Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Hyeonh]

You're not the bad guy, your loot, your decision. They aren't entitled to anything from your inventory and you are not obligated to give them anything. Theres also a high chance that the pug knew each other as well or just wanted to dogpile. So eff em.

[Liarparadox]

Salute o7

So to start things off im still fairly convinced that I am in fact not the bad guy
https://imgur.com/d0VCUU4

It's personal loot. You don't owe anyone any gear that drops for you, for any reason, whether that's tmog, currency to buy new azerite gear, the enchant shard, just to mess around with, or vendor gold; [/I]and you don't even owe them an explanation. They aren't entitled to your gear; it's yours, not theirs. I mean, i personally wouldn't love it if someone kept an item for what I perceived to be a trivial reason; but I also recognize and appreciate that it dropped for someone else, not me. So I wouldn't make a fuss about it. It's not owed to me; and your personal loot isn't owed to anyone.

And exactly what AwkwardSquirtle said I was going to say: this is the very reason why personal loot exists. So no one, not even the raid leader can bully and snipe at gear.

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this is why you don't loot gear until you get to the mailbox.

I do this sometimes too! It's a great method to just avoid issues.

[Saltysquidoon]

Having a RL determine who joins a raid, with kick and some loot power has been the staple of organized groups in MMORPGs for a LOOOOOG time. The reason for that is because it not only works, but because that's the nature of the game mode: Custom groups. Having the ability to fully control a group for you and your friends is a necessary component of gaming in a lot of ways.

Granted, this is complicated by the nature of loot and raid lockouts. But I'm not sure there's a good way to correct the situation that hasn't already been done. As much as I dislike forcing personal loot on the entire game, in this case it seems to have functioned as the insurance against fuckery that otherwise would have happened. The OP got the loot he deserved for contributing to a random group of players. The Raid Leader got to enforce the desired composition of players that he and his friends wanted. That seems equitable.

I don't condone the attempt to coerce the loot out of the OP by threatening a raid kick. But that was an empty threat. And there's not an in-game system built anywhere that can stop people from being A-holes. So in this case I think that, despite all the arguing back and forth, things worked out about as well as they could have.

I'm aware of the mechanics of raid groups and how they work. Raid groups are a tool my issue is not with the tool but with the failable meatsacks using the tool.

I'm not suggesting there is a remedy for the OP or that there should be some in-game mechanic that polices how people play or how they conduct their groups. Like I said previously it's been a long time since I've pug'd a raid so perhaps the conduct during that period had significantly declined but I can't say in my experience when I did pug random arbitrary kicking for no justifiable reason was common or persuasive.

My interest in this topic is really philosophical: What interests me is how people reconcile the fact a RL has the power to kick someone arbitrarily with if they have the right too. And how they they reached that conclusion (especially in light of the RL's unjustifiable conduct in this case).

[Hctaz]

Why wouldn't you say he's in the right though, it's called personal loot for a reason.

Because in terms of social shit it's a "dick move" but like... There are some "dick moves" you just gotta get over. The way the loot system works promotes stuff like this happening. Blizzard would rather people keep their loot and not trade it versus Master Looters giving it out to who it is a bigger upgrade for. I personally rather the old way of Master Looter giving it to people it is an upgrade for, but I also wouldn't kick somebody who has a reason for holding onto the piece of gear.

Yes, it was an actual legit upgrade for somebody else, but unless the OP was like, "Fuck you, I'm keeping it to spite you," it wouldn't warrant a kick in my eyes. He wanted it for residuum. Fair reason. Blizzard's loot system said he won the loot fair and square. There's no alternative option for group loot systems like we had in the day, so the rules of the loot system applies unless stated otherwise by the group lead in chat before the raid begins. Nobody said he had to give the items to the other person at the start of the raid or else he probably wouldn't have stayed since he was there to scrap the item anyway.

[SirCowdog]

Im pointing out it wasnt an empty threat. They followed through with the threat and took action. Thats all im saying.

I get that. I was just elaborating that even if they did kick him, it really didn't mean anything. That's why I said it was empty. The OP got his loot and PUG raids are dime-a-dozen.

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I'm aware of the mechanics of raid groups and how they work. Raid groups are a tool my issue is not with the tool but with the failable meatsacks using the tool.

I'm not suggesting there is a remedy for the OP or that there should be some in-game mechanic that polices how people play or how they conduct their groups. Like I said previously it's been a long time since I've pug'd a raid so perhaps the conduct during that period had significantly declined but I can't say in my experience when I did pug random arbitrary kicking for no justifiable reason was common or persuasive.

My interest in this topic is really philosophical: What interests me is how people reconcile the fact a RL has the power to kick someone arbitrarily with if they have the right too. And how they they reached that conclusion (especially in light of the RL's unjustifiable conduct in this case).

I think it's because the tool of forming your own custom groups is both the problem and the solution. It allows the creating of groups of ANY composition: Both asshats and good constructive fun groups. In the case of encountering a group full of toxic a-holes, then just leave and form your own group to work exactly how you want it to be, leveraging the dictatorial of being the Raid leader to kick or invite only people who meet your standards.

The other part of this discussion is that people who join PUGs need to recognize that going into it they don't have any power outside of personal loot. They are choosing to put themselves at the whims of the RL in the context of staying in that particular custom group. It's not a democracy. There are no social rights. You are not entitled to staying in the run.

I think that's why people say the RL has the right to kick people arbitrarily. Because he/she does. You never had any moral or social claim to staying in the first place. There's no real reconciliation of this besides acknowledging that it's just a fact of how the Raid Leader position works.

Ultimately if you have expectations about what a PUG should be, then the only real way to enforce that expectation is to be a raid leader and form the group yourself.

[arkanon]

I get that. I was just elaborating that even if they did kick him, it really didn't mean anything. That's why I said it was empty. The OP got his loot and PUG raids are dime-a-dozen.

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Oh totally agree - its not like he was kicked from the pug, and his leg fell off. Barely an inconvenience.

[Darththeo]

Guilty of what? Your reply to @Saltysquidoon's remark about how the situation from the OP would be a crime if it happened IRL was literally stating that "Swearing at someone because you didn't like their reason for saying no isn't a crime". This is an outright quote (with the rest of that entire post being a counter-accusation of "shitposting" and throwing their claim - that I described above - back at them, both of which were beside the main point of your post, i.e. what I addressed). Which not only deliberately omits half of what happened (you know, the entire drama about loot that went way past just swearing), it omits the half that they were quite obviously referring to. Your remark that I haven't read the post I replied to in what you quoted is utterly without merit. This is getting rather desperate on your part.

And given your "try to everything" inquiry, let's go through everything and review my previous post as well (at least everything where I "called you out" on something) then:

This is a post where @Raelbo said that the OP was entitled to a share of loot. And here's you flat out admitting you originally misread that.


Same post in regards to what they said (i.e. that the behavior of the RL is never OK). And your reply where you asked them why the RL should have continued to raid with the OP even though it has nothing to do with @Raelbo passing moral judgement on the RL's actions.



Here's you talking about the OP not being entitled to gear. Even though the claim you were replying to was about loot (which, since it matters in the context, mirrors their original post on the matter).

So, I tried to everything as you insisted. Everything I "called you out" on is (still) correct. Your attempt at saving face with your dismissive answer that addressed nothing because actual arguments are passe and instead hoping I simply won't bother backfired. I'm not sure if you desired this result or not, but either way I hope you're happy with my compliance and the egg on your face.

No, you are really not. Also, that individual is factual wrong about someone swearing at you demanding your stuff being a crime ... if it was every Karen would be in jail as would every choosing begger ... swearing and demanding someone give you something is not a crime. Attempting to take it, threatening to physically harm the person/destroy property of the person, etc ... is the crime. Demanding it and swearing ain't a crime.

The topic is about gear, changing it to Loot in general which includes gold, AP, etc ... is nonsensical. The topic is about gear and in the game people will do a dungeon or raid where no gear drops from them and go "Damn I got no loot." If you went "Well, you got AP and gold, so you got loot." you sound like a fool. We all know the topic at hand is about gear.

Secondly,he is still wrong. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO A SHARE OF THE LOOT, period. There is no entitlement to a share, you are entitled to a chance at loot, not guaranteed a share of it. So no, his first point still makes no sense.

Thirdly, his point was it was wrong to punish, which A) he wasn't punished, the RL didn't want to play with him anymore if he didn't trade the gear, and B) you cannot force someone to play with you. So his third point is wrong. So my question follows, why should RL have continued to allow OP to play with them follows, because that is the conclusion as the thing that occurred was being kicked so that's the supposed punishment.

So no, you continue to be wrong.

[Saltysquidoon]

Ultimately if you have expectations about what a PUG should be, then the only real way to enforce that expectation is to be a raid leader and form the group yourself.

I think this is the problem I'm not communicating effectively.
I don't give a shit how pugs work I don't pug (raids) it literally doesn't affect me. I know there's no solution and people will always misuse authority I don't care.

This is what I care about

I think that's why people say the RL has the right to kick people arbitrarily. Because he/she does. You never had any moral or social claim to staying in the first place. There's no real reconciliation of this besides acknowledging that it's just a fact of how the Raid Leader position works.

Isn't it funny how some people treat the social contract?
What's the old quote, "I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law".
The argument people have "no moral or social claim" is only true insofar as there is no one to police it. On a purely abstract level, there are infact 'unwritten' rules of social conduct that most people abide by most of the time (even in wow).
I'm not going to go full old man 'muh server community' but this would have been an example of where that would have mattered. This RL for acting this way would likely face the social censure of not being trusted as a pug leader and in that way his actions would have been policed and he would be less inclined to act like a dick.

It's just interesting how people work.

[xenogear3]

"Kicked by RL" WAS a huge problem before, because you lost the whole raid's lockout.
Now, you can simply go find another group.

All MMORPGs (SWTOR and FF14) only lock you on the bosses you down, not the whole raid.

WoW has a lot obsoleted systems, and many WoW players still live 10 years ago.

[gurutikka]

I wouldn't say you were the bad guy but you were definitely without a shadow of a doubt selfish. When you're in a guild, you have to have the mentality that you're there to help each other out. So by not trading that item away to a person who really needed it was a dick move especially because you already were decked out. I would have given it to the hunter if it were me because I am not a selfish person. Whether I agree with you being kicked out, I can't really say, but all I am going to say is you were being a dick.

Now if you were pugging, then I would totally take your side. But since you were in a guild doing a guild run, it's a different story.

[arkanon]

I wouldn't say you were the bad guy but you were definitely without a shadow of a doubt selfish. When you're in a guild, you have to have the mentality that you're there to help each other out. So by not trading that item away to a person who really needed it was a dick move especially because you already were decked out. I would have given it to the hunter if it were me because I am not a selfish person. Whether I agree with you being kicked out, I can't really say, but all I am going to say is you were being a dick.

Now if you were pugging, then I would totally take your side. But since you were in a guild doing a guild run, it's a different story.

It was a pug.

[Volatilis]

I wouldn't say you were the bad guy but you were definitely without a shadow of a doubt selfish. When you're in a guild, you have to have the mentality that you're there to help each other out. So by not trading that item away to a person who really needed it was a dick move especially because you already were decked out. I would have given it to the hunter if it were me because I am not a selfish person. Whether I agree with you being kicked out, I can't really say, but all I am going to say is you were being a dick.

Now if you were pugging, then I would totally take your side. But since you were in a guild doing a guild run, it's a different story.

did you even read the op post?

[Bryntrollian]

That's why I never loot in pugs, I just wait for the drops to hit my mailbox later on.

[gurutikka]

It was a pug.

Then I fully support the OP. It's absolutely his choice what he wants to do with the item even if he vendors it to some NPC, there are no rules in PUGs, every man for himself, every loot for himself. So if they kicked you, they were the dicks. In fact, I wouldn't even call OP selfish because in a PUG, it's everyone for themselves with random strangers and how do you know that dude that's asking for that item is on his 8th alt? What if he already has all his other characters decked out in gear better yet, what if some poor dude asked him for an item and he declined? They are buncha strangers. It's OP's choice what he wants to do with that item.

In a guild environment though it's difference so I would have given him that item if he was your guildy especially when doing guild raids I always have this in my head that i'm there to help others out whenever I can, if there is nothing I need that's priority it instantly goes to my guildies.

[qwerty123456]

Regarding loot rules for me it is acutally the opposite, usually there are no rules in my pugs and until now i ever even felt like asking in the first place.

Regarding other sources of residium, i can guarantee you no i could not (pvp conequest is uo to current reward and i allready had a mythic id with my guild, also hc darkshore was not up either), at least no 460 piece of azerite only a bunch of 445 in like mythic 0 dungeons (and the same scenario could arise in that case)

Regarding me not linking the other hunters DPS, i can provide a screenshot of my interface, with my settings my dmg meter is set to only display 9 rows, only way to include me and the hutner this post is about was to exclude the top dps (i still listed how much he did though)

@qwerty123456 i reread your post and have to apologize, when i replied to you i still had another persons reply in my mind and mixed them up, sorry for doing that.

No worries all your posts I have seen have been civil and this has been an interesting thread. Although now I realize I didn't follow my own advice and leave when some other person in this thread became hostile. It's much easier to see when your not the person in the situation lol.

[arkanon]

Then I fully support the OP. It's absolutely his choice what he wants to do with the item even if he vendors it to some NPC, there are no rules in PUGs, every man for himself, every loot for himself. So if they kicked you, they were the dicks. In fact, I wouldn't even call OP selfish because in a PUG, it's everyone for themselves with random strangers and how do you know that dude that's asking for that item is on his 8th alt? What if he already has all his other characters decked out in gear better yet, what if some poor dude asked him for an item and he declined? They are buncha strangers. It's OP's choice what he wants to do with that item.

In a guild environment though it's difference so I would have given him that item if he was your guildy especially when doing guild raids I always have this in my head that i'm there to help others out whenever I can, if there is nothing I need that's priority it instantly goes to my guildies.

I frequently run semi pug / semi guild runs, and my guildies know the expectation - if you dont need the item, you link it for rolls - pugs and guildies are equal. Never had an issue, never have any loot drama. But, as i said, i am usually RUNNING the group, rather than simply being a random member in a random pug.

[SirCowdog]

No worries all your posts I have seen have been civil and this has been an interesting thread. Although now I realize I didn't follow my own advice and leave when some other person in this thread became hostile. It's much easier to see when your not the person in the situation lol.

I saw this pop up as you quoting me, but it appears you edited it before I could read it.

I hope the "other person" being hostile wasn't referencing me. Although that would be funny if it was, because if you think my responses were hostile then you haven't been on the internet very long.

But I figured I'd give you the opportunity to clarify before jumping to conclusions

[LanToaster]

To summarize what i learned from this thread, apparently there are people that think that i should pretty much no longer be allowed to join hc pug raids, as i do outgear them and there is no valid upgrade for me in it. Or if i actually do join im supposed to surrender every piece of loot that accidently drops for me.

How DARE YOU go into a Raid and expect to get something out of it! This is Unbelievable Selfish and this cannot be Tolerated. You HAVE to go out in every second of your Free time to farm gear for ungrateful random Scrubs.

Jokes aside, yea, that is sadly the state of the game right now.

And no he did not act "correctly" or he would have not gotten the boot. Theres a thousand of things he could have done better. He could have left as soon as he got his scrap piece, or he could have said he would give it at the end of the raid and either give it to the dude if he got another azerite or traded it for an azerite the hunter or someone else got or just left at the end of the raid and not given it to the hunter, etc... Knowingly "causing trouble" in a raid you have no control of isn't the "correct choice".

The first sentence is the default thought reading the Title. And no, the person who wants the Item from the owner should come up with a Trade offer.

Its selfish and entitled to think the loot someone else got is yours, or you have any rights over it.

[Raelbo]

Because in terms of social shit it's a "dick move"

This isn't really an answer to the question though. You need to provide some sort of warrant to explain what makes it a dick move. Because, frankly, I see no obvious reason that makes it a dick move, so unless you can back up your assertion with actual reasoning, there is zero reason to accept it.

The way the loot system works promotes stuff like this happening. Blizzard would rather people keep their loot and not trade it versus Master Looters giving it out to who it is a bigger upgrade for.

Well, the outcome here was significantly better than what would have happened under master looter, because at least the OP got to keep the reward he had earned. Blizzard, rightly so, would rather people are given the rewards they have earned directly and have the final say on what happens to it than give all the control to one individual.

I personally rather the old way of Master Looter giving it to people it is an upgrade for

In which case the OP would have had zero reason to join the pug and the item wouldn't have dropped. The hunter still would not have been gifted an item he didn't earn. Furthermore, it's pretty clear that the OP was helping to carry this particular group, so it's even likely that the group would have failed.

So in this case PL actually made things better in every regard.

Yes, it was an actual legit upgrade for somebody else, but unless the OP was like, "Fuck you, I'm keeping it to spite you," it wouldn't warrant a kick in my eyes. He wanted it for residuum. Fair reason.

Yeah, so it puzzles me that you would classify it as a "dick move".

There's no alternative option for group loot systems like we had in the day, so the rules of the loot system applies unless stated otherwise by the group lead in chat before the raid begins. Nobody said he had to give the items to the other person at the start of the raid or else he probably wouldn't have stayed since he was there to scrap the item anyway.

Exactly.

Which is why I maintain my view that the actual selfish party in this story is the hunter and his RL buddy. Because at no point did they ever consider the needs of OP because they were so focused on their own desire for more gear. To them, he was nothing more than an instrument to give them more loot, for absolutely nothing in return.

I mean they were presumably more than happy to take on a 475 geared dps who is not only going to help to carry the group, but is also going to be unlikely to need the gear from the place (and thus provide even more potential gear upgrades for mr hunter). But when it came time for the OP to claim his earned reward - that which was his sole motivation for joining the group - they then demanded that he hand it over. And when he said no, not only did the rest of the gang try to bully him into acceding, but they used their power to try and punish him by kicking him from the group.

Now that is an actual example of a "dick move"

[xenogear3]

How DARE YOU go into a Raid and expect to get something out of it! This is Unbelievable Selfish and this cannot be Tolerated. You HAVE to go out in every second of your Free time to farm gear for ungrateful random Scrubs.

That is most raid leaders feel like.
You must completely out gear to join, so his guild members can get all gear.

If Blizzard creates an auto group feature, they will jump up and down at the official forum.
Look for all kinds of excuses, such as LFR trinket is too good !
It is sad Blizzard listens to them.

To be fair, they even find ways to sabotage the FF14 auto group feature.
They don't mind to waste hundreds of hours their own time.