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  1. #81
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airlick View Post
    Jaina is a Mary Sue? I don't think you understand what it means. Losing the kingdom she grew up in, watching her BF go Lich King, running to the other side of the world only to watch as her father got killed, only to watch the same people whom she let kill her father blow up the city she worked for years to build and so on... Yeah, textbook Mary Sue, everything ever goes her way.
    - Going from being expelled from her kingdom to queen and forgiven in 3ish quests, is not losing it.
    - Assuming control of Dalaran, committing genocide, with no repercussions, calling it justified, while no one in the world, agrees with her.
    - Invading one, NO TWO, Horde cities, and live to tell the tale.
    - Claiming to be neutral for over a decade of WoW, while openly supporting Alliance.
    - Being horribly beating en Dazar'alor, yet can escape by ice blocking.

    You really cannot see it?
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Going from being expelled from her kingdom to queen and forgiven in 3ish quests, is not losing it.
    We are forgetting that she was literally send to hell, yes? But I agree that she should not have betrayed Kul'tiras, let her dad wipe out the Horde. We would have saved ourselves so much trouble and so many nonesensical arguments made by the Horde apologist crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Assuming control of Dalaran, committing genocide, with no repercussions, calling it justified, while no one in the world, agrees with her.
    I could start the usual debate that the few elves that died there ("But it was a bloody afair!!!") do not qualify as genocide, but I will not. It is pointless to duscuss these things with Horde players that just want to drag the Alliance characters to the level of their own mass murderers to feel better about their own faction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Invading one, NO TWO, Horde cities, and live to tell the tale.
    She is a friggin powerful mage. Why would she not be able to do that? How many cities and outposts have our characters invaded?

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Claiming to be neutral for over a decade of WoW, while openly supporting Alliance.
    What blithering nonsense. She WAS neutral. Garrosh changed her mind because he was a psychopath that needed to be stopped. You might have noticed that most of the Horde agreed soon after Theramore.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Being horribly beating en Dazar'alor, yet can escape by ice blocking.

    You really cannot see it?
    Again, every mage can Iceblock, every mage can Teleport, why would she as one of strongest mages in the world not be able to do that?

    None of these deeds or powers are anywhere above what she should have been able to do. You just can't accept that the Alliance has a good character on it's side.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    not going to defend sylvanas or pretend she is not villain, but Baine and Saurfang at the begining did not betray her, they betrayed horde...
    1. Saurfang instead of standing up to her run away and pouted - to be fair this might not be betrayal, but surely its not "pro-horde" action...
    2. Baine instead of standing up to her as a RACIAL LEADER (so one of most influental people in horde) went behind her back, and killed loyal horde soldiers to release enemy... sure, what she planed for Derek was not a good thing, still killing your allies to set enemy free in a war is a treason, however you spin it...
    Well no, I don't agree at all that it's "treason, however you spin it".

    The Horde had lost its way again and Baine and Saurfang were the ones that started the movement to course correct it. They didn't do it because they wanted to hurt the Horde, they did it because they wanted to save the Horde, and that was ultimately what they achieved. Sylvanas was playing 405-d chess to get everyone killed and if it hadn't been for them and their coalition with the Alliance, then the rest of the Horde would have just blindly followed along with it.

    Sylvanas may have considered them traitors, but they didn't ever betray the Horde. The Horde is supposed to be more than just the will of the of Warchief, no matter how much people like to flaunt the oath that members of the Horde take.

    EDIT:

    Unrelated note:

    Jaina is a mary-sue in the same way that all the characters in WoW are mary-sues. Their power scales dramatically up or down depending on what's going on in the story, the availability of magical macguffins, and whatever flashy story idea Blizzard is trying to pull off. There's hardly ever any lengthy amount of character development in a single expansion and people do things and are granted things because "reasons".

    It's the same reason why Nathanos was able to hold off Malfurion and Tyrande even though he struggled to take on Genn at Stormheim. It's the same reason why Thrall was able to contain the Maelstrom and learned how to handle the Dragon Soul to Kamehameha Deathwing but then had a midlife crisis and was crawling around in the sand in Legion. Tirion was able to defy Arthas and shatter Frostmourne but got unceremoniously slimed by some random Burning Legion guy. Sylvanas has had her extra lives, chess skills, and now her super duper Jailer powers etc...etc...

    If you guys wanna fight about power levels and who's the worst offender then go ahead, but I doubt that you'll get anywhere or convince anyone that you're right.
    Last edited by Rexosaurus; 2020-06-04 at 07:19 PM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    Well no, I don't agree at all that it's "treason, however you spin it".

    The Horde had lost its way again and Baine and Saurfang were the ones that started the movement to course correct it.
    so killing allied soldiers that did NOTHING but guard the prisoner is fine, if the command to guard prisoner came from someone who did bad things... okay, interesting...

    yeah they started the course to correct horde, so instead of sylvanas plotting and backstabbing they stood up to her openly as highly prominent members of the horde they were! ... oh wait, no, they plotted and backstabbed... interesting way to "correcting" someones actions by doing the same just on smaller scale...

    what Cairne did was brave and honorable, he challenged Garrosh knowing it will most likely get him killed, but it was right thing to do, THAT was the way of Thralls horde...
    Baine and saurfang first get allong with killing, then pouted and then plotted and get behind Sylvanas back without challenging her at all... thats just treachery and cowardice, and frankly thats how Sylvanas run the horde...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-06-04 at 08:07 PM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so killing allied soldiers that did NOTHING but guard the prisoner is fine, if the command to guard prisoner came from someone who did bad things... okay, interesting...

    yeah they started the course to correct horde, so instead of sylvanas plotting and backstabbing they stood up to her openly as highly prominent members of the horde they were! ... oh wait, no, they plotted and backstabbed... interesting way to "correcting" someones actions by doing the same just on smaller scale...

    what Cairne did was brave and honorable, he challenged Garrosh knowing it will most likely get him killed, but it was right thing to do, THAT was the way of Thralls horde...
    Baine and saurfang first get allong with killing, then pouted and then plotted and get behind Sylvanas back without challenging her at all... thats just treachery and cowardice, and frankly thats how Sylvanas run the horde...
    Yeah I'd say that's okay that they had to kill some guards. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions and "I was ordered to do it" only goes so far with most people.

    On the topic of Cairne, yeah he was awesome for standing up to Garrosh early on and thrashing him until foul play took him out. That said, it accomplished very little in the end. He died and Garrosh ran amok while the rest of the Horde was dragged through the mud for a couple of expansions. Sometimes doing the right thing immediately isn't the smartest or most effective way to course correct.

    If Saurfang and Baine had challenged Sylvanas immediately then I would have more respected them earlier in the story, but that doesn't mean that they would have been successful. They wouldn't have had much support at that time because the war was so fresh, so if one or both of them had died right away, then the rebellion may never have been able to overthrow Sylvanas. Then the Horde would still be under her regime.

    So then which one is considered right or more honorable? Retaining your personal honor but letting the faction lose their way and fall into chaos? Or sacrificing some personal honor so that you can save the whole group later? It's kind of like the whole Ned Stark situation in GoT/ASoIaF. Super cool dude, and I respected the character's integrity, but if he'd been better at playing the game then a lot of death may have been avoided, including his own family's.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    Yeah I'd say that's okay that they had to kill some guards. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions and "I was ordered to do it" only goes so far with most people.
    yes, but their action was just guarding a prisoner, nothing wrong with that, was killing them REALLY not bad? i strongly disagree...

    and sry, but no, at the time of releasing Derek Baine would have a lot of support, so who knows how it would end... but that doesnt even matter, i dont challenge the fact his goal was fair, but that doesnt change the fact that he betrayed horde...
    think about that Ilidan scenario from Legion, where he killed his fellow magisters to defeat leagion - was his goal good? yes, did he betray them? also yes, those two things are not mutualy exclusive, and he (and Baine too) could go a much better way to his goal...

    but mostly im pissed about the hipocrisy of some people, in battle for lordaeron Sylva used the blight and killed some horde soldiers, bcs they were slow to fall back, and people were angry she killed horde soldiers to achieve her goal, and then Baine kills horde soldiers, not bcs he have no more time but bcs they stand in his way, and he is a hero... somehow its literally the same, killing your own troops to achieve goal, yet somehow when one does it its atrocity and when other does it its right thing to do... why? and before the "end justify means" Sylvanases goal at the time was to win the battle and save more soldiers so...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    So then which one is considered right or more honorable? Retaining your personal honor but letting the faction lose their way and fall into chaos?
    if your goal is to "correct" the path back to honorable way then doing so by abandoning your honor is WORST and STUPIDEST way of doing so...
    its like stopping corrupt politician by becoming a crimelord and having him killed - does it stop him? yes, but at the same time it shows when given the power you will be no better than him...

  7. #87
    Maybe she blows up another alliance leader. I can miss this one.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yes, but their action was just guarding a prisoner, nothing wrong with that, was killing them REALLY not bad? i strongly disagree...
    Agree to disagree I guess? In this situation I personally wouldn't accept "I was told by another to do X" as a legitimate excuse for blindly following someone that has proven themselves to be unscrupulous.

    and sry, but no, at the time of releasing Derek Baine would have a lot of support, so who knows how it would end... but that doesnt even matter, i dont challenge the fact his goal was fair, but that doesnt change the fact that he betrayed horde...
    think about that Ilidan scenario from Legion, where he killed his fellow magisters to defeat leagion - was his goal good? yes, did he betray them? also yes, those two things are not mutualy exclusive, and he (and Baine too) could go a much better way to his goal...
    They definitely had more support by that time, but that's all just kind of conjecture as to whether or not there would have been enough. He apparently thought it was more important to free Derek, who was basically a giant slap in the face to the whole idea of the original Forsaken, than to risk an all or nothing fight with Sylvanas. Based on the cutscene that played at the end of that questline, he clearly believed that he was doing what was best for Azeroth and for the Horde.

    Illidan =/= Baine. As with most things in life, the circumstances of one situation are greatly different from another's. Baine is a respected (in-game) and even-tempered character that felt that he was forced to fight guards that were complicit in aiding in Sylvanas' actions. Illidan was brash, often arrogant, and sought power and recognition; he was draining power from soldiers that were actively aiding him in order to defeat the Legion. The only similarity there is that they killed characters that belonged to the same larger organization as them.

    That said, did Illidan betray the Moon Guard? I'd say yes. Did he betray the Night Elves/Kaldorei? I'd say no. Did Baine betray Sylvanas? I would say technically, yes. Did he betray the Horde? I'd say no.

    but mostly im pissed about the hipocrisy of some people, in battle for lordaeron Sylva used the blight and killed some horde soldiers, bcs they were slow to fall back, and people were angry she killed horde soldiers to achieve her goal, and then Baine kills horde soldiers, not bcs he have no more time but bcs they stand in his way, and he is a hero... somehow its literally the same, killing your own troops to achieve goal, yet somehow when one does it its atrocity and when other does it its right thing to do... why? and before the "end justify means" Sylvanases goal at the time was to win the battle and save more soldiers so...
    Well first off I feel like I'm one of the very few people that kind of defends Baine's actions on the Horde side. When the patch came out I remember a flood of "BAINE IS A TRAITOR, WHY CAN'T I KILL HIM!?" He isn't very well liked even among the people that wanted Sylvanas gone.

    Putting that aside though, I think you're boiling things down to extremely base components. Gassing troops that are actively fighting for you with deadly chemical agents because "ain't nobody got time for that" isn't really the same as the Baine scenario. We know by the end of Battle for Lordaeron that Sylvanas' end goal wasn't to save soldiers and win the battle, it was to inflict damage and she had the Undercity rigged to blow from the start. That was the final straw that spurred on Saurfang in the first place. Compare that to killing a handful of guards that are working for the person corrupting your organization. Those are very different goals and reasons for killing "friendlies".

    if your goal is to "correct" the path back to honorable way then doing so by abandoning your honor is WORST and STUPIDEST way of doing so...
    its like stopping corrupt politician by becoming a crimelord and having him killed - does it stop him? yes, but at the same time it shows when given the power you will be no better than him...
    Again I'd say that the context/situation are very important here. Undertaking some covert operations to right a wrong which eventually helps incite a rebellion that seeks to overthrow a morally bankrupt tyrant that doesn't care for their people =/= being a crime lord and putting a hit on a corrupt politician. If you boil them down to extremely base components again then sure they share some similarities, but realistically there's a world of difference between those two things.

    Personally, I'm not gonna go any further into the debate regarding what is considered "honorable". That concept is extremely nebulous even on the best of days.
    Last edited by Rexosaurus; 2020-06-05 at 07:58 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    Well first off I feel like I'm one of the very few people that kind of defends Baine's actions on the Horde side. When the patch came out I remember a flood of "BAINE IS A TRAITOR, WHY CAN'T I KILL HIM!?" He isn't very well liked even among the people that wanted Sylvanas gone.
    That might have something to do with the fact that he IS a traitor by every definition of the word. He is a traitor and a piss poor leader of his own people. Cairne has to be turning in his grave, not that i expect the current writing team to even know who that is.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    You should maybe try talking to people outside your tiny bubble of friends. If anyone in this game is a Mary-Sue, its Golden's boy-toy Anduin.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And based on your reply, you quite *obviously* don't understand Mary-Sues. oof.
    It's very interesting when people are disingenuous and try to make up responses to points and statements that were never made. I never once said my friends, my friends don't care for the story in wow and most of them don't care for the game in general. I said most players. Be it in game, on the discord server, reddit, or forums like this, I find that many people share that opinion of Sylvanus, and just because people feel that way about her, doesn't mean they like Anduin.
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  11. #91
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Lets only hope she dies in a similar way...would be sweet to have Tyrande finish it off!

    Death to the obvious from the start, evil bitch!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Well received VILLAIN yes. But never loved.

    Sylvanas is not a Mary Sue, since nothing ever goes her way.

    Anduin and Jaina, on the other hand, are text book Mary Sues.
    By your own definition for Sylvanas, that means neither of them can be that either...since things don't go their way.

  12. #92
    Oh shush will you? Haters...
    She is our one and only Queen Mistress

    She deserves a shot at redemption and she shall get it!

  13. #93
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    - Going from being expelled from her kingdom to queen and forgiven in 3ish quests, is not losing it.
    - Assuming control of Dalaran, committing genocide, with no repercussions, calling it justified, while no one in the world, agrees with her.
    - Invading one, NO TWO, Horde cities, and live to tell the tale.
    - Claiming to be neutral for over a decade of WoW, while openly supporting Alliance.
    - Being horribly beating en Dazar'alor, yet can escape by ice blocking.

    You really cannot see it?
    It was more than 3 quests and she isn't queen...
    Was hardly genocide
    Invading Horde cities she could have probably destroyed but didn't after her own city was nuked
    She was right not to trust the Horde now, wasn't she?
    You mean like a certain someone who blasted off again multiple times?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    Naaa, having a plot armor with planet size thickness is not Mary Sue

    Or storming Icecrown ALONE, beating the shit out of Lich King like he's a pupy, not taking a single hit

    Getting random powerups out of depths of Danuser ass (like he read too much manga and watched way too many anime shows)

    Every "failure" is going according her grand plan that shifts every god damn single time (how many times were we showed her final plans already?) and in the end, she just twirls her eyebrows and says "hahaaaa, it all went according my grand plan"


    And the most obvious of all, everyone just stands in place like an idiot while she's going on with her idiotic monologue....

    Some random ass Stormwing rifleman should just shoot her in the head in the middle of the sentence and spare us of the cringeworthy character she is
    Hey.

    Can we not drag anime and manga by associating them with Sylvanas style upgrades strictly because the author finds her hot?
    Seriously most anime protagonists are at least given a sensible reason for their upgrades before or at the reveal of said upgrade. It's not "And now they're god tier", it's "And now they're god tier because _______"
    One day I look forward to seeing full grown adults realize that their averse reactions to levity and positive/contemplative expressions of emotion are a cry for therapy.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so killing allied soldiers that did NOTHING but guard the prisoner is fine, if the command to guard prisoner came from someone who did bad things... okay, interesting...

    yeah they started the course to correct horde, so instead of sylvanas plotting and backstabbing they stood up to her openly as highly prominent members of the horde they were! ... oh wait, no, they plotted and backstabbed... interesting way to "correcting" someones actions by doing the same just on smaller scale...

    what Cairne did was brave and honorable, he challenged Garrosh knowing it will most likely get him killed, but it was right thing to do, THAT was the way of Thralls horde...
    Baine and saurfang first get allong with killing, then pouted and then plotted and get behind Sylvanas back without challenging her at all... thats just treachery and cowardice, and frankly thats how Sylvanas run the horde...
    Dude... Backstabbing, treachery and duplicity are a-ok if they are used in Alliance's favour. You should know this by now... As someone said in these boards once, !@£& is bad only if Horde does it.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Warlords of Draenor for Guldan was BFA for Sylvanas, we foil their plains, again and again, while they continue to smirk and play their 4D chess games, they both fuck off at the end to summon their true masters through a giant portal to kickstart the new expansion and she will die in the first big patch raid like Guldan.

    Sylvanas will find the soul of Arthas and will try to make him an avatar for the Jailer to invade Azeroth directly, at the end she will scream NO, THIS CANNOT BE! while Arthas appears behind her and sticks Frostmourne in her vagina and she explodes. Then he will turn around and say that we have seen what he has seen and to follow him into the abyss.


    Edit: Another similarity, both at the end of WOD and BFA after Guldan and Sylvanas leave their respective Horde factions, both factions start screaming about freedom and honor alongside the people they wanted to genocide 2 days before.

    It's like poetry it rhymes.
    I'm still suspecting Sylvanas is going to be a massive hero, and there is more behind the whole Jailor dynamic thing, she is going to pull another Tyrande, who freed Illidan (considered a monster at the time) to defeat a much bigger evil.. I suspect the void in this case.

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