Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[qwerty123456]

Yes, actually, it does. Context is everything in this case. As has been spelled out countless times already...you know..that FACTS that you seem to want to place emphasis on: There were no prior arrangements. There is no standing social contract that obligates people to give their drops to random PUGs just because it's an upgrade.



Ok...wow.

So I guess the raid leader is the ultimate arbiter of whatever is and isn't correct now? I take it from your statement that you're perfectly ok with raid leaders extorting and coercing loot from players under threat of being kicked from the raid, even AFTER the loot has dropped/been rolled for? Despite the FACT that there was no such mention, even in passing, that such a thing could or would be possible when joining?

I'm completely in favor of fair and correct use of Master Loot. But it sounds like you just want to return to the days of raid leaders fucking people over. You are quickly losing credibility with such an implication, so maybe you want to clarify before you take another bite out of the foot that's in your mouth.




Holy shitballs. Really? It's the OP "causing trouble" when it was the hunter who initiated the interaction, then went on to act rudely after he/she didn't get their way.

You know that credibility I mentioned earlier that you were losing? Yeah, it's gone. We're done here.

EDIT: BTW, speaking of credibility, unless your name is Imdrunkontea, you should probably credit the artist of your thumbnail in your signature, and not crop the artists name out of the picture while you're at it.

1st off I have never once tried to pass off my Avi as my own creation and the image has the artists signature on it. It's nice that you gotta try to throw insults and change the topic though. Pretty easy to see when someone is losing an argument when they do that.


See below response for response for more info so I don't have to respond twice.

I did most certainly not cause trouble knowingly, because at the time i still believe it to be a non issue (wanting to keep the loot tha I specifically joined for). It is also kinda irritating to me that you seem to judge me by my morals, yet suggest to flat out lie as a better solution. (saying i would trade it later and than leaving without doing so)

I'm not judging you by your morals. I was just pointing out to the idiots(not you) that kept insisting it wasn't a selfish act when by every definition of the word it is. And several times already I said you were completely justified keeping the loot. @Saltysquidoon @Mehrunes @Monster Hunter @Raelbo By "correctly" I mean you getting more possibilities for loot. And I only used that word in the First place because @SirCowdog had. You don't rock the boat intentionally when you are not in control of a situation. The initial response from you was perfectly fine as you didn't know the hunter was going to be a lil bitch. So the "correct" response after would be to either leave right away and not deal with that shit, or deescalate the situation either by lying or finding a solution where the hunter possibly gets the item and you still get an azerite piece to scrap. I'm not justifying anything the hunter and others did clearly the hunter should have sucked it up and not thrown a tantrum I was just pointing out things the op could have done that would have lead to a better outcome. He can't control other people but he can his own actions if he ever were to get in a situation like this again.

[Mehrunes]

Calls my post shit posting. States if it happen in real life would be a crime.
What? Swearing at someone because you didn't like their reason for saying no isn't a crime (at least in the US).

Yeah, no. It's neither the swearing nor the disliking hearing a no because of reasons that @Saltysquidoon likened to a crime. It's, you know, all the rest. Like trying to pressure someone to part with their private possession to the point of getting an authority figure you're a pal with to punish them for not conceding to your baseless and wrong demands. Which was extremely obvious.

[Darththeo]

Yeah, no. It's neither the swearing nor the disliking hearing a no because of reasons that @Saltysquidoon likened to a crime. It's, you know, all the rest. Like trying to pressure someone to part with their private possession to the point of getting an authority figure you're a pal with to punish them for not conceding to your baseless and wrong demands. Which was extremely obvious.

Nope. Try again. Try again to everything. I am not responding until you read. You don't get to call me out of stuff when you are guilty of it.

[Luxeley]

I don't entirely understand your argument... "The kind, decent and team player thing ..." how is that a team player thing? He is specifically going into the raid for Titan Residuum in order to maybe get an new item from the Residuum Trader. This new item is going to help his guild with their HC/Mythic raids. So if he gives the item to some random guy who is not in the guild, then he is actually working against the team.

So in other words, your entire argument is falling in on itself.

- - - Updated - - -



It didn't get him there after he cleared the entire raid. Since this happened after killing Vexiona he probably still had Raden, Carapace and Nzoth... Maybe even more. In the end what could have happened is him trading the item away, while getting more items from the other bosses and then being 200 Residuum short because he traded the item from Vexiona.

Besides, it is his item. As such it is not a dick move. The only thing that would MAYBE be a dick move is to sell the item for gold (which you cant do anyways with Azerite Armor). Everything else, even transmog, would be completely fine and in his right.

When you enter a group, it's basically all for one and one for all. It's called being decent, acting neighborly. There is no written contract you have to, but it promotes something much better than me and mine. My argument and advice is dead on target. The guy has the right to ask and/or trade for the gear and the other person has the right to refuse him. And, the guy who asked for the gear didn't offer a trade and definitely rallied allies to his cause which is trashy as well.

[AlmightyGerkin]

What do people not get about the term PERSONAL LOOT. It is your choice to keep it or trade it. You're not obligated at all to immediately give it away. Only asshole is the hunter cause he didn't get it. Boohoo that is how the game is. Going to take a page out of a certain guild that cheated a buyer out of his item he paid for and not loot the boss if it dropped the item I wanted. No drama no whispering "Do you need" .0005s after I loot it, nothing at all.

[baskev]

Salute o7

So to start things off im still fairly convinced that I am in fact not the bad guy, but considering 12 people just told me i am a dick and only 1 guy was on my side I feel like sharing my story, or ranting, you name it.

Ill respond after every point.

After missing my guilds hc raid this week and sitting at ~4600 titan residium i decided to join a hc nyalotha raid to try grab any azerite piece for its scrap value. (my char is currently sitting at ilvl 475 so i dont need anything else in there) Vexiona dropped her headpiece and immideatly afterwards i got whispered by a hunter if i was so kind to trade it to him, considering i allready have Carapace Loot and would most likely not need it.

If you do not need it. And he might need it. And he asked nicely he was in the right to ask. But it all depends on the loot of this random group.

I declined and got called out in raid chat for being a selfish dick. At that point i was like i was like "eh, is that guy serious?" but people were kinda quick to side with him. Arguments were being made for me to just wait for next reset because i was sure to receive enough residium to just be guaranteed to buy a piece of gear that only had a chance to be an upgrade while our groups hunter was guaranteed an upgrade (if i traded him).

Again, depens on the rules you guys made upfront. If they said its master loot etc.
And yes it would be nice of you to trade it. If its a good upgrade for him.

I pretty much did not react in chat, only thing i typed was that the sole reason i joined the raid in the first place was for a few shots at 200 residium so i could try get an upgrade at the azerite vendor. (i failed at that btw, not that it would matter)

You could have done other things to get the residium. And a change at....
So you did not want to trade a upgrade for a other group member, for currency that might give you a upgrade. A thing you could also get next week.......
yeah i can see why they did not like it.
But again...its all about the rules of the group.

Either way, raid leader (being premade with the hunter) told me to either give the headpiece to his hunter friend or be kicked. Told him that i still dont see a reason to to do so and got shafted. After being kicked one pala heal whispered me saying he would not even have a problem if i decided to keep the item for transmog purposes.

THey have a right to kick you. if its okay....yeah....see below.

What are your thoughts? The group i joined were mostly randoms (4 guys from one guild) and still seemed to agree that i was being selfish.

Edit: a few things that people keep asking

1st: I did not know any of these people nor did i get informed about any loot rules or special purpose of the raid (like trying to catch up people that a behind on gear)

2nd: the exact echange between the hunter and me was the following:

https://imgur.com/IAZAcqQ

3rd: I did not initially pick this one up because frankly i did not matter to me, the hunter did fine for his gear, though he was the weakest DPS, and yes, he would have profited from the upgrade. DPS numbers (there was another hunter above me at 113k dps, i am #2 the hunter this post is about is #10) were:

https://imgur.com/d0VCUU4

- weird there where no loot roles and you did not ask for them....thats kinda question 101 you ask before starting. I have never joined a group without knowing the loot rules. and never heard about it. So......kinda doubtful.

- his response was not bad. If i see someone holding on the a very low upgrade i would be piss also.

- you do not show what spec that hunter is. Or what gear that hunter has. Maybe the nr 10 hunter is x amount gear points behind. And was this 1 of his major upgrade pieces. And dps should not matter to get gear. If its to high or to low.



So....looking at your story...you do not show the other hunts dps...witch is weird...why do not show nr1?
You say there where no loot rules. What is stupid and i do not believe. Because a hc raid always has loot rules. Even more so with randoms. And if you do not know the rules you should always ask.

And you kept a upgrade ( a good one if i read you correct) from a other person. Because you wanted a bit more residium to maybe have a change at the rng table.

Not saying you are wrong or right. It was your loot, and you had a decent reason. But you could and should have asked about the rules for loot. And would have been nicer to share it.

[Great Destiny Man]

I'm not judging you by your morals. I was just pointing out to the idiots(not you) that kept insisting it wasn't a selfish act when by every definition of the word it is. And several times already I said you were completely justified keeping the loot. @Saltysquidoon @Mehrunes @Monster Hunter @Raelbo By "correctly" I mean you getting more possibilities for loot. And I only used that word in the First place because @SirCowdog had. You don't rock the boat intentionally when you are not in control of a situation. The initial response from you was perfectly fine as you didn't know the hunter was going to be a lil bitch. So the "correct" response after would be to either leave right away and not deal with that shit, or deescalate the situation either by lying or finding a solution where the hunter possibly gets the item and you still get an azerite piece to scrap. I'm not justifying anything the hunter and others did clearly the hunter should have sucked it up and not thrown a tantrum I was just pointing out things the op could have done that would have lead to a better outcome. He can't control other people but he can his own actions if he ever were to get in a situation like this again.

I agree if someone's threatening to boot you over these kind of matters you're better off just leaving before the threat materialises. Even if you wanted to resolve amicably by trading the item I can't say I'd trust a RL to act honourably when prior actions by him and the hunter were childish.

- - - Updated - - -

- weird there where no loot roles and you did not ask for them....thats kinda question 101 you ask before starting. I have never joined a group without knowing the loot rules. and never heard about it. So......kinda doubtful.

Eh? Asking for loot rules was prudent when ML was available to PuGs (primarily to combat ninja looting) but this has not been a thing for a long time. If you choose to do it that's on you but I can assure you this is not the norm for PuGs.

[Shango]

You could have done other things to get the residium. And a change at....

- weird there where no loot roles and you did not ask for them....thats kinda question 101 you ask before starting. I have never joined a group without knowing the loot rules. and never heard about it. So......kinda doubtful.

So....looking at your story...you do not show the other hunts dps...witch is weird...why do not show nr1?

You say there where no loot rules. What is stupid and i do not believe. Because a hc raid always has loot rules. Even more so with randoms. And if you do not know the rules you should always ask.

Regarding loot rules for me it is acutally the opposite, usually there are no rules in my pugs and until now i ever even felt like asking in the first place.

Regarding other sources of residium, i can guarantee you no i could not (pvp conequest is uo to current reward and i allready had a mythic id with my guild, also hc darkshore was not up either), at least no 460 piece of azerite only a bunch of 445 in like mythic 0 dungeons (and the same scenario could arise in that case)

Regarding me not linking the other hunters DPS, i can provide a screenshot of my interface, with my settings my dmg meter is set to only display 9 rows, only way to include me and the hutner this post is about was to exclude the top dps (i still listed how much he did though)

@qwerty123456 i reread your post and have to apologize, when i replied to you i still had another persons reply in my mind and mixed them up, sorry for doing that.

[jackofwind]

ITT: Every time you loot anything for yourself, from a raid item to a piece of garbage off a mob, you're being selfish because you could have given that item or the gold from it to someone else.

Give your fucking head a shake.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope. Try again. Try again to everything. I am not responding until you read. You don't get to call me out of stuff when you are guilty of it.

You literally just responded to him. All of you guys arguing semantics in circles while furiously jerking yourselves off need to just chill and take a step back from this thread.

[Darththeo]

ITT: Every time you loot anything for yourself, from a raid item to a piece of garbage off a mob, you're being selfish because you could have given that item or the gold from it to someone else.

Give your fucking head a shake.

It depends on context. The reason OP didn't share the gear was because they came into the raid solely for a chance at better gear ... thus selfish.
If OP down say an elite and it dropped a piece of gear and no one else where there, there is no one else there at that time. That wouldn't be selfish to do whatever with that piece. Now in the current system he could be viewed as selfish for not waiting for someone else to tag the mob to share it, but let's keep things to gear/loot here.

[jackofwind]

It depends on context. The reason OP didn't share the gear was because they came into the raid solely for a chance at better gear ... thus selfish.
If OP down say an elite and it dropped a piece of gear and no one else where there, there is no one else there at that time. That wouldn't be selfish to do whatever with that piece. Now in the current system he could be viewed as selfish for not waiting for someone else to tag the mob to share it, but let's keep things to gear/loot here.

Nah, everyone can use gold. Items vendor for gold. Therefore anyone keeping anything for themselves is a selfish act. Selfish selfish selfish!

Don't keep anything ever if you don't want to do something selfish!

[Darththeo]

Nah, everyone can use gold. Items vendor for gold. Therefore anyone keeping anything for themselves is a selfish act. Selfish selfish selfish!

Don't keep anything ever if you don't want to do something selfish!

In the strictest sense, yes, everything humans do is selfish on some level ... even helping people we often do so because we feel better to do so. So everyone has a line where they draw the line on what they consider to be a selfish act.

[jackofwind]

In the strictest sense, yes, everything humans do is selfish on some level ... even helping people we often do so because we feel better to do so. So everyone has a line where they draw the line on what they consider to be a selfish act.

Yep, and circlejerking over the semantics of selfishness is selfish too, so how about you just let it die already.

[Darththeo]

Yep, and circlejerking over the semantics of selfishness is selfish too, so how about you just let it die already.

nah /10chars

[jackofwind]

nah /10chars

And that, Ladies and Gents, sums up the thread.

Thanks for coming out, see you tomorrow for more of the same shit.

[Mehrunes]

Nope. Try again. Try again to everything. I am not responding until you read. You don't get to call me out of stuff when you are guilty of it.

Guilty of what? Your reply to @Saltysquidoon's remark about how the situation from the OP would be a crime if it happened IRL was literally stating that "Swearing at someone because you didn't like their reason for saying no isn't a crime". This is an outright quote (with the rest of that entire post being a counter-accusation of "shitposting" and throwing their claim - that I described above - back at them, both of which were beside the main point of your post, i.e. what I addressed). Which not only deliberately omits half of what happened (you know, the entire drama about loot that went way past just swearing), it omits the half that they were quite obviously referring to. Your remark that I haven't read the post I replied to in what you quoted is utterly without merit. This is getting rather desperate on your part.

And given your "try to everything" inquiry, let's go through everything and review my previous post as well (at least everything where I "called you out" on something) then:

1) Not what @Raelbo said.

This is a post where @Raelbo said that the OP was entitled to a share of loot. And here's you flat out admitting you originally misread that.

3) Also not what @Raelbo said.

Same post in regards to what they said (i.e. that the behavior of the RL is never OK). And your reply where you asked them why the RL should have continued to raid with the OP even though it has nothing to do with @Raelbo passing moral judgement on the RL's actions.

Except @Raelbo said "loot", not "gear". You're putting words in their mouth again.

Here's you talking about the OP not being entitled to gear. Even though the claim you were replying to was about loot (which, since it matters in the context, mirrors their original post on the matter).

So, I tried to everything as you insisted. Everything I "called you out" on is (still) correct. Your attempt at saving face with your dismissive answer that addressed nothing because actual arguments are passe and instead hoping I simply won't bother backfired. I'm not sure if you desired this result or not, but either way I hope you're happy with my compliance and the egg on your face.

[SirCowdog]

My issue with this thread is more people saying that the RL has the 'right' to kick someone (as opposed to the power) for no reason more than the actual conduct. Because they are implying that they would be fine with it if it happened to them when clearly anyone would be at least annoyed to be on the receiving end of that conduct which makes their posts at best a self-delusion and at worst just directly a lie.

Having a RL determine who joins a raid, with kick and some loot power has been the staple of organized groups in MMORPGs for a LOOOOOG time. The reason for that is because it not only works, but because that's the nature of the game mode: Custom groups. Having the ability to fully control a group for you and your friends is a necessary component of gaming in a lot of ways.

Granted, this is complicated by the nature of loot and raid lockouts. But I'm not sure there's a good way to correct the situation that hasn't already been done. As much as I dislike forcing personal loot on the entire game, in this case it seems to have functioned as the insurance against fuckery that otherwise would have happened. The OP got the loot he deserved for contributing to a random group of players. The Raid Leader got to enforce the desired composition of players that he and his friends wanted. That seems equitable.

I don't condone the attempt to coerce the loot out of the OP by threatening a raid kick. But that was an empty threat. And there's not an in-game system built anywhere that can stop people from being A-holes. So in this case I think that, despite all the arguing back and forth, things worked out about as well as they could have.

[arkanon]

I don't condone the attempt to coerce the loot out of the OP by threatening a raid kick. But that was an empty threat.

OP didnt hand over the loot, and was kicked from the group.

[SirCowdog]

1st off I have never once tried to pass off my Avi as my own creation and the image has the artists signature on it. It's nice that you gotta try to throw insults and change the topic though. Pretty easy to see when someone is losing an argument when they do that.

Using an artists creation without crediting them(and probably without permission) is almost as bad. That's not an insult. That's a fact. And an important one when we're talking about civility and proper behavior, whether it's a raid in WoW or using someone else's art.

Basically a this point you're still arguing about a technicality of the definition of a word. Everyone with any sense agrees that the OP was in the right by keeping the loot. But you're stuck on this "selfish" point.

Ok? Yes, the OP was a little bit selfish. Happy now?

- - - Updated - - -

OP didnt hand over the loot, and was kicked from the group.

And?

As I said, where's the actual harm? The OP could just join another raid if he wanted. The RL had no power to actually get the loot from the OP. Which, in a PUG situation, is exactly how it should be.

[arkanon]

And?

As I said, where's the actual harm? The OP could just join another raid if he wanted. The RL had no power to actually get the loot from the OP. Which, in a PUG situation, is exactly how it should be.

Im pointing out it wasnt an empty threat. They followed through with the threat and took action. Thats all im saying.