Raider.io is almost perfect

[Laqweeta]

It is useless if you ask me, all it does is show who has been a buyer of runs

Oh cool then don't use it.

[araine]

You need to buy a sh*tload of runs to have both raitng AND quantity of completed dungeons (both numbers are provided via addon).

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And it fails often, because they're casuals. And most of the players are casuals. If failed runs will affect raitng, most scorers will stop helping others.

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Ok, you want to time 17 key. You got into party finder and got something like 30-40 players without any indication of their success in pushing keys.
How do you chose ones that will not fail your key? Will start to check everyone, searching blizzard keys leaderboard? And while checking, some of players will go to other parties and newer will arrive?
Raider.io rating gives your some basic indication that player at least been in the high key dungeon. You can also quick check a quantity of his succesful runs and, if you need, raider.io provides detailed info about said dungeon you're interested - like how many times player cleared it, complexity of keys, affixes he closed it etc.
Its a good tool to form a party.

Yes it is so good that you decline people that has 470 gear and just wants to do a low key like a 10 for shits and giggles but since that 470 isnt a buyer or interested in spending every day running mythics they cant get into a 10 even if they will rofflestomp the trash running the key. so yeah tell me again how useless it is

[iinverse]

Yes it is so good that you decline people that has 470 gear and just wants to do a low key like a 10 for shits and giggles but since that 470 isnt a buyer or interested in spending every day running mythics they cant get into a 10 even if they will rofflestomp the trash running the key. so yeah tell me again how useless it is

Gear ilvl can work only for low keys, and means nothing for high keys. You can be 475 and wipe party on the first packs of 17-18 key just because you know nothing even about which casts you need to interrupt and which are not. I saw a bunch of 475 that die in the beginning of each bossfight in high keys because they think that ilvl can save them from learning tactic.

And as I said, its just a convenient tool. Which you need to use with brain of course. If someone used it wrong (like asking ridicious rio for 10 key) - its that man problem. I ignore such persons (its like 1-2%) and just look for other teams with adequate prereqs. Pugged pretty good amount of keys both like dps and tank on a several toons and I'm fine with rio.

[Kuntantee]

Even if API could track all kinds of runs, your score system discourage helping guildies\friends with weekly keys.

Why is that? You get points even if you can not time it.

[SirCowdog]

Allowing to turn it off will result in heavy abusing of it.
Playing on alt... well, its poible, but you need to gear/farm it, and this xpac at least mainly wasn't pretty alt friendly.


For me - yes, I mainly do not care about rated play.
But I assume it will turn off people who care more about rating, and they will have some sort of excuse for that.

The problem is that there's no real way to completely avoid gaming the system as long as it's automated. And people will always want more information than such a system can provide, because boiling down a person's ability or experience with dungeons to a score is too simplistic.

It's the conflict between wanting all that info and wanting a quick look reference.

I think another big hurdle is that players want and expect perfection, but ignore the reality of people leaving groups or failing ALOT more often than we'd like to admit.

I'm not really sure how to address that other than to have some sort of shared responsibility instead of having the key depletion only be suffered by the owner. But then that becomes subject to trolling, which of course isn't ideal.

Maybe some kind of system like Steam uses to rank games? Where you have an overall lifetime score for the season or patch, but also a recent score based on the current month or week?

[iinverse]

Why is that? You get points even if you can not time it.

Also it will be counted as failed attempt in time? If no, I see no point in this, because it will count 1st or 200th time success as timed anyway.

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Maybe some kind of system like Steam uses to rank games? Where you have an overall lifetime score for the season or patch, but also a recent score based on the current month or week?

You can still go to raider.io page of a certain player (addon allows this straigh from the game) and see his history of runs. It doesn't parse conpletely failed keys though (because you can't get this info anyhow via blizz API), but tracks failed timers.

Also, for weekly ratings... I think it will be too overcomplicated (because you will want to see how's player ranks across all combinations of affixes to see if he do his runs on very easy combinations or can push hardest... or somewhere between it), or it will require a lot of work from raider.io team to track and change raitng modifiers according to blizz balance patches\current max corruption level\affixes and its interactions with dungeon mechanics and even current obelisk minibosses distribution. Also if you want it to be prefect, it must count party setup, because something say rogue\dh\bm will make runs overall easier than say frost mage\feral\enh shammy.
Doubt they will make such changes in rating calculations.

[Athulua]

There is a middle ground. You can consider a finished dungeon as a success, but with less points. Timing it gives you the most points. Leaving should decrease your score. This is the optimal system in my opinion, but might be technically not possible because you need an API to differentiate a timed finish, a non-timed finish and an unsuccessful finish.

Which is exactly what RIO does. Failing the timer dramatically tanks the score.
+11 key is normally worth 110 pts
We failed FH 11 with just about 2% timer going over the limit. Literally expired during final boss fight
Score awarded was 99 which is lower than a base score +10 key. You lose an entire level for just a tiny close call.
If you are pushing for rating it's much better to consistently time a lower key than to spend hours in an extremely high one.
If timing the key was not a factor, then MDI players would just sit for hours in a +40 dungeon, CC'ing every mob and killing trash one by one.

[Coldkil]

I don't remember if it was in this thread or another about r.io, but some helpful guy told me a basic checklist to make so i had a decent score to start being able to use the LFG tool for M+.

Excluding the fact i wasn't able to run all dungeons in a week, i was able to do a range of them from 3 to 13 with also the help of some guildies. So right now i'm just shy of 800 score, and plan to make so i can go at least +10 on every single one of them.

However, i don't feel like i'm progressing. Maybe it's because it's late/end expansion and everything, but i'm basically "abusing" the system. I'm targeting runs so i can increase a fictional score just to be able to group with people, but not actually aiming to make a progression or whatever. I don't know, on one side i do it because it's needed for my own progression (gear basically) on the other i just feel i'm being boosted (while i try to bring my own weight).

Whatever, i think i just need to eat it and follow the rules people seem to have enforced on the game. Once i'm able to run a 15 each week (or whatever the cap is/will be) i will be content with it.

[iinverse]

Its both about late\end patch and a lot of experienced guys already did a lot of runs.

Progression is really hard at the start (both for keys and raids) when noone have decent gear\a lot of corruptions\essences\etc.

So if you want real challenge, try to do some early patch progression.

[Coldkil]

Its both about late\end patch and a lot of experienced guys already did a lot of runs.

Progression is really hard at the start (both for keys and raids) when noone have decent gear\a lot of corruptions\essences\etc.

So if you want real challenge, try to do some early patch progression.

Eh, depends on work/IRL schedule Tghough i'm not really interested int he ladder climbing - i do that cause it's become mandatory.

[iinverse]

Eh, depends on work/IRL schedule Tghough i'm not really interested int he ladder climbing - i do that cause it's become mandatory.

I don't ask you to clumb high, but in early patches even clumbing to +10 is somewhat interesting

[Tiwack]

Timechallengers should leave raiders out of it and change the name already.

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Too bad.

Learn the dungeons on 2. Raise your io with 7s and 8s. Timing all 7s puts you at nearly 1k io, It's not hard to do and understand. There's too many bads in this game and RIO is a b l e s s i n g

Relying on 3rd party services to make arbitrary gatekeeping like this only creates more bads as they've no way to learn anything other than buying boosts is worth it to skip the hassle and butthurt.

[iinverse]

Relying on 3rd party services to make arbitrary gatekeeping like this only creates more bads as they've no way to learn anything other than buying boosts is worth it to skip the hassle and butthurt.

Actually that's total bullshit.
You can easily find party to run any key ut 10 to without rio rating at all, where you can practice, because timer is pretty weak here.
And managing to close all +10 gives you over 1,2k raiting just by playing, that gives you a pretty decent start to moving further to +12-13.

Of course it will not work for not willing to work on their progress players "blah-blah-curve-blah-blah-rio-boost me through full heroic\15+ key now!"

[Coldkil]

I don't ask you to clumb high, but in early patches even clumbing to +10 is somewhat interesting

I'll likely try for Shadowlands. Both in Legion and BfA i went in hiatus after the first tier and a half, to return at the end of expansion. M+ specifically burned me out a lot, due to strange IRL schedule and inability to group with guildies, while LFG is the most elitist environment ever.

Right now though the returning back has been pretty good. I am prgressing consistently, likely i'll be able to run HC and get AOTC (which is my personal goal for every tier, i don't care a lot about M even if i like the challenge it represents).

If i'm able to mantain the pace, i think i'll be in a sweet spot for Shadowlands. We'll see how it goes.

[keldarepewpew]

Too bad.

Learn the dungeons on 2. Raise your io with 7s and 8s. Timing all 7s puts you at nearly 1k io, It's not hard to do and understand. There's too many bads in this game and RIO is a b l e s s i n g

Yikes asif a 7 is worth running.

[iinverse]

Yikes asif a 7 is worth running.

Worth if you're learning.

[Xath]

There's no other way to get compulsive leavers since the system can't catch unfinished dungeons. Unless they make it so you can upload a dungeon log that will show the unfinished dungeon, thus spiting the leaver since it will appear on their page.

You don't get compulsive leavers if you don't wipe multiple times before the first boss

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Ah yes, I remember when raider.io was causing people to demand being able to link a 10 hero chive for a 10 normal pug or 25 hero gearscore reqs for 10 normal pugs.

It's almost like it's not the tool's fault the wow community doesn't understand how content progression works...

Eh it's more that a weekly alt heroic clear isn't something that people want to do progression for they just want to get it done quick.

[Malix Farwin]

Your score can be bought... it is in no way perfect. Farm from it actually.

[iinverse]

Your score can be bought... it is in no way perfect. Farm from it actually.

Everything can be bought. Even mythic raid progresion at week one.

But besides of a several buyers (like 0,001%) that can buy a sh*tload of runs to make both their rio raitng AND quantity of timed dungeons, there are a plenty of players that can't even dps properly not mentioned about interrupts and tactics. So raider io rating was created as the initial filter for forming pug teams of players who can do certain key level dungeons and it serves its right. Even if some people (I pugged a lot of keays and saw maybe 1 or 2% of it) use it wrong doesnt mean its a bad tool.

[Kuntantee]

Which is exactly what RIO does. Failing the timer dramatically tanks the score.

Not really. It's not exactly the same, not even close. My system will work, only if you punish the leavers. Otherwise, people will leave if they "think" the run is not going to be timed.

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Also it will be counted as failed attempt in time? If no, I see no point in this, because it will count 1st or 200th time success as timed anyway.

No. My system punishes the leavers, and gives you incentive to complete.

If you time it, say you got 10 points. If you can't time it, you get 5 points. If you leave, you get -5 points.