Taking the pulse of the community

[Daymanmb]

DBM in retail is a shit show, if you dont take the time to customize it properly, which isnt exactly worth the effort. Its completely optional and its annoying to no end.

[crakerjack]

Idk why you tried sticking up for the paladin. That's where you issue arises. Should have just minded your own business and you'd have had a chance at getting the mount.

[Mysterymask]

In this thread someone finds out for the first time that PUGs suck and is flabbergasted that people do indeed...suck

[Aphrel]

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable (and there were a lot of other problems on top of that). Because I said that, the leader instantly kicked me as well - apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon.

Sounds like you and your paladin friend should get dbm or bigwigs.
Missing the pulltimer and readychecks alone is more than enough reason to get them.

[Ophenia]

Rule number one of PUGs, don't say a word unless you're essential to the group (doing twice the DPS of everyone else combined or being a tank or the main healer).

Anything you say puts you at risk of being kicked, even as a joke, and even more if you're barely "one DPS among others", who can be replaced in the blink of an eye.

[Lei]

Apparently, you completely miss the point. LOL Good thing I am still on-line so I can explain and educate. A leader sets the tone, regardless of how simple or basic things may be. The point is - if you want players with DBM in your raid, find out if they've got it before you let them in the group. And if they don't have it, it's your choice if you invite them or help them out. It's better than waiting until the middle of the raid to find out people aren't prepared.

I think I was right on point.

The OP put the leader into an impossible position, setting themselves and the leader up to failure. Maybe the leader was fine with people not having dbm, or not specifically and actively checking for it, as long as the run goes smoothly. Anyways how do you check dbm for people not in your group/raid? Or pinkyswear style?

[arkanon]

Rule number one of PUGs, don't say a word unless you're essential to the group (doing twice the DPS of everyone else combined or being a tank or the main healer).

Anything you say puts you at risk of being kicked, even as a joke, and even more if you're barely "one DPS among others", who can be replaced in the blink of an eye.

I like you......i said this earlier and i firmly believe it is accurate:


You know the best advice for pugging?

- Meet or exceed the groups requirements
- STFU
- Ensure you follow instructions
- STFU
- Regardless of what strat the RL wants to use on a boss, follow their instruction
- STFU
- If the RL asks for suggestions due to issues on a boss, now is your time to put forward your suggestion.
- Do NOT comment about other members of the raid: "this person sucks, kick this person, you have too many healers, let me tank" < NO.

[Derpules]

Imagine not using a boss mod in 2020...

I'm still a dirty clicker, so I guess it's possible. Stranger things have happened in 2020 thus far...

[T-34]

A pull timer that is also visible in raid chat.

Are you for real or just a troll?
You are the toxic person here. You wasted 19 other people's time with a wipe in a pug and got kicked. And rightfully so.
Either behave like it is expected in pugs or make your own group with your own "special" and "pure" rules.

[KainneAbsolute]

I raided all normal and heroic in Legion using pugs and well, and well I had to tolerate the rules. People kick you for any reasons.

Kicking the guy for being frozen seems extreme for me. However, put yourself on the other side. You got kicked for no having the basic addons. On the other hand is there is a wipe a second or third time, it is common the a lot of healers or even tanks will quit the group and then they will have to invest time building the raid again. Many times I experienced pugs were 80% leave the raid after a second wipe.

LFG raids are hell for everyone when things go bad.

[Devilyaki]

This is just the normal. Though I did find it funny someone said DBM is just a min install and that’s it. More like a min up date every day cause of another updated because a blade of grass moved in India or whatever lol

[Kanegasi]

to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer

apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon. I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD

I'm thoroughly confused by these two parts. If you weren't using DBM or BigWigs, what kind of pull timer are you talking about? You can't state there's no pull timer when you don't even have it installed. No, someone counting down in chat is not a pull timer.

I would tell you to forget this encounter and install DBM or BigWigs like a normal player, but Blizzard is adding a pull timer to the default UI in Shadowlands. Until then, I suggest you stay out of any major group content if you're not going to use a boss addon.

[Tesshin83]

Generally, from what I'm usually seeing, people in pug runs of just about anything are there to get things quickly done and move on to whatever else they have on their itinerary, which results in leads being dicks with zero patience for anyone who's not perfectly following mechanics. This is even worse if said dicks are awful at the game themselves and decided to lead a pug run so that they can get carried to the reward.



People are bothered by this stance because installing DBM is literally 1 minute of work, give or take, and you're set with everything you need. Blizzard practically designs the game around this addon because everyone else is using it anyway, so vocally proclaiming "I'm not going to do it just because everyone else does!" is, at this point, spite, as well as shooting yourself in the foot and making your own life harder to prove a point.

Wrong. DBM is not necessary. All rhe encounters these days are designed with voice emotes to the most important abilities. Its actually like there is a voicepack bossmod in the game by default.

[Ezyah]

You can be replaced within 10 sec so arguing with you takes more time than finding replacement and it sends a warning to the others. Period.

[T-34]

You sound like a fascist.

But he is right. There are so many people looking for Jaina pugs. So either be good or be kicked. Everybody is replaceable.

And also OP wasted a lot of time for 19 other people because he wanted to be a pure "I-don't-sully-my-pc-with-DBM-snowflake".
Everybody has the right to be shit at the game and everybody has the right not to play with shitters.

It is a two-way street.

[Zephire]

That's probably what I will do, though I was trying not to abuse my friends since they are helping me enough already and they already have this mount. I'll try to start a pug on my own next week and see how it goes... I have good experience with Rastakhan because I stood through multiple wipes with a group and got the encounter pegged, can explain it, but I don't think I can do that with Tinker if people don't want to skip him. I'll have to watch the guide some more. I think it was also a mistake to be impatient and join a group right after reset... maybe the a-holes will be done before the weekend.

With the frozen pally, I don't know, maybe he should have been paying attention, but I would have given him another shot for sure, I don't know if he knew the encounter or not... Even if people fail at something, it's still better to let them get an idea, otherwise they'll just join someone else's group next week and wipe them too (and some of them will inevitably waste your time too). I don't really know if the guy kicked me because I didn't have DBM or because I questioned his decision... I'm inclined to think it was the latter, or 50-50 at best. There are a few encounters where it pays to be prepared for a phase, but it's not really the case with Mythic Jaina - even if you can argue you need that, people still need to stack up most of the time, so they'll know where to go anyway, and DBM has little bearing on the personal mechanics you need to execute.

I would not have kicked the paladin on 1-3 tries but I also expect those who join to speak up if anything is unclear. I hate it when I ask if everyone understood just to see that they clearly didn't. Then I ask why and after a while they explain that they didn't understand, in decent enough english. It makes me very sad that people are AFRAID to ask because of reasons like the paladin getting booted right away.

I tank without dbm in easier content sometimes with the guild just to make it more.....exciting. Having two tanks without DBM is honestly bloody funny. But i wouldnt do that in higher difficulty or a pug environment, just because it puts unnecessary strain on myself and everyone else. Fucking up the taunts so bad the boss goes taunt immune can cause some pretty funny moments when chilling out with friends, but its far less funny when its a pug just trying to get the content done asap.

Tanking without DBM is glorious. If feels great to nail a timer based on some random thing that just happen to happen some sec before. Like in Antorus, on Coven of Shivarra where you as a tank get a nasty debuff. If I recall correctly, when you had 13 sec left on your current debuff you could should use a mitigation because the next instant cast of that debuff would happen right after. In Atal'Dazar on Vol'kaal know that after every third jump he'll start his cast, one does not need DBM to be able to interrupt instantly, one just count the jumps.

When done correctly, if feels real good

[Dommie530]

People demanding you using stuff without advocating it in the looking for group tab is just odd. You should play the game the way you want it, unless the party/raid requires you to use certain addons and you accept that then i personnaly dont think you are in the wrong completly, but you could ofc do more to be the most valueble member u could be.

[MoanaLisa]

Stories about getting kicked from pug groups are frequent and anecdotal. They really aren't worth much in the way of discussion. Some groups are have assholes in them, some don't. Some experiences are fine, others are not. If you play with strangers you get what you get.

WoW doesn't have a community in that sense. It's random people who come together under expectations that punish anything left than perfection. It's weird and in one sense about as anti-social as it can be. It's also unpleasant and I haven't missed anything by avoiding it entirely.

Raiding would be an even worse experience without DBM. In contrast to that it would probably be much more interesting and eventually raise the competence of many players.

[Talrath]

Your not in the wrong, it's just how things work now. In the past (before the finding group system) people genuinely knew about the fights even if you did the previous content. Kicks weren't done a lot since you had to find new people again and you had to let people wait again. Nowadays it's that finding new people is really easy, so the lead can kick without any repurcussions. Even if he is at fault. The DBM thing is not necessarily needed, it's just handy and that's it. The tacs aren't that hard and a lot of times I just turn it off because it just makes too much annoying noises. I wonder how many people wouldn't clear fights if there was no dbm.

[Dracullus]

That's why I think WoW should have some in-game "raid/dungeon helper" (optional of course), same with damage/healing meters. In general if addon is "mandatory", it should be in game.

As for topic, it's never 1 person to blame. Pug leader is like "party for 20 people, bow tie mandatory" - but he doesn't write this, since everyone and their mothers was using bow ties last 12 years in this community. Then comes OP without bow tie and say that "bow tie are pointless and he can't afford single bow tie".

Maybe you're right, but you know what? It's his party, only 20 people fits in room and there is waiting line outside ready for your place. Not only that, you can even make your own party, for free, any time!

So coming here and complaining about whole "party community" makes you bigger asshole (in my eyes) than PUG leader who require addon that may be not so important in Mythic Jaina farm 15 months after launch.