So... thats why burst dps is bad for the game 29 fire mages HC

[Schattenlied]

Loving fire, but yeah... the reliance on combustion makes the time out of combustion feel lack luster. Narrowing the difference could make it feel better, dunno tbh.

Ret paladins have had this problem with Avenging Wrath for over a decade... I'd say "welcome to hell, it will never change", but Blizzard actually likes mages, so there is hope there at least.

[Alvito]

Loving fire, but yeah... the reliance on combustion makes the time out of combustion feel lack luster. Narrowing the difference could make it feel better, dunno tbh.

They tried that at the start of BfA and it ended up killing off the spec for much beyond G'huun and that was only because it was really used for the long execute phase. Combustion is a huge CD now due to x3 blaster master, the on use bracers, double on use trinkets and mastery stacking multipliers, with those going away combustion will go back to being lack luster and the spec will hit like a wet noodle again.

[Tarba]

I don't see the problem.
We have seen many times groups of unique classes dealing with raids they outgear. And now it's the end of expansion lolilol time so who cares?
Mages have 3 dps specs. One is based on a burst window. Who cares?
No group can progress in raid with only fire mages. So, still who cares?

[kaminaris]

I don't see the problem.
We have seen many times groups of unique classes dealing with raids they outgear. And now it's the end of expansion lolilol time so who cares?
Mages have 3 dps specs. One is based on a burst window. Who cares?
No group can progress in raid with only fire mages. So, still who cares?

If you don't see a problem, try reading some of the responses first to broaden horizons.
It is a problem not only when you outgear a content and not only at the end of expansion.

[Tarba]

If you don't see a problem, try reading some of the responses first to broaden horizons.
It is a problem not only when you outgear a content and not only at the end of expansion.

Okay, find me a 25 fire mages progressing raid.

[Amaterasu65]

So this is a qq thread on fire. This is the end of expansion and that was done in heroic by mages with many masterfuls. The spec isn't that good to begin with because it relies too much on specific items, essences and azerite traits to perform. Coeruptions are just there to amplify it. This raid also happened to favor fire mages because of the cleave near main boss. Had it been the long range cleave you'd see more locks and SPs shining.

Imo arcane and frost are more wholesome cause they can deal decent dmg and not feel trash to play without relying on so many external sources.

[kaminaris]

So this is a qq thread on fire. This is the end of expansion and that was done in heroic by mages with many masterfuls. The spec isn't that good to begin with because it relies too much on specific items, essences and azerite traits to perform. Coeruptions are just there to amplify it. This raid also happened to favor fire mages because of the cleave near main boss. Had it been the long range cleave you'd see more locks and SPs shining.

Imo arcane and frost are more wholesome cause they can deal decent dmg and not feel trash to play without relying on so many external sources.

No, read again. Missed out point entirely.

[Tradu]

"Massively superior"? Please. Hyberbole much?

If something is ever so slightly better it is going to get stacked at the top end. Especially in this case where optimization of burst specs is going to rely on close coordination of fights to align with burst windows, you are more likely to see burst reliant stacks at the top end than anywhere else ... unless the fight is so short you only have the initial burst (because the coordination does not matter.)

If you were right, there would not have been BM hunters in progression ... yet there were.

And btw, since you asked, destro locks kept popping up in NYA because the vast majority of fights are perfect to play with their strongest traits, traits that would be shit on pure ST.

Are you genuinely trying to claim BM doesn't have strong burst currently? And frequent? It's basically doing what MM used to do in addition to having infinite mobility.
And yes, burst specs are inherently superior when the end DPS is the same, which is what Blizzard tries to achieve. There have to be downsides to having burst, and there aren't any. "Doing less DPS outside of CDs" is not a downside when the overall damage done ends up being the same(or favoring burst specs)

[Saltysquidoon]

No, read again. Missed out point entirely.

But you're conflating the issues of: post-progression overbearing silliness; three levels of borrowed power exponent scaling; and; final patch burst scaling. Then just coming to the concluding this is just an inherit issue with burst dps.

And yes, burst specs are inherently superior when the end DPS is the same, which is what Blizzard tries to achieve. There have to be downsides to having burst, and there aren't any. "Doing less DPS outside of CDs" is not a downside when the overall damage done ends up being the same(or favoring burst specs)

Except that entirely depends on fight length? A spec tied to a 3m CD is going to look worse when the fight goes 5 minutes then when the fight goes for 1.5 minutes.
Which is why even in ny'alotha even with three levels of borrowed power stacking, even with end of expo burst scaling top end guilds were still taking aff locks to their first kills.

[Tradu]

But you're conflating the issues of: post-progression overbearing silliness; three levels of borrowed power exponent scaling; and; final patch burst scaling. Then just coming to the concluding this is just an inherit issue with burst dps.


Except that entirely depends on fight length? A spec tied to a 3m CD is going to look worse when the fight goes 5 minutes then when the fight goes for 1.5 minutes.
Which is why even in ny'alotha even with three levels of borrowed power stacking, even with end of expo burst scaling top end guilds were still taking aff locks to their first kills.

That's how it should be, yeah. In practice it isn't.
And regarding Affliction I have 2 questions. Who was bringing Affliction over Destro? And you do realize that BfA Affliction is not in any way a sustained DPS spec, right?

[Saltysquidoon]

That's how it should be, yeah. In practice it isn't.
And regarding Affliction I have 2 questions. Who was bringing Affliction over Destro? And you do realize that BfA Affliction is not in any way a sustained DPS spec, right?

Method and Limit I just flicked through their first kills on wowprogress. Also, you're going to have to define "burst spec" because if it just 'does a lot of damage' during cd windows then every spec is going to be a burst spec. I mean the difference between affs peak of like 300k and destro's of like 800k is huge.

[kaminaris]

But you're conflating the issues of: post-progression overbearing silliness; three levels of borrowed power exponent scaling; and; final patch burst scaling. Then just coming to the concluding this is just an inherit issue with burst dps.


Except that entirely depends on fight length? A spec tied to a 3m CD is going to look worse when the fight goes 5 minutes then when the fight goes for 1.5 minutes.
Which is why even in ny'alotha even with three levels of borrowed power stacking, even with end of expo burst scaling top end guilds were still taking aff locks to their first kills.

Let me put in in simpler words as you have no idea what are you talking about.

It's not the borrowed power, it's class design problem, namely ignite, rune of power and it's scaling.
It's the spec that scales exponentially while other classes scales more linearly.

Fight length is dependent on how many burst specs you have no the other way around.
If you want to shorten fight by 30 seconds you replace your steady-dps specs with 2 fire mages.

[Tradu]

Method and Limit I just flicked through their first kills on wowprogress. Also, you're going to have to define "burst spec" because if it just 'does a lot of damage' during cd windows then every spec is going to be a burst spec. I mean the difference between affs peak of like 300k and destro's of like 800k is huge.

For the entirety of this expansion Affliction has focused entirely around huge Darkglares. Both Destro and Affliction peak at around 400k on ST based on Shad'har logs(with default zoom, or if you set the zoom to be sameish fight length Destro and Affliction). Both Limit and Method heavily favored Destro. There's like 1 or 2 bosses with a single Affliction player for each of those guilds, the rest are all Destro.
And no, not every spec would be a burst spec with that definition. Feral's CD is absolute garbage, same thing for Shadowfiend for Shadow.

[Argorwal]

I mean... the current balance stance is broken either way. As DH 38% of my Damage comes from Infinite Star Proccs.

On the 3 bosses infinite stars isn't trash tier on (and all 3 are early/easy bosses).

- - - Updated - - -

Ret paladins have had this problem with Avenging Wrath for over a decade... I'd say "welcome to hell, it will never change", but Blizzard actually likes mages, so there is hope there at least.

This this 2 sided coin where you're trying to balance "I feel weak outside of my cooldowns" against "Why bother with my cooldown when its a marginal increase"

[Tarba]

Let me put in in simpler words as you have no idea what are you talking about.

It's not the borrowed power, it's class design problem, namely ignite, rune of power and it's scaling.
It's the spec that scales exponentially while other classes scales more linearly.

Fight length is dependent on how many burst specs you have no the other way around.
If you want to shorten fight by 30 seconds you replace your steady-dps specs with 2 fire mages.

lol
Like... lol.
You should do your math again.
Because if your fight is longer than the fire mage burst window and that your mage has a shit dps until his next burst window, well you won't go faster genius. You just did the first % faster and the % after slower.

If you want to shorten your fight you take overgeared people. And if you overgear enought that a high burst spec full dps comp can down bosses during their burst window without dying, good for you. You downed a boss your comp vastly overgeared.

[Schattenlied]

On the 3 bosses infinite stars isn't trash tier on (and all 3 are early/easy bosses).

- - - Updated - - -



This this 2 sided coin where you're trying to balance "I feel weak outside of my cooldowns" against "Why bother with my cooldown when its a marginal increase"

The line between the two isn't fine at all.... You act like tweaking it risks easily tipping it over to the other side, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Most class's cooldowns have neither of these problems, so it's clearly not that hard to balance them properly.

[TheLucky1]

Is it a problem though? It simply is end of xpac crazyness, during progress it's not near as crazy.
Ofc. specs with a lot less burst should have other advantages and niches, but you'll always see things like this at the end of an expansion where blizz just drops the balance ball, that's just the nature of burst heavy classes (and there will always be some for variety reasons).

[kaminaris]

lol
Like... lol.
You should do your math again.
Because if your fight is longer than the fire mage burst window and that your mage has a shit dps until his next burst window, well you won't go faster genius. You just did the first % faster and the % after slower.

If you want to shorten your fight you take overgeared people. And if you overgear enought that a high burst spec full dps comp can down bosses during their burst window without dying, good for you. You downed a boss your comp vastly overgeared.

I know math, you don't. And this has been proven good amount of time.
Higher the burst the shorter fight will be.

Infamous iron reaver going down in 18s.

[TheLucky1]

Let me put in in simpler words as you have no idea what are you talking about.

It's not the borrowed power, it's class design problem, namely ignite, rune of power and it's scaling.
It's the spec that scales exponentially while other classes scales more linearly.

Fight length is dependent on how many burst specs you have no the other way around.
If you want to shorten fight by 30 seconds you replace your steady-dps specs with 2 fire mages.

Only if you already have enough dps to put the boss under the burst class offensive cd's, this will never happen during progress.

Stuff is heavily outgeared now favoring burst, you will always see stuff like this at the end of an xpac.

- - - Updated - - -

I know math, you don't. And this has been proven good amount of time.
Higher the burst the shorter fight will be.

Infamous iron reaver going down in 18s.

At a point it didn't matter in any way.
You sound like the fun police.

[D3athsting]

Loving fire, but yeah... the reliance on combustion makes the time out of combustion feel lack luster. Narrowing the difference could make it feel better, dunno tbh.

They tried this in legion (because they were listening to trade chat feedback lulz) and fire went from good (with bracers) to total crap in nighthold (except meme aoe fights like skorpy or tichondrius