a night elf city, and your Nightborne are a night elven race, all they have comes from the race in the other faction - don't you think it's a b it illogical to expect it to somehow be totally off grounds? - it's just the sort of thing to shock players. because their passions have effectively blinded them so they don't see certain obvious choices because they don't want to.

Wanna bet when Suramar was built the aim was for the Nigiht elves to move in there? Why do I suspect so? Well, WoT was already known to be coming, Kaldimor would go horde majority, so blizzard would use the night elf zones they built including a pre-sundering city to host the night elves whose homes they knew they were going to destroy (having planning 2 expansions ahead and all, BFA's plot was probably known in WoD). So when the unexpected step to make the Nightborne a playable allied race comes, and they go horde, well, that makes that a bit awkward to implement now.

but at the end of the day , it's just story, whether or not the night elves have it or Nightborne, the cities use is for the legion quests right, and if the horde have NB, that's all they need, NB don't have to have a city there forever, I mean, did you see NElves in Darnassus forever? no, or humans in lordaeron ? no..

It's just plot devices.


I agree with mace, that many more people will be happy with Silvermoon being built and focused on first, a new Silvermoon could have room for the Nightborne entirely, if the night elves were to indeed have Suramar instead of building them a new one, or the nightboren and night elves could share - I mean seeing the elf races are already shared, does sharing the city seem so outlandish.