Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[TexasRules]

Sure, but you can see how one side is clearly more believable than the other, no? I won't claim to know with 100% certainty what happened to this man but I will use the evidence I have in front of me to come to a logical conclusion...

And...what? Say I'm wrong, and he had a heart condition that decided to kick in during that very moment that he was being restrained. It's still on the police for not responding to his pleas for help. Their actions lead to his death.

Their actions did lead to his death. 100%. They also ALL need to be held responsible. These facts are not up for debate by anyone, and if you are debating against them, you're a piece of shit. But for some of the people on this thread, you need to search and find out what happens when there is no police presence...like when the police of Baltimore stayed away.

[Endus]

So I guess the court will have to decide which autopsy is "correct"?
Or is there an autopsy authority deciding on which pathomorphologist was more right?

Here's why we don't lend that much credence to that official autopsy, in a nutshell;
They state he had underlying health conditions, but not how they directly led to his death.
They admit that being restrained by the police contributed to his death, despite (apparently falsely) stating there was no evidence to support that.
They say "any potential intoxicants in his system", meaning they didn't actually have any evidence of such intoxicants and are literally making shit up as a wild hypothesis.
They say these things "likely contributed to his death", meaning they don't actually know what caused his death.

So, despite the official autopsy claiming that there was no evidence to support strangulation, they admit strangulation could have contributed, and the only other factors would be the victim's underlying health (but they do not determine those were the cause), and a guess that if he had drugs or alcohol in his system, that could have been a factor, but they're making that up because they apparently didn't bother to test for that.

And that's just going strictly off the actual words of the ME in charge of the official autopsy, exactly as they phrased them.

[Paranoid Android]

BREAKING: Hennepin County Medical Examiner releases updated report declaring George Floyd death a homicide

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner's report released Monday declares the death of George Floyd as a homicide, writing that he died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression."

So its a homicide.


Sorry running out the door, no time to add further comment.

[Grapemask]

"You didn't read my post in which I made the unsubstantiated claim that they probably paid the coroner to say whatever they wanted. You know, the one where I blamed the family of the victim..."

To be fair, there isn't much point in reading a rrayy post because his argument may completely flip from one post to the next in order to defend his side of the aisle. I don't know why anyone is continuing to play into it.

[rrayy]

Wrong.

We also have plenty of video of the victim clearly stating that he's having trouble breathing. Which strongly suggests strangulation. When the victim themselves is essentially stating they're being strangled, we don't leap to the conclusion that it somehow can't be that.

It's like if the video shows the officer shooting the victim, and the victim says "you shot me!", and we can see the bullet holes in his shirt and the bleeding, and the ME's report says his death was due to "underlying causes". Yeah, we'd dispute that too, because it flies in the face of the evidence we have.

Wrong. You can have trouble breathing with out your air way being physically resctricted or damaged in any way. Heart issues do exactly that. If you go into cardiac arrest, you will have trouble breathing despite the fact your air way is completely unobstructed. No obstruction, no strangulation.

This is you describing your personal biases and issues, and projecting them on everyone involved.

We should be evaluating the reports based on how they line up with the known evidence, not by making up fictions to justify ignoring evidence we dislike. Which is your entire argument.

ALL the known evidnce, not the evidence you cherry pick to line up with the ruling you want. It was known that he panicked when they tried to put him in the squad car because he is clausterphobic. It is also known that he has heart disease and hypertension. All of that put together can cause one to have trouble breathing even with a completely unubstructed air way.

And if you're exacerbating those conditions by applying pressure to his chest and neck, that is strangulation.
Having such issues is not an argument against strangulation, at all.

Wrong. You cannot have strangulation if you do not physically obstruct the air way. No sign of phyiscal damge = no ruling of strangulation.

Both reports are legit. But you only count stangulation because you are biased and that is the ruling you want.

[stevenho]

Here's why we don't lend that much credence to that official autopsy, in a nutshell;
They state he had underlying health conditions, but not how they directly led to his death.
They admit that being restrained by the police contributed to his death, despite (apparently falsely) stating there was no evidence to support that.
They say "any potential intoxicants in his system", meaning they didn't actually have any evidence of such intoxicants and are literally making shit up as a wild hypothesis.
They say these things "likely contributed to his death", meaning they don't actually know what caused his death.

So, despite the official autopsy claiming that there was no evidence to support strangulation, they admit strangulation could have contributed, and the only other factors would be the victim's underlying health (but they do not determine those were the cause), and a guess that if he had drugs or alcohol in his system, that could have been a factor, but they're making that up because they apparently didn't bother to test for that.

And that's just going strictly off the actual words of the ME in charge of the official autopsy, exactly as they phrased them.

Yeah that's how I read it aka "it was not a death by strangulation, but actual causes could not be determined" sprinkled with some unnecessary hypothesis.
What I wonder is how it will be treated in court, since the family had their own autopsy performed with predictably different results.
I know how this works in EU courts, but no clue about USA.

[Egomaniac]

Holy ...

Are those cops even human anymore? I am not so sure.
That arrest is text book China.

I am baffled that this is happening in the US.
Every single cop that is standing there should be fired over this.

Yup.

And I'm still waiting for those usual "Free Speech" people to come and be outraged over this.

But I guess to them "free speech" only applies when Twitter bans someone for Hate Speech.

[rrayy]

"You didn't read my post in which I made the unsubstantiated claim that they probably paid the coroner to say whatever they wanted. You know, the one where I blamed the family of the victim..."

I am not doing any blame. I am just pointing out the credibility issue here and why that report should not be taken withj anything more than the grain of salt you take with the ME report. Answer this question:

Yes or No, is it possible that the family paid the investigator to rule asphyxiation because that is the ruling they want?

[Endus]

Wrong. You can have trouble breathing with out your air way being physically resctricted or damaged in any way. Heart issues do exactly that. If you go into cardiac arrest, you will have trouble breathing despite the fact your air way is completely unobstructed. No obstruction, no strangulation.

If you're having that trouble because someone's kneeling on your chest and neck, they're strangling you.

Floyd wasn't walking down the street free and clear when he had trouble breathing. We're not going to ignore the clearly-visible context from multiple video angles just because you want to play silly buggers with the facts.

ALL the known evidnce, not the evidence you cherry pick to line up with the ruling you want. It was known that he panicked when they tried to put him in the squad car because he is clausterphobic. It is also known that he has heart disease and hypertension. All of that put together can cause one to have trouble breathing even with a completely unubstructed air way.

I'm not the one cherry-picking anything, here. You are, again, projecting.

Wrong. You cannot have strangulation if you do not physically obstruct the air way. No sign of phyiscal damge = no ruling of strangulation.

Kneeling on someone's chest and neck does exactly that. Which, again, we have video evidence corroborating.

The ME's autopsy goes solely off the physical body's damage. It doesn't take that context into account. We don't have to artificially limit our consideration like that.

Both reports are legit. But you only count stangulation because you are biased and that is the ruling you want.

No, I only count strangulation because he was clearly being strangled in the video, and I'm not going to exclude that video evidence. You are the one seeking to cherry-pick and exclude it. Because you support and defend police brutality.

[Zaktar]

To be fair, there isn't much point in reading a rrayy post because his argument may completely flip from one post to the next in order to defend his side of the aisle. I don't know why anyone is continuing to play into it.

I basically skip their posts and the ones quoting them. Their clear goal is to tangle people up in meaningless arguments.

[Endus]

I am not doing any blame.

You literally and directly accused the independent ME of committing fraud, based on absolutely no evidence.

I am just pointing out the credibility issue here and why that report should not be taken withj anything more than the grain of salt you take with the ME report. Answer this question:

Yes or No, is it possible that the family paid the investigator to rule asphyxiation because that is the ruling they want?

See? You're doing it again, right here.

It's possible that aliens used their mind-control rays to force the investigator to hide that it was their devices that killed Floyd. But we shouldn't give wild fantastical hypotheses any credence whatsoever unless actual evidence is produced. And you have none. You're just making up slanderous horse shit.

[Belize]

BREAKING: Hennepin County Medical Examiner releases updated report declaring George Floyd death a homicide




So its a homicide.


Sorry running out the door, no time to add further comment.

@rrayy please add "the state examiner changing their tune once an independent investigation by a renown doctor comes out" to my list of reasons why the state examiner is untrustworthy.

I await your replies

[Benggaul]

I am not doing any blame. I am just pointing out the credibility issue here and why that report should not be taken withj anything more than the grain of salt you take with the ME report. Answer this question:

Yes or No, is it possible that the family paid the investigator to rule asphyxiation because that is the ruling they want?

"Having heavily implied in my post that the family paid the coroner to get the result they wanted on the report, I will now backpedal into the realms of "whatifs" to cover my tracks."

G'night, folks.

[Machismo]

I am not doing any blame. I am just pointing out the credibility issue here and why that report should not be taken withj anything more than the grain of salt you take with the ME report. Answer this question:

Yes or No, is it possible that the family paid the investigator to rule asphyxiation because that is the ruling they want?

Evidence, please.

[rrayy]

Yeah that's how I read it aka "it was not a death by strangulation, but actual causes could not be determined" sprinkled with some unnecessary hypothesis.
What I wonder is how it will be treated in court, since the family had their own autopsy performed with predictably different results.
I know how this works in EU courts, but no clue about USA.

First, what you read was the preliminary findings that were put in the charge record. That means the ME had done his cursory examination of the body hence the general descriptions. He will give his full report when he does his full examination of the body which will provide more specific details. They wil have to wait for the Toxicology report to determine if he was under any influence

As for how it is treated in court, both reports will be brought into evidence. The ME will be called to the stand by the prosecutor to go through his entire report. That will include entering into evidence all the photos of the body the ME took and the ME will describe what is in each photo and then will explain how he came to his conclusions. The defense will cross examine the ME. The defense is going to use that report to claim that since underlying causes was how he dide that it was an accident, not murder. Same process for the Family Investigator. Only the defense will try to discredit that to make the ME's report more credible. The jury will then have to decide which one is closer to the actual facts. Now, since the charges are 3rd degree murder and Manslaughter, they only thing that matters is that the police officer's actions contributed to his death. Both reports confirm it, so it won't really matter too much in the grand scheme of the trial.

- - - Updated - - -

"Having heavily implied in my post that the family paid the coroner to get the result they wanted on the report, I will now backpedal into the realms of "whatifs" to cover my tracks."

G'night, folks.

Answer the question. Yes or No, is it possible that the family paid the investigator to rule asphyxiation because that is the ruling they want?

[Crissi]

https://twitter.com/TheStolenBeer/st...93331449909248

reason number 2 that police unions need to be demolished. Even their attorneys are advocating shooting protesters

Although now she's stating "I havent been representing them for some time and I did not change my twitter bio, so Im sorry". buncha bullshit when she was working there in Nov 2019

Pure rotteness form the top down.

[Bdatik]

https://twitter.com/TheStolenBeer/st...93331449909248

reason number 2 that police unions need to be demolished. Even their attorneys are advocating shooting protesters

Although now she's stating "I havent been representing them for some time and I did not change my twitter bio, so Im sorry". buncha bullshit when she was working there in Nov 2019

Pure rotteness form the top down.

LAPD issued a statement that she is not employed by LAPPL.

https://twitter.com/LAPDHQ/status/1267285158761119744

Seems she used to be, however.

Edit: Missed your explanation of her post as well, my bad.

[Easo]

@rrayy, do you realistically think that the death was not due to strangulation, after looking at the available evidence, especially and most importantly the very, very infamous video of his death?
I dont want your guessing and theorizing and saying what basically amounts to conspiracy theories about paid coroners. I want to know what you think.

In the meantime, there have been at least one hundred attacks on press by police forces in the last 3 days.
One HUNDRED.
Crews from CNN, BBC, Reuters, Vice-News, etc. Pepper spray, rubber bullets, beatings, etc., even when displaying press credentials to their faces.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52880970

And there you can see what happens with 6 week "training".

This one is the best. Guy told to lay on ground. Does that, holds in his hand clearly visible credentials. Cops look at them and then spray the guy in the face. While he is on his belly.
https://twitter.com/rsdaza/status/1267200011659554824

[rrayy]

https://twitter.com/TheStolenBeer/st...93331449909248

reason number 2 that police unions need to be demolished. Even their attorneys are advocating shooting protesters

Although now she's stating "I havent been representing them for some time and I did not change my twitter bio, so Im sorry". buncha bullshit when she was working there in Nov 2019

Pure rotteness form the top down.

It was confirmed by the union. We await for your apology for falsely accusing the police union.

[Belize]

https://twitter.com/TheStolenBeer/st...93331449909248

reason number 2 that police unions need to be demolished. Even their attorneys are advocating shooting protesters

Although now she's stating "I havent been representing them for some time and I did not change my twitter bio, so Im sorry". buncha bullshit when she was working there in Nov 2019

Pure rotteness form the top down.

Not being employed there doesn't excuse her from wanting people to be fucking shot.

What is wrong with these idiots.