Unpopular opinion: 10 man raids should make a return in Shadowlands.

[Onikaroshi]

Alright, but how much of that was because people weren't actually serious about raiding and how much of that was because people just didn't want to raid in larger groups? Because, like, if it isn't the latter, you'd think my guild that raided in the middle of the fucking night wouldn't have been able to recruit the right players... but we did. Obviously anecdotal but it stands to reason that the biggest group of players negatively impacted by the switch to 20M Mythic wasn't the progression-oriented 10M's (though there was some collateral damage, as the many voices in this thread prove), it was the innumerable casual Heroic 10M guilds that weren't all that serious about raiding in the first place.

We don't know, but there was really no reason to cause it in the first place. For me, I don't like large group raiding. I tried mythic 20 at the start, it just wasn't fun. I prefer the small, intimate, raid groups.

I dealt with 40 and then 25 man when it was required, I'm not going back to that, 10 man is just so much better.

[Relapses]

We don't know, but there was really no reason to cause it in the first place. For me, I don't like large group raiding. I tried mythic 20 at the start, it just wasn't fun. I prefer the small, intimate, raid groups.

I dealt with 40 and then 25 man when it was required, I'm not going back to that, 10 man is just so much better.

Seeing as we're largely arguing from our own personal perspectives and it's unlikely we'll change each other minds, a question for you: Would you be as satisfied if Blizzard were to release two or three smaller 10M-only raids to supplement the larger 20M Mythic raids? Or would you only be satisfied if the only way to raid is a version of Mythic that either flexes or is 10M fixed?

[Onikaroshi]

Seeing as we're largely arguing from our own personal perspectives and it's unlikely we'll change each other minds, a question for you: Would you be as satisfied if Blizzard were to release two or three smaller 10M-only raids to supplement the larger 20M Mythic raids? Or would you only be satisfied if the only way to raid is a version of Mythic that either flexes or is 10M fixed?

I'd be fine with an equally difficult 10 man raid of equal quality to to the main raid of that patch, of equal length and I have a better chance of growing a third arm than of that happening.

[kaminaris]

I mean beyond seige of org you never really had a challenge in 10 man. It was far easier by design for almost every tier

Listen here, I don't know on which private server you were playing but it wasn't far easier on retail. And definitely wasn't even close to current heroic.

Exact top 200 guilds and duration it took them to kill from first to last boss:

T13 (10M HC)
1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 18:20
Last boss: Feb 10, 2012 19:27

Total: 65 days

T13 (25M HC)
1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 20:54
Last boss: Feb 22, 2012 20:57

Total: 77 days

T15 (10M HC)
1st boss: Mar 13, 2013 20:31
Last boss: Jun 20, 2013 18:37

Total: 99 days

T15 (25M HC)
1st boss: Mar 27, 2013 01:56
Last boss: Aug 6, 2013 02:35

Total: 132 days

T16 (10M HC)
1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 20:37
Last boss: Jan 28, 2014 19:28

Total: 132 days

T15 (25M HC)
1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 02:39
Last boss: Feb 7, 2014 05:30

Total: 142 days

Nyalotha 20 Mythic
1st boss: Jan 30, 2020 18:12
Last boss: Apr 5, 2020

Total: 66 days

Nyalotha random amount of people heroic PUG

Total ~5 days (at worst), prolly cleared day 1

[nekobaka]

I would love to see the role distribution in these "want 10 man back" topics.

I raided as healer. In 10 man groups your responsibility is so much bigger than in a 20/25 man group. There is you and the other healer and that's it. Some like the extra stress, not me. Especially not as those days resto shaman (wouldn't know how resto plays nowadays, haven't raided since mid wod, but back then nuissances were apparent, even in mop)

It was quite nuts when I was seeing guilds solo heal fights in particular ones where spacing was involved leading to coverage gaps. It is something larger groups do not have to deal with. If I recall correctly blizzard did entertain 15 man as a possibility while effectively nodding that 10 mans due to class competition is just not on the table anymore.

I have longed liked the idea of 15 man groups and loathe the thought of 10 mans coming back. If I want a tight nit group then I will stick with 5 mans.

[deenman]

Only if you don't want any challenge

challenge is subjective,and considering there are more people doing hc than doing mythic,id say its challenge enough for them,heck plenty of normal only guilds out there,and yes there are guilds out there with people that simply cant make the jump to mythic or even hc

[Laughingjack]

Listen here, I don't know on which private server you were playing but it wasn't far easier on retail. And definitely wasn't even close to current heroic.

Exact top 200 guilds and duration it took them to kill from first to last boss:

T13 (10M HC)
1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 18:20
Last boss: Feb 10, 2012 19:27

Total: 65 days

T13 (25M HC)
1st boss: Dec 7, 2011 20:54
Last boss: Feb 22, 2012 20:57

Total: 77 days

T15 (10M HC)
1st boss: Mar 13, 2013 20:31
Last boss: Jun 20, 2013 18:37

Total: 99 days

T15 (25M HC)
1st boss: Mar 27, 2013 01:56
Last boss: Aug 6, 2013 02:35

Total: 132 days

T16 (10M HC)
1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 20:37
Last boss: Jan 28, 2014 19:28

Total: 132 days

T15 (25M HC)
1st boss: Sep 18, 2013 02:39
Last boss: Feb 7, 2014 05:30

Total: 142 days

Nyalotha 20 Mythic
1st boss: Jan 30, 2020 18:12
Last boss: Apr 5, 2020

Total: 66 days

Nyalotha random amount of people heroic PUG

Total ~5 days (at worst), prolly cleared day 1

I mean most kills were done by the same 25 man team that just cleared the tier. It wasn't used for progression in most instances..

[deenman]

It was quite nuts when I was seeing guilds solo heal fights in particular ones where spacing was involved leading to coverage gaps. It is something larger groups do not have to deal with. If I recall correctly blizzard did entertain 15 man as a possibility while effectively nodding that 10 mans due to class competition is just not on the table anymore.

I have longed liked the idea of 15 man groups and loathe the thought of 10 mans coming back. If I want a tight nit group then I will stick with 5 mans.

the ability to solo heal has many more factors to it,boss design,is there more unavoidable damage coming in than one healer can manage?how does the tank fair?if you have figths where the tank is taking consistant damage and the raid,then solo healing wont be very posible,these days solo healing is a bit hard because of mecanical reasons,but in hfc for example it was pretty easy,as a shaman i could solo heal every hc boss in a 20 ish grp,mostly because the tank needed like no healing back then

[Stabbyfists]

Here is a reason I do not want to see 10 man raids come into the game ever again

Guilds Broke down cause of 10 man raiding. I had to say goodbye to my friends who were doing JUST fine in 25 man, but didnt pull the numbers or had the buffs we needed in 10 mans. Your class didnt have a reliable interupt? Gone. You dont bring mark of the wild? Fuck off warlock, DKs and Druids can bres too.

MMORPGS are about socializing, working as a team, and progressing through the content. Making raid sizes smaller always meant less socializing. Yes, it was hard saying goodbye to people when 25 man raiding became the norm, but it was still fine. 25 people on comms was alot better and more organized than 40.

Like I said in an earlier post, 10 and 20 man mythic cannot coexist with Personal Loot. If personal Loot is still a thing, no legit raiding team will go 20 man raiding simply because there is no point in making things harder on themselves and that punishes people who do have legit 20 man raid teams. Hell my guild has upwards of nearly 26 players on for Mythic Nights and nearly 40 players online on our weekend heroic team / alt team. Big guilds are not dead but 10 man raiding would be the final nail in the coffin for big guilds because while we love to socialize, we do like progression, and players will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance.

Also 10 man raiding would bring with it the same arguments I saw in Cataclysm when 10 man Heroics were a thing. People were legitimately asking for 5 man heroic raiding. If 10 man mythic raiding becomes a thing, thats the next thing people ask for. Then Raiding will no longer be raiding, they will simply be long form dungeons with better loot.

I am happy with the 20 man raiding scene. I feel like its the sweet spot for raiding. I just wish they would open up Cross Realm right away so we could trial players or even have raiders not in our guild and save them money.

[Quaade]

I

Cons:

Less gear drops

Easier to leave a guild and join another 10 man group. Doubled edged sword of 10 man raiding.

?


What are your opinions on Mythic raiding in it's current state? the biggest thing for me has always been getting to know more and more people, it's difficult to juggle all of that and real life at times, 10 man raiding was fun, engaging, and it felt more..personal between the 10 members in the raid.


Thanks for contributing to my post!

A con is that it's impossible to balance and adds another tier of gear into the mix. Like flex now there are were some fights that were easier on 10-man and some that were way harder.

[Athulua]

Eh, no. Flexible raid size was a big success and it is here to stay.
I really disliked 10 man raiding, as it was dominating over bigger 25 player format, hardly any 25 player guilds survived in Cata and MOP
Loot distribution was terrible and disenchanting gear on progression kills was commonplace. Intellect plate in a raid with no paladins says hello. Or 8 protector tokens in a row with hardly anything else dropping over an entire tier.

Nothing stopping you from forming a 10 player guild and running the raids in 2/2/6 comp. You can do this if you wish. Just don't try to say it's better for everyone because it is not.

[Onikaroshi]

challenge is subjective,and considering there are more people doing hc than doing mythic,id say its challenge enough for them,heck plenty of normal only guilds out there,and yes there are guilds out there with people that simply cant make the jump to mythic or even hc

Completely different situation, the hardest version of raiding lost 10 man, many want it back

[deenman]

Completely different situation, the hardest version of raiding lost 10 man, many want it back

I get it,but simply put it didnt work,10 and 25 doesnt work on the same difficulty scale,they cant balance it and call it ''equal'',10 man is either going to end up to easy or to hard compared to the 25,and the 25 version has to have design compromises so it doesnt fuck up the 10 version,early cata was a mess,granted some of the issues were tuning mistakes

[Onikaroshi]

I get it,but simply put it didnt work,10 and 25 doesnt work on the same difficulty scale,they cant balance it and call it ''equal'',10 man is either going to end up to easy or to hard compared to the 25,and the 25 version has to have design compromises so it doesnt fuck up the 10 version,early cata was a mess,granted some of the issues were tuning mistakes

Worked fine for me, don't care what others are doing. Mop was some of the best raiding I've seen

[Levogames]

Intellect plate in a raid with no paladins says hello. Or 8 protector tokens in a row with hardly anything else dropping over an entire tier.

I think you're that kind of player who needed loot when all that we needed before was just skill because the gear would come one day or another.
Also, 25man allowed people to get comfortable without even thinking on mechanics/high amounts of healing to survive damage phases.

[deenman]

Worked fine for me, don't care what others are doing. Mop was some of the best raiding I've seen

Yeah i dont disagree,i also liked 10 man endgame,but it was simply unfair,not only was 25 easier,but they basicaly got a much easier time with loot drops

I remember going from a 10h guild to a 25h and it felt like a different game

[Athulua]

I think you're that kind of player who needed loot when all that we needed before was just skill because the gear would come one day or another.
Also, 25man allowed people to get comfortable without even thinking on mechanics/high amounts of healing to survive damage phases.

Normally I don't care that much about loot

But then Tier 14 came out and with it the legendary questline. I completed it, received the +500 agi gem and the eye that could drill another socket.

Thing is, you would need a Sha-Touched Weapon to use them on. And this piece of shit never dropped. It was dropping from Lei Shi, which on 10 man dropped 2 items, one of which was always a tier token. So the odds were just 1 to 17. Way too low for something pretty much mandatory. I ran LFR normal and hc, coined this bastard every week. I never saw this weapon. My quest rewards rotted in bank for an entire patch duration.

This is the kind of crap that made me hate 10-man raiding and that bullshit loot system.

Now we got personal, which is 4 items per boss max. Ill eventually get anything, you will not run into a situation where a crucial item for character performance has less than 5% chance to even show up (and then you need to actually win it)

[Bepples]

What... the fuck? I never said it was? I'm stating facts: After 10M Heroic was removed, the game has had 10 million subscribers twice on record and the expansions are selling better than they ever have in the past. If 10M Heroic were this huge fucking problem that you suggest, then people wouldn't be buying the fucking game. It's insane that I have to explain this to you.

Never mind that this argument is ludicrous due to the correlation v.s. causation fallacy, particularly due to the simple fact that people can continue to play the game despite certain changes they don't like, but it doesn't even work from a correlation standpoint. That expansion you keep using as a model of success? It lost all of those new subscribers and then even more within a year of release. By quarter 3 2015 that sub count had nearly halved and reached levels not seen since classic WoW. It was so bad that they permanently stopped announcing sub counts. As for raid participation: the figures were similarly bleak. I remember having this discussion at the time. You were looking at something like 50% less guilds doing the highest difficulty.

As for the 10 man model: there's not much else to say other than the very peak subscriber count of WoW was reached in a time where 10 man raiding was an option.

I suspect you know all of this full well, however, and this is why you carefully word your way around it by referring only to how expansions did on launch and not how they did over time.

You also seem to subscribe to the opinion that 10 man was the easy, casual mode, which demonstrates your cluelessness. 10 man was often the harder of the two. There was no room for carries and individual mistakes and carries mattered a lot more. It also limited your choice in composition. Garrosh, the last boss to ever be available on the highest difficulty on 10 man, was drastically harder on that setting compared to 25 man. It did depend on the raid and boss, but there were plenty of instances throughout the expansions where 10 man was absolutely the more challenging choice.

[Mozu]

I mean its still there in normal and heroic

By this logic you'd be perfectly fine with 20M mythic being taken down to 10M as long as you can still do 20M in flex normal and heroics, right?

[Dudenoso]

In order for them to design great fights and mechanics, you simply need a certain amount of people for it to work. 20m is barely enough in my opinion.
...
The amount of mechanics they can design would be extremely limited with 10m in mind.

Lols in FFXIV.