So... thats why burst dps is bad for the game 29 fire mages HC

[Gurg]

Just want to say that BfA gearing system was a fail even from its beta. Pretty much every "influencer" (uhh this word gives me chills) streamer, as well as us with lower voice, provided tons and tons of feedback why Azerite system was nice on paper but it would never work in real application.
They ignored us. System failed.
To scrap it from utter failure early on in expansion they added additional outer ring. Which then just brought to light already lingering problem of badly designed and poorly balanced traits.
This brought into the light few classes that were beforehand perform inline, but again, high on the meters by boosting them further and pushing them into "meta".

As Azerite Gear system was dead in the water they decided to add another layer of progression, essences.
Again, interesting designs behind them, but the way that they interacted with the classes was not balanced (nor it can be tbh) which again boosted power for some specs even further.

Finally, nail in the gearing coffin for this expansion was corruption system and its ability to buy SPECIFIC corruption that you need.
Ability to buy specific corruption further more highlighted already "broken" classes that benefit from extreme amount of stats, previously unreachable (or hardly reachable) by normal gameplay.

Looking at it, you have 3 different "borrowed power" systems on top of each other, noting that this was never seen before previously in a expansion, and thats NOT counting in Trinkets, which are story on its own. Soo.. what did you (we) expect in end-expansion point with gearing system that was doomed to failed even before its implementation, but it was band-aided few times with even more borrowed power? Some balance maybe?

Yeeea, tell that to Bear druids and Blood DKs with 6TD stacks too. Not just burst classes.
Im playing feral with 3TD stacks, simply just by respecin into bear, without any gear changes, my TD procs wipe the floor in AOE and do spike damage that i cant even get close to with feral. I know its not best example, but its example of how broken current systems are.

Gearing system was bad from the start, with so much "borrowed power" in place its natural that the game will be "broken" in a way it is now.

Is it ok? OFC not. But i also dont see the reason to rework core of some classes that perform exceptionally well in end-expansion point with several "borrowed power" broken systems on top of it. I do, however, think that burst classes need a bit of rebalancing in their damage dealing windows.
I can just hope that blizz learned its lesion and same thing wont repeat in upcoming expansions.

[LordVargK]

No they cant because although Destro Lock can pull some big numbers they have nowhere near the same burst potential as Fire mage. Only Fire mages can do this. You might say you're "pretty sure" but you are just pretty wrong.

Wait a few weeks. once everyone has BiS Corruption and mythic gear, you can run pretty much anything this way.

They did the whole raid like this. Do you know what you're talking about?

Sorry, I watched another video on another side, that only features Drest'agath and those mages. Thought that was the same.

[kaminaris]

But it is irrelevant. You're talking about a situation that doesn't happen, at all, outside very controlled environments.

You're taking a video of very experienced and skilled fire mages (at least according to their parses) intentionally grouping together to kill heroic bosses who went through several nerfs already, and those fire mages likely are decked out in M+15's and mythic raid gear already.

Have you noticed that this kind of thing never happens at the beginning or middle of a raid tier? It's always at the end, at the very least.

No, because of that, fire mage is also much better than practually any other spec so it is more desirable than other specs.
Also in mythic. I've already explained that.

That 29 mage tower was exaggerated example to show how much the amount of fire mages affects fights.

- - - Updated - - -

Just want to say that BfA gearing system was a fail even from its beta. Pretty much every "influencer" (uhh this word gives me chills) streamer, as well as us with lower voice, provided tons and tons of feedback why Azerite system was nice on paper but it would never work in real application.
They ignored us. System failed.

No you have no idea what you are talking about. Azerite system is not a problem at all.

[Nnyco]

Burst dps is always a problem in this game, it happend in hfc with that stupid ring and it happens again with fire mages.

[devilzxlin]

it is not a general problem.fire mage was more desirable than other classes. aion online is also a great mmorpg games.Aion Kinah, the currency used in Aion is a very important aspect of the game. Without enough of it, players can easily run into a dead end. Kinah is used for buying skills, items, traveling

[Tradu]

The problem is that burst specs and sustained specs are tuned to do the same overall DPS. That means burst specs are just inherently better because they can focus all their damage into nullifying mechanics/phases, benefit from specific kill times(faster kills in general, or kills that happen soon after their CDs) and suffer much less from downtime outside of their CDs. There has to be a downside to compensate for those advantages.
If sustained DPS specs actually did more overall damage like they should to compensate for not having the advantages of burst, it wouldn't be as bad, but Blizzard refuses to make that happen(or is incapable of doing so).

[Craaazyyy]

Destro is the same garbage. 150k-200dps during infernal, 30k-40k dps outside of infernal. If you get targeted for certain mechanics during the burst window, say goodbye to your parse.

it's also extremely annoying to play an undergeared destro in world content.. like without cds killing shit is extremely annoying

- - - Updated - - -

it is not a general problem.fire mage was more desirable than other classes

yea it is, many other classes/specs are designed in a way that they do insane damage with cds and much lower damage outside of cds.. which is stupid

[Zeek Daniels]

I really dont understand why ppl are complaining. This is the last patch of the xpac. Its not like this was going on for the whole expansion. Infact it just started happening because of corruption stacking something that was just introduced this patch. Also the fact that you can have a higher corruption cap overtime ment that we were going to see some crazy dps combo's come with it that were not going to be possible otherwise.

You know how blizzard likes to nerf things before a new expac comes out so more ppl get boss kills. This corruption stacking is that nerf. Every week you can wear higher and higher levels of corruption and blizz doesnt have to put out 5% hp nerfs or dmg nerfs so ppl can get mythic kills.

[dewd]

almost every spec feels and perform shit outside of their cd. fire, retribution, feral and arcane are the worst in my eyes

[Saltysquidoon]

This is really an issue that super fights and gear dependant.

Early in the tier when a fight is 5 minutes that hurts specs that rely heavily on the 3m big dick DPS windows because you only get one shot with a large amount of cool down relative to the fight length this is where sustain specs tend to pull ahead on prog fights. When everything's on-farm and the boss dies in 1:30 well there's not a lot of cool down window for you damage fall off to even matter.

Of course, burst can be highly desirable on prog for nuking priority adds or cheesing hp breakpoints to skip mechanics. But again the flipside of this is it's less desirable on fights where the bosses health falls off in chunks or weirdly timed invulnerability phases or any other mechanics that makes the boss an endurance fight.

But yes like I've hinted at this late in the final tier when bosses are dropping in seconds and players hit like gods that's always going to skew towards burst specs. But I mean does it even matter at this point?

[Trend]

Yep, designing some specs just around burst dps is bullshit.

I mean i don't have anything against burst dps in general... but burst shouldn't quadruple or quintuple your normal dps out of cooldown windows

Now lets breakdown dps by windows:

Raden fire mage total DPS 165K
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=12

Total DPS inside cooldown window 550K
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...08&end=6361003

DPS outside of cooldown window 70K
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...13&end=6439440

Absolutely retarded.

I love de facto statements. It is like the voice of God calling out "such and such is good" or "such and such is bad". LOL

I don't personally prefer such playstyle, so I don't play specs that are such. You have a choice: if you don't like it play something else. It's not like these are the only viable classes. Far from it. Of course for trivial content burst classes are going to be better. But who the fuck cares about such irrelevant content. Well you do, obviously, but I cannot even begin to understand.

We were talking in our guild discord about how stupid it is that people are crying about this shit. Top tier players doing something funny in completely irrelevant content at the end of the expansion and it's OMgzOrZ bLIzzARd ToO StooPId tO BAlanCE!!!!

[Tradu]

I love de facto statements. It is like the voice of God calling out "such and such is good" or "such and such is bad". LOL

I don't personally prefer such playstyle, so I don't play specs that are such. You have a choice: if you don't like it play something else. It's not like these are the only viable classes. Far from it. Of course for trivial content burst classes are going to be better. But who the fuck cares about such irrelevant content. Well you do, obviously, but I cannot even begin to understand.

We were talking in our guild discord about how stupid it is that people are crying about this shit. Top tier players doing something funny in completely irrelevant content at the end of the expansion and it's OMgzOrZ bLIzzARd ToO StooPId tO BAlanCE!!!!

Except burst specs are also massively superior for progress. Ever wonder why Destro keeps popping up even when it's not the best sustained DPS spec for locks? Or historically MM? While specs like Shadow have to be grossly overtuned to reach "normal" hunter/mage/lock representation in good raid comps?

[Afrospinach]

Absolutely retarded.

Feel the same way about outlaw and their magic 6 buff event. It is what? 250% more damage? More? When this buff is gone you are completely flat footed. It is almost like the elemental circle in diablo 3 which is something that just ruined the game for me.

[Saltysquidoon]

I don't personally prefer such playstyle, so I don't play specs that are such. You have a choice: if you don't like it play something else. It's not like these are the only viable classes. Far from it. Of course for trivial content burst classes are going to be better. But who the fuck cares about such irrelevant content. Well you do, obviously, but I cannot even begin to understand.

It's swings and roundabouts. Locks blow chunks in M+ largely because so much of their damage is tied to their burst windows which is harder to plan around in a dungeon as opposed to a raid fight.

Except burst specs are also massively superior for progress. Ever wonder why Destro keeps popping up even when it's not the best sustained DPS spec for locks? Or historically MM? While specs like Shadow have to be grossly overtuned to reach "normal" hunter/mage/lock representation in good raid comps?

Apparently destro and fire burst's attractiveness didn't extend to uldir or BoD. Burst specs get stronger the later and expansion gets (because gear) this is also exponentially worse in BFA due to stacking borrowed power with itself, on top of other borrowed power and with more gear.
Even in ny'alotha prog, it's not like limit and method were stacking destro locks (they were mostly affliction for the first kills). But that example also muddies the water, were the mages playing fire because burst is inherently op or because fire is the strongest mage spec in 8.3 (maybe both, probably the latter)?

[exochaft]

Apparently destro and fire burst's attractiveness didn't extend to uldir or BoD. Burst specs get stronger the later and expansion gets (because gear) this is also exponentially worse in BFA due to stacking borrowed power with itself, on top of other borrowed power and with more gear.
Even in ny'alotha prog, it's not like limit and method were stacking destro locks (they were mostly affliction for the first kills). But that example also muddies the water, were the mages playing fire because burst is inherently op or because fire is the strongest mage spec in 8.3 (maybe both, probably the latter)?

It's more analogous to the debate that we more commonly have when it comes to class balance: ST versus cleave/AoE damage capabilities of a spec. While every spec has their strengths and weaknesses, having an extreme advantage in scenarios that feasibly exist in the game are a class balancing failure (as are extreme disadvantages). Even within BfA, we've seen several specs get very hefty nerf hammers because of extreme advantages. The simple version comes down to whether a class/spec can completely trivialize or negate mechanics when any other solution doesn't even come close. Again, we see this more in the immunity department, but this can also apply to burst damage killing things so quickly/efficiently that encounters get trivialized or made much easier.

Some of it is class/spec mechanics and interactions, some of it is borrowed power, some of it is scaling... all if it falls under considerations that should be made during class design balancing (this is completely ignoring how a spec feels to the players as a whole or between abilities/damage spread). Having specs that excel at burst damage isn't a bad thing, but having them excel to insane levels is a problem... especially if it gives you very large advantages that you can't afford not to have. If your group doesn't take advantage of such large gain, you're just shooting yourself in the foot for not bringing them.

Slight aside, this is the main reason I really dislike the 5% physical/magic damage vulnerabilities, especially in a raid setting. There's way too much 'mandatory' in mythic raiding when it comes to what you need to bring without feeling like you're playing the game wrong.

[Bigbazz]

This isn't a new thing though, similar stuff happened in every expansion going back to Cata. In Hellfire Citadel you could take an Arms Warrior to tank with 19 mages for dps and kill Iron Reaver on Mythic in 15 seconds flat with Legendary Ring burst, give or take. Burst dps isn't really a problem so long as raid progression is well balanced and people are having fun, even if eventually you see stupid shit like this when people overgear.

Blizzard doesn't take the game balance that seriously, neither should you.

Feel the same way about outlaw and their magic 6 buff event. It is what? 250% more damage? More? When this buff is gone you are completely flat footed. It is almost like the elemental circle in diablo 3 which is something that just ruined the game for me.

Not followed the discussion but Outlaw Rogues pretty much never get the full buff dice roll, like you could reasonably expect to not get it once during an entire raid, they aren't balanced around having the full dice.

[Trend]

Except burst specs are also massively superior for progress. Ever wonder why Destro keeps popping up even when it's not the best sustained DPS spec for locks? Or historically MM? While specs like Shadow have to be grossly overtuned to reach "normal" hunter/mage/lock representation in good raid comps?

"Massively superior"? Please. Hyberbole much?

If something is ever so slightly better it is going to get stacked at the top end. Especially in this case where optimization of burst specs is going to rely on close coordination of fights to align with burst windows, you are more likely to see burst reliant stacks at the top end than anywhere else ... unless the fight is so short you only have the initial burst (because the coordination does not matter.)

If you were right, there would not have been BM hunters in progression ... yet there were.

And btw, since you asked, destro locks kept popping up in NYA because the vast majority of fights are perfect to play with their strongest traits, traits that would be shit on pure ST.

[kaminaris]

I really dont understand why ppl are complaining. This is the last patch of the xpac. Its not like this was going on for the whole expansion. Infact it just started happening because of corruption stacking something that was just introduced this patch. Also the fact that you can have a higher corruption cap overtime ment that we were going to see some crazy dps combo's come with it that were not going to be possible otherwise.

You know how blizzard likes to nerf things before a new expac comes out so more ppl get boss kills. This corruption stacking is that nerf. Every week you can wear higher and higher levels of corruption and blizz doesnt have to put out 5% hp nerfs or dmg nerfs so ppl can get mythic kills.

Of course it did happen before. Demo locks at BoD were godlike because of specific interaction with demonic consumption plus pet energy gain plus dumb ass imps.
Got nerfed so hard but still most of your damage is just your cooldown - tyrant.

IF it didn't get nerfed by then, it would absolutely overpower everything and anything by now. Tyrant would hit like a goddamn truck and obliterate everything and anything. Tyrant hits for about 250K pet demonfire bolt, without nerf it would be like 500k per hit. And your permanent pet would hit twice as hard.

Fast forward now.
Demo lock outside of CD dps: 48K
During CD: 359K
From some logs on mythic ilgynoth.

Rewind back to BoD (Grong)
Outside of CD: 17K
During CD: 79K

And this is why designing burst classes is a problem because as time goes on the difference and overall output will outshine all "steady dps" classes.
TL;DR on last tier of expansion always pick burst class that didn't get nerfed before.

[Soon-TM]

Arcane in HFC was just stupid.

Yeah, I definitely remember several high end raiders complaining about it at the end of WoD. But for some reasons, a lot of specs behave like that now, it isn't just Fire mages. The funny thing is that many of those specs, including Fire ofc, can burst harder and more consistently than what it is (was?) supposed to be THE burst spec in the game, i.e. Arcane.

Luckily Shadowlands seems to go away from the bs we had in BfA and make skill matter again. Procs and passives should never do more than 5-15% damage. It's just stupid to see a player do 30% less than someone else with same spec and skill, just by chance like now.

I'd love this to be true... But I'll believe it when I see it.

[Doffen]

Yeah, I definitely remember several high end raiders complaining about it at the end of WoD. But for some reasons, a lot of specs behave like that now, it isn't just Fire mages. The funny thing is that many of those specs, including Fire ofc, can burst harder and more consistently than what it is (was?) supposed to be THE burst spec in the game, i.e. Arcane.]

Yeah, I was an Arcane Mage main then. The others in our raid just didn't have a chance. Though late HfC Fire Mage did really well too because of scaling, iirc Fire was even better with the right amount of stats late in the raid.

I'd love this to be true... But I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, we can always hope I guess

And just do add to the topic, the base burst isn't the problem. It's all the extra rental power you get that boost is so immensely. The OP have been parroting whole expansion on how bad rental power was in Legion, BfA is just way worse in every regard. It's funny that he don't want to see this, but it's the truth and he is even providing why in this thread. I don't get why he is the one making this thread since he said it was so good the whole expansion. Fact is, it's been like this since 8.0, and it got even worse in 8.2, and 8.3 is a fucking mess.

This won't happen in Shadowlands if they don't do this rental power charade again where it boosts your damage so much like now in BfA, especially since 8.2 and 8.3. It's why the burst we have now is so strong on more classes/spec than usual, because of all the damage boosting and proccing rental powers. Rental power is good, but like we hope for, don't let it be more than 10-15% of the overall throughput, at least if the rental power doesn't come from your base kit like soulbinds can be with extra crit chance and so on that boost the spec, not power from other sources.

I believe if the solution is that, I would be totally fine with it. The covenant ability shouldn't be more than 5% of your throughput either. But yeah, we can always hope.