Political and Social Problems and Solutions Facing the United States - Discuss

[cubby]

A thread to discuss the overall good and bad politics and policies of the United States and ideas for how to solve them. Are there insurmountable problems? What's the timeline for major social change given the current political environment? How do we overcome incommunicable social divides?


*Please do NOT discuss Trump or the General Election in this thread. Those conversations can be redirected to the hyperlinks I've embedded.

[TigTone]

I guess I’ll start with the post I had in another thread.

The change some people want won’t happen as long as Boomer gen and the older Gen-X are still voting for their outdated beliefs and policy’s. (An extreme opinion).

Culture change is fucking slow.

The civil rights act was in 1964.
That was just 56 years ago.
Those racist and ass backward politicians and people are still mostly alive.
They raised their children same way they were raised.

People who want good change for all have a Mount Everest of a fight up wards.

At the moment the best solution I see is creating a quality school system for all Americans regardless of their background.

The smarter the citizens the harder it is for corruption politicians to spin their self serving lies.

In turn it will eventually push them out and allow for real progress and growth for the country.

[Endus]

No problems are "insurmountable", but you do have to go in with the understanding that some people will disapprove of whatever decision you make. If you establish a society that truly respects ethnic diversity and protects against any kind of prejudice on that front, then racists are gonna be super unhappy. The trick is; you need to know what interest groups, like "racists", you need to tell to fuck right off. And that needs to not be subtext; it needs to be open and loud and from the top down; you are bad, evil people, with bad and hurtful ideas, and we want you to fuck off. Just fuck right off.

Similarly, there are no "incommunicable social divides", but there ARE a lot of people with no interest in communicating across those social divides. Particularly the wealthy, and their dismissal of the concerns of the working poor; it doesn't really apply the other way around because the people working two jobs to put food on the table for their kids shouldn't be expected to have much patience for the complaints of wealthy people who want to buy their 16 year old a new Lambo for their birthday, and might have to downgrade to a BMW if you bump their taxes up a bit. They're listening, but what they hear is atrocious and sociopathic, so it's not given much consideration.

And unfortunately, not much is gonna get done to resolve these things unless those conversations happen. And whenever they come up, those enjoying privilege in the current status quo are always super fast to try and quiet that conversation down, to protect that privilege. Not all of them, of course, but enough.

[beanman12345]

We need to get big money out of politics. Everyone deserves equal representation, but only the wealthy have the lobbyists fighting for them, which is where the politicians pay attention to. You won't see McDonalds going out of business during this pandemic, They had lobbyist fighting for them to stay open because they are essential. Fine, but 25% of restaurants will not re-open, big corporations got big bailouts to keep in business, that I don't have a problem with, but EVERYONE should get a bailout to keep open. But the little guy doesn't have the money to pay for the lobbyist to get into the politicians ears to pass a bill. The stimulus bill was not terrible(was not great because of poor oversight but still overall good imo) but now they don't want to pass another because the corporations don't need it, just the little guy, and not enough care about the little guy.

[Zan15]

We need to get big money out of politics. Everyone deserves equal representation, but only the wealthy have the lobbyists fighting for them, which is where the politicians pay attention to. You won't see McDonalds going out of business during this pandemic, They had lobbyist fighting for them to stay open because they are essential. Fine, but 25% of restaurants will not re-open, big corporations got big bailouts to keep in business, that I don't have a problem with, but EVERYONE should get a bailout to keep open. But the little guy doesn't have the money to pay for the lobbyist to get into the politicians ears to pass a bill. The stimulus bill was not terrible(was not great because of poor oversight but still overall good imo) but now they don't want to pass another because the corporations don't need it, just the little guy, and not enough care about the little guy.

umm McDonalds had to follow the same rules as every other restaurant.
They just so happen to be more prepared to deal with no sit down business.

BTW don't confuse corporate McDonalds from the Franchise individually owned. One of our local MCD went out of business last month.


Also Small restaurants got money as well they do not need to payback. Corporations have to follow the same rules otherwise they have to pay back the money. If they are a large corporation most of them have to pay back the money no matter what they spend it on.


As for money in politics, you have to both get the money out and get the "after" office "rewards" out as well. Nothing like a senator being given 10 board of director jobs at 250k a pop per year once they leave office.

[beanman12345]

umm McDonalds had to follow the same rules as every other restaurant.
They just so happen to be more prepared to deal with no sit down business.

BTW don't confuse corporate McDonalds from the Franchise individually owned. One of our local MCD went out of business last month.


Also Small restaurants got money as well they do not need to payback. Corporations have to follow the same rules otherwise they have to pay back the money. If they are a large corporation most of them have to pay back the money no matter what they spend it on.


As for money in politics, you have to both get the money out and get the "after" office "rewards" out as well. Nothing like a senator being given 10 board of director jobs at 250k a pop per year once they leave office.

Im not arguing against McDonalds. But maybe a poor example to get my point across. Many small businesses struggle and close without a pandemic. But they've kinda been left high and dry and left in the banks hands, who are making out like bandits from this whole thing, meanwhile fatcats and getting government bailouts with full concierge treatment. Tens of thousands of small businesses were left out, and large companies got millions. My point is that as I said everyone deserves equal representation, the size of your wallet shouldn't matter in the mind of a politician. Lobbying isn't the problem, but it should be imo illegal for lobbyists to use money to buy influence. That would have a large impact on the after office problem as well.

[Stormspark]

I guess I’ll start with the post I had in another thread.

The change some people want won’t happen as long as Boomer gen and the older Gen-X are still voting for their outdated beliefs and policy’s. (An extreme opinion).

Culture change is fucking slow.

The civil rights act was in 1964.
That was just 56 years ago.
Those racist and ass backward politicians and people are still mostly alive.
They raised their children same way they were raised.

People who want good change for all have a Mount Everest of a fight up wards.

At the moment the best solution I see is creating a quality school system for all Americans regardless of their background.

The smarter the citizens the harder it is for corruption politicians to spin their self serving lies.

In turn it will eventually push them out and allow for real progress and growth for the country.

The problem is, school in the US isn't designed for learning, and hasn't been for some time. It's designed for indoctrination, period.

[TigTone]

The problem is, school in the US isn't designed for learning, and hasn't been for some time. It's designed for indoctrination, period.

No disagreement here, US school system is trash especially compared to successful systems.

[PC2]

What's the timeline for major social change given the current political environment?

Human progress is incremental so you should not expect any big jumps or leaps or any type of "reliable" timeline.

How do we overcome incommunicable social divides?

Through calmness and talking about the merit of ideas that are independent of people. In my experience social breakdowns have been caused by the inability to think one's own ideas can be false and somebody else could have a correct theory.

[Felya]

You focus on the next generation by improving schools, so things like propaganda, demagogues and subversion are less effect. A society that demands freedom of speech and expression, has to have a populace that has foundation where those will not be exploited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey

[Elegiac]

Human progress is incremental so you should not expect any big jumps or leaps or any type of "reliable" timeline.

Through calmness and talking about the merit of ideas that are independent of people. In my experience social breakdowns have been caused by the inability to think one's own ideas can be false and somebody else could have a correct theory.

As valuable an insight as saying everything that isn't a bread loaf is a non-bread loaf. Well done. We have now finally established that intellectual obstinacy is a thing, praise Satan. /s

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The problem is, school in the US isn't designed for learning, and hasn't been for some time. It's designed for indoctrination, period.

Big mood. Not just in terms of the historical aspect (like, inculcating the myths surrounding the early history of the US), but also in the inherently Taylorist aspects still present in the school system.

[D3thray]

The problem is, school in the US isn't designed for learning, and hasn't been for some time. It's designed for indoctrination, period.

To be fair learning is indoctrination.

[Elegiac]

To be fair learning is indoctrination.

Ah, speaking of political and social problems in the US.

What are we to do about the chronic problem of anti-intellectualism and the anti-science viewpoints that has encouraged?

[Felya]

Big mood. Not just in terms of the historical aspect (like, inculcating the myths surrounding the early history of the US), but also in the inherently Taylorist aspects still present in the school system.

I was in AP American History, around 4 years after I started learning English, because just 3 years in Russian schools gave me an advantage in learning, that over overcame language barriers. The problem with US education isn’t what they teach, but how they teach. Multiple choice is a memory game, not a way to test learning.

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To be fair learning is indoctrination.

Indoctrination and learning are two parallel lines, going in opposite directions.

[Elegiac]

I was in AP American History, around 4 years after I started learning English, because just 3 years in Russian schools gave me an advantage in learning, that over overcame language barriers. The problem with US education isn’t what they teach, but how they teach. Multiple choice is a memory game, not a way to test learning.

Well, yeah. That's what I mean by Taylorism.

American education as we understand it was conceived of as a method of churning out good factory workers.

[Elegiac]

Yeah Taylorism is bullshit, instead of pumping out cookie cutter workers we should be training the next generation of creative and innovative thinkers.

I'm not interested in a "we" with anyone silly enough to think extrapolation isn't a thing, thanks.

[PC2]

I'm not interested in a "we" with anyone silly enough to think extrapolation isn't a thing, thanks.

You haven't realized yet? There's no amount of extrapolation that can ever determine the future ahead of time. The future absolutely never unfolds based on historical probability.

[Elegiac]

You haven't realized yet? There's no amount of extrapolation that can ever determine the future ahead of time. The future absolutely never unfolds based on historical probability.

Yeah, there was a time when this was amusing but given recent events I prefer my right wingers with the mask off. Ignored.

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Anyway, back to the point.

What are we to do about the chronic problem of anti-intellectualism and the anti-science viewpoints that has encouraged?

[d00mGuArD]

No problems are "insurmountable", but you do have to go in with the understanding that some people will disapprove of whatever decision you make. If you establish a society that truly respects ethnic diversity and protects against any kind of prejudice

Similarly, there are no "incommunicable social divides", but there ARE a lot of people with no interest in communicating across those social divides. Particularly the wealthy, and their dismissal of the concerns of the working poor; it doesn't really apply the other way around because the people working two jobs to put food on the table for their kids shouldn't be expected to have much patience for the complaints of wealthy people who want to buy their 16 year old a new Lambo for their birthday, and might have to downgrade to a BMW if you bump their taxes up a bit. They're listening, but what they hear is atrocious and sociopathic, so it's not given much consideration.

And unfortunately, not much is gonna get done to resolve these things unless those conversations happen. And whenever they come up, those enjoying privilege in the current status quo are always super fast to try and quiet that conversation down, to protect that privilege. Not all of them, of course, but enough.

The laws for this exist in every 1st world country as far as I know.
They are just not enforced.
So I guess more law enforcement is needed

[Elegiac]

The laws for this exist in every 1st world country as far as I know.
They are just not enforced.
So I guess more law enforcement is needed

Do y'all have a solution to any given policy problem besides "throw white men with guns at it"?

In hindsight I realise the deep significance of this question when applied to American government more generally. Yikes.