Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Felya]

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. It's easy to blame the system, when there are none.

Do you think Floyd is doing time as a... g.. g.. g... GHOST?!?!?!

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Do you have any evidence for this, or are you just pulling things out your ass to blame the victims of police brutality?

A large portion of the public believes in ghosts. /shrug...

I ain't afraid of no ghost... although, I’ve never tried to learn how to make a clay vase. They seem very helpful and, maybe even a little too comforting, in teaching.

[Thekri]

One noticable thing i noticed from the
micheal brown and freddie gray protests
is most republicans atleast have gone from
"he was a thug and deserved it"
to "It was bad what happened to george floyd, and protesters are fine except leftist/democrats are the violent agitators"

thats an improvement atleast in rhetoric right?

so i appreciate people like marco rubio becoming woke
have to give credit where credit is due, its also nice republicans ditched steve king!

I think it is really more a function of the really blatant nature of Floyd's murder. It is really, really hard to argue it was anything other then a vicious murdering of a helpless man. There are alternate interpretations of events for most of them, not so much this one.

For reference, the knee on the neck thing is actually a standard technique for a reason, I have actually had to do it while deployed when we had to detain some people, but murdering someone that way requires you do do it VERY differently then any possible reasonable application of it. The concept behind the move is do immobilize the neck, thus preventing him from whipping it around and injuring himself on the ground. If you have a detainee laying on the ground, with his legs stretched out, the person has no real movement options that can threaten you, but if the Detainee is really really mad, or high, or whatever, they are likely to be slamming their head around in anger or frustration, trying to bite you, whatever. This is going to mess up their face really bad. So the proper way to stop it is to use you left knee to place it along their lower jaw (NOT the fleshy part of their neck) and apply gentle pressure to push their head into the ground. This immobilizes the head, keeps the pressure on the bone, while maintaining airflow. The person can even keep talking in this position if they want. The other key is only maintain it for 10-15 seconds, after that, most of the time the suspect will have calmed down enough to stop thrashing. If they start again, you repeat.

This is what both military and police are trained to do. Immobilize and prevent harm to yourself, the detainee, and bystanders. That is NOT what happened to Floyd. When he was immobilized an vulnerable, the officer murdered him by repeatedly and deliberately grinding his knee into the fleshy part of the throat, and kept doing it until he died. There is absolutely no room for any other interpretation. You can't stomp someones throat for almost 9 minutes straight by accident.

[wunksta]

I think nothing is wrong with how black people are treated by police.

[Machismo]

I think nothing is wrong with how black people are treated by police. I also think everything that happened this past week was utterly pointless since the cop would of been charged and investigated regardless and this riot is full of useless people looking to steal.

Well, statistics disagree with you.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, what has been accomplished beyond really pushing the idea that a more militarized police force and arming yourself is a good idea at this point?

I never believed for a moment this was anything but a reason to loot and start fires and the rioters are damn determined to prove me right every night.

Every state has a protest and so do totally uninvolved country’s you goomba every night proves you wrong as if it was just to start fires and riots all of America and even other country’s would be burning.

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Honestly everyone stealing and looting does. It is only a tiny fringe group that thinks this is anything more then and excuse to steal.

Every. Single. State. Country’s across the fucking ocean, it’s not a tiny fringe any one would a functioning brain can see that.

[Coolthulhu]

You're pretty good at moving the goal post, it's never what has been talked about, it's always something different.

We are now apparently talking only about Italy, when this was about the US. Also that it takes you days to formulate an answer is just boring. I really don't want to get back to every other post just to find where you went wrong or what you're talking about now.

Just for reference because you are really really bad at following discussions, probably because you answer to posts days later:

1) It does not make the call anymore believable because people who call the police on the police aren't viewed as rational by the police.
How could I be conveniently ignoring something no one ever mentioned? (you do this all the time) I didn't know a citizen could call the military police on the normal police, to investigate something. I did not know the military police in Italy has the authority to do that, this is not normal.

2) Ok, next time I'll quote only the part that I answer to not a whole paragraph so you are able to conveniently pick and choose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality#Italy <- a few cases of police brutality leading mostly to no charges, you know, because the system investigates itself so well.

About the racism part, both lega north and 5 stars are anti-immigration ... that's usually a good indication for racist tendencies, how many votes combined did they get?
example: https://www.euractiv.com/section/jus...tional-racism/

No surprise you're not viewing lega north as racists despite them being best friends with racists around Europe. Here's a quote from Iwobi that might explain why he is with lega north: "Our country needs a government that puts the wellbeing of its citizens first. ... We have to give hope back to this country."
And some more info on that guy: https://www.thelocal.it/20180306/ita...i-iwobi-league

In perceived corruption, Italy ranks lower than the US.
https://www.transparency.org/en/countries/italy

And fighting it could solve most of Italy's problems, of course, the real issue is migration though because racism is fun.
https://www.thelocal.it/20181207/ita...pe-study-shows

3) Well, yes, you were denying it, you said "A world where if a cop is caught abusing his power he's fired and investigated.". An exception that took 10 years, I mean, how many people were involved for it to go on for 10 years?

It is funny though that you disagree with yourself. You probably should've read your own posts before writing that wall of text.

Here, I'll help you out:





So which is it? No problem at all or a systemic problem?

Please ignore this post if your answer takes days, if not I will because this is taking so much time.

You were the one to infer that Italy had a systemic racism problem, so who's moving the goalpost, really?
Also, if me taking days to reply irritates you, perhaps it is you that should be ignoring my posts - and I know this might come as a shock to you, but not everyone has the time to log on MMO-Champ every single day.

As to your points:
1) yes, I had mentioned that we have the option of calling either the regular or military police:

Well, I hope that's not the norm. It's far from the norm here at least, and I'm glad for it. Also glad to have the option to call either the regular or the military police.

Also, credible or not, the police doesn't get to decide whether to intervene or not when such a call is made. They are obliged to (and then if the call proves unreliable, whoever made the call faces legal consequences).
2) Are you comparing eight (8) cases in 20 years, all of which perpetrated against whites (I thought we were talking about systemic racism) to the American situation? Is that your trump card? Worth pointing out that Carlo Giuliani was about to cave a cop's head in with a fire extinguisher when he was shot in self-defence, by the way.
Anti-illegal immigration doesn't automatically mean racism. M5S, which unlike the Northern League is still in power, is in the process of regularizing 600.000 illegal immigrants, and they often opposed NL's stance on migrants. There undoubtedly are racist elements within the Northern League (which is no longer in power), but to brand them all as racist is a baseless generalization. As to that article about Iwoby you posted, all I can say is read it again, because you either enjoy shooting yourself in the foot, or you didn't really read it and came to hilariously wrong conclusions. A bit of advice: if you're not familiar with the mechanics of a given country's politics, don't pretend to be.
You went on to say that in Italy perceived corruption is lower than in the US, and posted an article stating:

89 percent of Italians think that corruption is “extremely widespread” in their country, with 84 percent convinced that it is “part of the business culture” of Italy.

Which is exactly what I was saying: Italy's main issue is systemic corruption, not systemic racism. And I'm the one who disagrees with himself? I'd be laughing if I weren't feeling embarrassed for you.
3) You clearly have no idea how long legal proceedings of any kind take in Italy. With a cover-up, 10 years are pretty normal. I still fail to see your point though. Do I really need to state for the 3rd or 4th time that Cucchi was white and that what's systematic in Italy is corruption and not racism? Because I'm starting to feel bad for you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

One noticable thing i noticed from the
micheal brown and freddie gray protests
is most republicans atleast have gone from
"he was a thug and deserved it"
to "It was bad what happened to george floyd, and protesters are fine except leftist/democrats are the violent agitators"

thats an improvement atleast in rhetoric right?

so i appreciate people like marco rubio becoming woke
have to give credit where credit is due, its also nice republicans ditched steve king!

Nan fuck em they deserve no credit it’s been over 100 years of this shit giving a bull shit responses should be met with absolute distain. If your on the right and you firmly stand against what’s going on your a coward a racist or a boot licker and all three should be met with distain.

[Endus]

there are liberals in this very thread defending the rioting and looting

If you bothered to pay attention, you'd notice that it isn't actually direct support for rioting and looting.

It's an acknowledgement that rioting and looting is not occurring in a vacuum.

That the rioting and looting has a cause.

That cause is centuries of historical and still-current injustice and prejudice and abuse along racial lines, in the USA.

You want to fix the problem and prevent future riots and looting? Fix that injustice. Not "whatever current incident sparked off riots", fix the underlying systemic prejudice that allowed it to occur. That means eliminating all racist cops from every department. It means strong prosecution of any suspected incident of abuse by an officer. It means police forces that exist to protect the civilian population, not to suppress and beat down that population.

Because frankly, that shit's a way bigger issue than the riots and looting. The demand that protests all be "peaceful" is inherently an argument that people should accept the status quo.

The biggest issue is not that the protests are breaking out into violence. The biggest issue is that injustice in the USA is so bad it's erupting into violence, at all.

And the biggest issue with the outbreaks of violence is that it isn't organized, yet. That means the damage done is random and other innocents get hurt. Which is awful. But if some figures took the reins and guide that violence better, yeah. Wouldn't have an issue with it. I don't like seeing random stores get smashed into and looted. But police cars burned in the streets, and police precincts attacked? The cops brought it on themselves. Step on people's necks long enough with your jackboots, and they'll remember they vastly outnumber you, and your weaponry won't fucking matter.

[Xilurm]

If you bothered to pay attention, you'd notice that it isn't actually direct support for rioting and looting.

It's an acknowledgement that rioting and looting is not occurring in a vacuum.

That the rioting and looting has a cause.

The looting doesn't have a cause. It's just people using the protests as an excuse to steal stuff.

It's so easy to sit around and watch people's property burn. It wouldn't be the case if one of you guys got their stuff destroyed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeople...s_store_after/

I guess fuck this poor dude huh? Atleast he wasn't harmed. Imagine being in debt to the worlds worst fucking health care system.

[Elegiac]

The looting doesn't have a cause. It's just people using the protests as an excuse to steal stuff.

It's so easy to sit around and watch people's property burn. It wouldn't be the case if one of you guys got their stuff destroyed.

Prove it.

If it’s so apparent, prove it. Because I’m sure it wouldn’t totally contradict that little bit about healthcare you dropped in to make it seem like you give a shit.

But yeah, there is no way people might have a reason to loot in the middle of a pandemic with double digit unemployment. And looting certainly isn’t a political act in a crony capitalism system. /s

Sounds about white.

[Grapemask]

The looting doesn't have a cause. It's just people using the protests as an excuse to steal stuff.

It's so easy to sit around and watch people's property burn. It wouldn't be the case if one of you guys got their stuff destroyed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchPeople...s_store_after/

I guess fuck this poor dude huh? Atleast he wasn't harmed. Imagine being in debt to the worlds worst fucking health care system.

Fortunately, looting and rioting is not the majority of what's happening, and framing the movement based on its worst elements is silliness.

We should be thankful that this sort of bad faith didn't overtake the Civil Rights movement's message, because people were literally bombing buildings then. They would have been gassed at the Lincoln monument if they were allowed to march on Washington at all.

[Xilurm]

Prove it.

If it’s so apparent, prove it. Because I’m sure it wouldn’t totally contradict that little bit about healthcare you dropped in to make it seem like you give a shit.

But yeah, there is no way people might have a reason to loot in the middle of a pandemic with double digit unemployment. And looting certainly isn’t a political act in a crony capitalism system. /s

Sounds about white.

Maybe you haven't realized but this isn't the first time nor the only place in the world riots are and have happened. But of course, America is the protagonist of the world so no one gives a shit about any other country.

[-aiko-]

My protest yesterday was pretty uneventful, but I met a lot of really cool people, joined an awesome Facebook group, and got access to some dank memes.



The mayor and council of Provo/Orem (aka the Mormon capital of the world) released a statement. It isn't exactly an area known for mistreatment of blacks or corrupt police, but any support is always welcome to see, even if it's all fluff.

Provo leaders release statements on protests

“We are appreciative of our community’s ability to make an important statement without resorting to crime and violence. We hear your message,” the statement said.

The mayor and chief said they continually seek out opportunities to build and maintain the trust of the community.

“Our public safety professionals hold themselves to a higher standard,” the joint statement said. “When those standards are not upheld, we must, we can, and we will, do better. That is a promise to every citizen.”

[Xilurm]

Fortunately, looting and rioting is not the majority of what's happening, and framing the movement based on its worst elements is silliness.

We should be thankful that this sort of bad faith didn't overtake the Civil Rights movement's message, because people were literally bombing buildings then. They would have been gassed at the Lincoln monument if they were allowed to march on Washington at all.

I know it ain't. Doesn't stop it from being bad. And it also doesn't stop people condemning those who think its bad. I'm all for protesting, I've been to them myself. But I know that I wouldn't want my store/car/property destroyed, just like I know I wouldn't want to die at the hands of shitty cops, or that I wouldn't want to receive an unjustifiable beating during a peaceful protest because of random cops that failed college or dropped out of highschool and there isn't a system to stop brain dead morons from joining the police force.

See, the thing is both are bad.

[Themius]

I know it ain't. Doesn't stop it from being bad. And it also doesn't stop people condemning those who think its bad. I'm all for protesting, I've been to them myself. But I know that I wouldn't want my store/car/property destroyed, just like I know I wouldn't want to die at the hands of shitty cops, or that I wouldn't want to receive an unjustifiable beating during a peaceful protest because of random cops that failed college or dropped out of highschool and there isn't a system to stop brain dead morons from joining the police force.

See, the thing is both are bad.

mmhm, but some things are less bad or more important to focus on than scant looting.

[Benggaul]

Fucking petty, pointless bullshit.

Police destroying supplies of water for protestors.

Maybe if they don't want people to destroy property they should stop escalating.

[Edge-]

https://twitter.com/weslyinfinity/st...21172309544960

So cops are still targeting peaceful protests, violently removing them from the crowd, while assaulting the peaceful crowd with pepper spray and force.

But I wonder why there is so much anger and mistrust towards law enforcement, right?!

How long do you think that protester was locked in a holding bus/location, packed closely together with others who were picked up for no crime at all because the cops don't need to actually charge you or give you any rights after they detain you? How long before they're given bathroom breaks? Food? Will they get a phone call? (no) How about any masks for those that don't have them, since they won't be social distancing? (no)

Oh, so they're just going to treat them like animals and torment them? Cool, no anger or mistrust of the cops earned at all. Just a bunch of looters, apparently. /s

[Grapemask]

Fucking petty, pointless bullshit.

Police destroying supplies of water for protestors.

Maybe if they don't want people to destroy property they should stop escalating.

This is actually something like the fifth instance of this that I've seen. I don't even get it. Why destroy supplies?

[Edge-]

Fucking petty, pointless bullshit.

Police destroying supplies of water for protestors.

Maybe if they don't want people to destroy property they should stop escalating.

Man, you know what this reminds me of?

Scorched earth.

Holy shit, fuck all those officers. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DO NOT TRUST OR RESPECT POLICE AND WHY THEY VIEW THEM AS HOSTILE. And as others have said, this is far from the first time we've seen officers intentionally doing this when there aren't protesters around.

[tehealadin]

If you bothered to pay attention, you'd notice that it isn't actually direct support for rioting and looting.

It's an acknowledgement that rioting and looting is not occurring in a vacuum.

That the rioting and looting has a cause.

I think you are being too kind to certain posters. Many have made the points you have made, and I agree, it shouldn't take a riot to get the police to do what should have been done from the start, and I think some people have willfully missed that point. However there are certain characters in here who frankly enjoy this shit, the looting, that is the point of it, issues of racial justice are a side show, the same type of people you see on certain videos on the internet, who want chaos for chaos sake, the anarchist types. I have been careful in my posts in this thread not to conflate the two- protesters campaigning for justice and anarchists who just see this as an excuse to break and steal things. When people steal from black people in order to fight systemic racism, when people wreck black neighborhoods to get justice for victims of police brutality, there are either a lot of idiots out there, or there are a number of people out there playing a different game and using this murder as an excuse. I suspect a bit of both. And please don't try to gaslight me with the "its in your mind, those people aren't real" bullshit, the sooner that people on the left realise what bad actors those people are, and how they turn movements toxic, the better.

And no, I am not claiming this represents the majority- I have been so heartened by videos of protesters stopping extremists from trying to escalate things, that video with the black protester telling the anarchist types to please leave, Jon Jones taking the spray paint off of those idiots and tweeting that they need to go home, when they do this it is no longer about what it should be, in the past I fear that the anarchist/so called anti fascist types have managed to influence the direction of legitimate movements far too much, but it seems on this one that people are getting wise to them and saying no. People need to get on the street and make sure this isn't ignored any longer, I fully support this, seeing people of all colours and backgrounds marching as one and saying "enough is enough" is a thing that I genuinely like to see. However it is getting tiring when bad actors insert themselves into things, and then conflate criticism of their actions with criticism of the protest movement. If you can't see that certain characters are playing this game then I don't know what to say.

I have avoided talking about the attacks on police stations because frankly I don't know how to feel about that one. One one hand an effective police force is important, if people can burn police stations with impunity then it is a bad sign for a society, as well as a symbol that your own personal safety might now be at risk. On the other hand, as you have said, they brought this on themselves, they weren't an effective force for justice but agents of injustice, and even if you disagree with attacks on stations, at least it is targeted at a group that is such a huge part of the problem, it is a far cry from some of the mindless violence and looting we see elsewhere. And some of the action that the police have taken with protesters has just made things worse. I feel conflicted on it. I don't like to see it, but I see where it is coming from, and it isn't from a place of mindless hate and chaos, but a genuine cry for justice. I think if I am being honest, I would reluctantly concede that this form of action is sometimes necessary.

Because frankly, that shit's a way bigger issue than the riots and looting. The demand that protests all be "peaceful" is inherently an argument that people should accept the status quo.

I think that is bordering on potential bullshit. And something the anarchist types have been using as a way to deflect criticism of their actions. "Hey man, don't tell me I can't loot your store or burn your car, that means you support the status quo, bro!, nothing will change if I don't get this new iPhone". Btw I am not suggesting that you are one of those types. Protests won't always be peaceful, but there is a difference between mindless destruction of property and theft (I repeat this, many black people are having their shit broken and stolen) from civilians, and targeted action against institutions that are actively involved in the injustice, the ones that need to be the ones to reform and enact meaningful change.

You at least acknowledge that there is a distinction between these two forms of non peaceful protest and one is clearly far worse than the other. However asking people to not loot shops, or loot homes, especially not black ones, isn't a demand for the status quo to remain in place. Sadly this is the argument that has been made in various forms by people throughout this thread and elsewhere on the internet, someone condemns a black shop owner getting attacked and robbed and people defend it with "the status quo bro, we need violence for change!", conveniently tying the two forms of non peaceful protest together, using the one that has some form of justification to shield the one that doesn't, and to be honest I am not if this is the argument you are making or not, that is why I said bordering on potential bullshit, given your post history I can't be sure if you are trying to cover for looters (the rest of your post hints that this is a no, but your history usually is to side with these types regardless of what they do, I am not saying this as a dig, you see things the way you see it, but I am genuinely confused) or if it is a defense for targeted action against police and institutions and excludes the mindless looting.

The injection of bad actors have made things more complicated than is desirable. You have far left anarchists who want to just destroy everything using this as a cover along with apologists for them who think "well, they are kind of on my team so I best defend them anyway", and you also have people on the right who are like "them damn blacks, they need to chill out, now get in here sister and suck my dick" and who use the actions of the looters to tarnish the protest movement as a whole because they don't see what the big deal is/agree that the cops should be able to act like this. Lets be honest, this causes confusion, it isn't always clear where people land on this.