Vanilla / TBC / Wrath, Best Raid Ever?

[Ragnarohk]

Tbc wins only because trial of the crusader was the worst raid pathc in the history of the game

It was "bad" because it was implemented as a main raid, and felt too short. However, the patch itself was really good (tournament, the 5 man, dailies) and the raid music is one of the best they've done so far. I really enjoyed TotGC, but I can see why many people don't. And I still believe there are "worse" raids i.e. Highmaul and most Classic raids

[Pacem Aeternam]

Ulduar is literally the best raid ever, i'd only vote WOTLK for that.

[Zarator8]

Vanilla, even with it's incredibly buggy raid releases is still superior to me over WoTLK. Why? Naxxaramas was way too easy and ToGC was probably one of the worst raid concepts they ever toyed with.

You know, I'll never understand how people can claim this while trying to defend Vanilla.

Naxx 10/25 was "way too easy"? Then what about Molten Core, Onyxia, Zul'Gurub?

ToGC was "probably one of the worst raid concepts they ever toyed with"? Then what about Molten Core? It's arguably nothing but a hastily crafted mess of random trash mobs and loot pinata bosses. If you asked me to choose between doing MC and ToGC, I'd choose ToGC any time of the week. Heck, it'd take some real rose-tinted glasses or bias to actually claim ICC was a worse raid than literally anything we've got in Vanilla except maybe Naxxramas.

Don't get me wrong, I do think ToGC is a bad raid, I do agree Naxx 10/25 was too easy. But compared to Vanilla they're still better tuned and more enjoyable to play. Most of the Vanilla content before at LEAST Ahn'qiraji is a mechanically-boring walk in the park no matter the patch you play it in.

[Orby]

TBC, no brainer. Although Ulduar and ICC were all-time greats IMO.

^this

TBC for the same reason. Uldaur is one of my favourites raids of all time but I still gotta say TBC for the sake that this was my guilds peak and my peak on enjoying my time with the guild that I am still with to this day, despite the guild dying around WoD.

I loved TBC raiding, we cleared everything but Sunwell, and despite us being quite a serious hardcore guild we had fun and had a laugh. I remember so many good moments talking with guild over ventrio, all the guildmates that are no longer around. I remeber out guild master yelling at us like mad during certain bosses.

The Eye, Serpentshrine Cavern, Gruul, Zul'Aman, Mount Hyjal and Black Temple I can tell you hundreds of stories from any one of those raids good or bad that still make me look back fondly.

the enjoyments of those raids were carried over from the enjoyment of my guild. Those raids wouldn't be half as fun without them.

The only reason I didn't vote WotLK was because towards the end of the expansion I was burning out and my enjoyment was dying. The first two halfs of WoTLK were on par with TBC but that later half really is the decider.

[crakerjack]

I thoroughly enjoyed every raid in TBC/Wotlk, even ToGC/ToC. But yea, my favorite expansion in Wotlk was Ulduar, hands down. ICC was good too, but 11-12 months of it will exhaust almost anyone. I think why ulduar was soo appreciated was because it was genuinely a fantastic raid all around. Cool lore, amazing art/music, interesting boss fights that only became more interesting when you engaged hard mode. What helps ulduars reputation is that we weren't stuck with it for months on end like other expansions. Patch 3.1 (ulduar) was released on April 14th, 2009 and patch 3.2 (ToC/ToGC) was released August 4th, 2009. That's less than 4 months between raids. I believe ToC/ToGC didn't release right off the bat or bosses were gated each week, but overall, we're talking 4-5 months.

[Tojara]

You know, I'll never understand how people can claim this while trying to defend Vanilla.

Naxx 10/25 was "way too easy"? Then what about Molten Core, Onyxia, Zul'Gurub?

ToGC was "probably one of the worst raid concepts they ever toyed with"? Then what about Molten Core? It's arguably nothing but a hastily crafted mess of random trash mobs and loot pinata bosses. If you asked me to choose between doing MC and ToGC, I'd choose ToGC any time of the week. Heck, it'd take some real rose-tinted glasses or bias to actually claim ICC was a worse raid than literally anything we've got in Vanilla except maybe Naxxramas.

Don't get me wrong, I do think ToGC is a bad raid, I do agree Naxx 10/25 was too easy. But compared to Vanilla they're still better tuned and more enjoyable to play. Most of the Vanilla content before at LEAST Ahn'qiraji is a mechanically-boring walk in the park no matter the patch you play it in.

I'm not defending classic, I'm defending vanilla. For it's time period vanilla was 'hard' because it's all people knew.

[Itori]

I would have voted tbc but i remembered the only fun one being kara, i had way more fun in ulduar, icc, naxx, and even the little wintergrasp mini raid.

[Xalvia]

It was "bad" because it was implemented as a main raid, and felt too short. However, the patch itself was really good (tournament, the 5 man, dailies) and the raid music is one of the best they've done so far. I really enjoyed TotGC, but I can see why many people don't. And I still believe there are "worse" raids i.e. Highmaul and most Classic raids

Honstly, TotGC was a great raid, the bosses were fun. The rewards and catch up loot were way to strong though, invalidating everything that came before. 10 man normal mode dropped better gear than 25 man ulduar and the tier set was super easy to get (very strong bonuses too). I remember, most guilds only ran the different versions of Totc and the few that went back to Ulduar only went for mace parts / achievments. Alts / new players just skipped Ulduar / Naxx / Sanctum / Malygos all together.

[enigma77]

Wrath had both the best and the worst raids.

Ulduar & Icc were great, the rest was mediocre or trash (Naxx rehash /spit).

[Bigbazz]

Trial of the Crusader is the best raid... No fucking trash and great fights... Alright maybe not the best raid, but the boss fights were awesome and it was nice to have a raid with no trash.

[hynx]

Ulduar simply for the fact that they had optional side things to do to make the raid easier/harder for your party's skill/gear level. the introduction to different difficulties for the same raid came with Ulduar. It was a game changer for raiding. that alone is why it should shine bright as one of the greatest. but it was a great raid overall. but if we talking full expansion and the raid fun overall? then TBC by far. the most hated i think is trial of the crusader, though. especailly with the faux pvp fight.

[Zarator8]

I'm not defending classic, I'm defending vanilla. For it's time period vanilla was 'hard' because it's all people knew.

So basically Vanilla was good because we didn't know any better?

[Tojara]

So basically Vanilla was good because we didn't know any better?

No?

My opinions are based on the time period in which the game was launched in. Vanilla was retarded easy when you look back because we lived in an age where information wasn't plentiful. Where does it state that I think Vanilla is difficult by today's standards, or even amazing by today's standards? I'm sorry you love WoTLK, but for me it was disaster for raiding content. If I was comparing 2004 Vanilla to 2008 WoTLK, of course WoTLK is a better 'overall' product, but that's because the game had 4 years of progress.

For it's time Vanilla raiding was good and progressively got more difficult from tier to tier adding mechanics and evolving the raiding scene. Regardless of how you feel, raiding had a sense of progression through Vanilla until the end of TBC, with WoTLK flipping it completely upside down. Please go ahead and name a time in this games history, where an expansions launch content was slurped up by the masses almost immediately upon hitting max level? Oh wait, you can't, and that's why I take issue with WoTLK raiding as a whole. Naxxaramas was a raid we had seen before with pathetic tuning. It doesn't matter that it's a better raid than Molten Core, because even Molten Core in it's prime actually had a semblance of 'difficulty' despite being fundamentally easy by today's standard.

Where's the confusion? I'm comparing Vanillas raiding to 2004 standards, and WoTLK to 2008 standards. I don't see how that's hard to grasp. This isn't me sucking Vanilla WoWs dick, this is me shitting on WoTLK because entry level raid content sucked and ToGC sucked. I hate Molten Core and obviously Vanilla raid content doesn't hold a candle to the evolution that raid content has taken over the last 15 years. Despite all that, I had more fun and enjoyed raiding in Vanilla than I did in WoTLK. Maybe some people feel good about effortlessly walking in with raiding gear from the previous expansion and slaughtering Naxx 10/25 the first week their guild had enough, but I didn't. Five and half months of that was boring.

Entry level dungeon and raid content in WoTLK was a complete joke, void of any real difficulty sans 3D Sartharion. The second fault of WoTLK was allowing Ulduar to become obsolete quicker than it had to so that we could enjoy another brilliant raiding tier in WoTLK in ToGC.

Don't confuse my statements with current classic WoW. I know full well how easy raiding content is when everything is known and player's as a whole have potentially a decade plus of experience raiding throughout other expansions.

[Zarator8]

I'm sorry you love WoTLK, but for me it was disaster for raiding content.

It's not that I "love" WotLK - I far prefer TBC to WotLK. But even WotLK would be vastly preferable to Vanilla.

For it's time Vanilla raiding was good and progressively got more difficult from tier to tier adding mechanics and evolving the raiding scene. Regardless of how you feel, raiding had a sense of progression through Vanilla until the end of TBC, with WoTLK flipping it completely upside down. Please go ahead and name a time in this games history, where an expansions launch content was slurped up by the masses almost immediately upon hitting max level? Oh wait, you can't, and that's why I take issue with WoTLK raiding as a whole. Naxxaramas was a raid we had seen before with pathetic tuning. It doesn't matter that it's a better raid than Molten Core, because even Molten Core in it's prime actually had a semblance of 'difficulty' despite being fundamentally easy by today's standard.

Where's the confusion? I'm comparing Vanillas raiding to 2004 standards, and WoTLK to 2008 standards. I don't see how that's hard to grasp. This isn't me sucking Vanilla WoWs dick, this is me shitting on WoTLK because entry level raid content sucked and ToGC sucked. I hate Molten Core and obviously Vanilla raid content doesn't hold a candle to the evolution that raid content has taken over the last 15 years. Despite all that, I had more fun and enjoyed raiding in Vanilla than I did in WoTLK. Maybe some people feel good about effortlessly walking in with raiding gear from the previous expansion and slaughtering Naxx 10/25 the first week their guild had enough, but I didn't. Five and half months of that was boring.

That's where I fundamentally disagree, or at least find your whole endeavor silly. Why should we care, in 2020, about whether the 2004 or the 2008 experience were better? What I do care about, in a Classic perspective, is which of the two games holds up better to 2020 standards. And for me the answer is unquestionably WotLK (though again I also believe that TBC is better than WotLK, even in 2020).

Don't confuse my statements with current classic WoW. I know full well how easy raiding content is when everything is known and player's as a whole have potentially a decade plus of experience raiding throughout other expansions.

And that's what I believe is what the majority of people care about, ultimately. 2004-08 have come and gone. What we're left with are the game as we were, and the playerbase as it is. And as things are, Vanilla is simply untenable. In fact, it makes me laugh how some ppl still delude themselves into thinking that it'd be a good idea to have raids like Molten Core still be relevant in a hypothetical Classic+. Who in their right mind would WANT Molten Core to still be relevant?

[Tavin]

Most people are gonna say TBC cause that was the real hype of wow and when a lot of ppl got into raiding seriously.

But let's be real. Looking back on the TBC raids they were fucking awful. I liked them for personal reasons. But when it comes to layout, mechanics, beginner friendly etc they are trash tier.

People need to learn the difference between "best" and "favorite" when making these threads/posts.

MOP was definitely my favorite expansion, raid wise, so far

[Brostin]

I vote TBC, aside from anything else the raids were all above average with the exception of Hyjal.

I'm surprised Ulduar is as well regarded as it is, I don't think it was a bad raid and it had some good boss fights, especially with the hard modes. However, it also had bad sections like the vehicle section right at the start, a lot of the lore across the entire zone is "borrowed" from old lore and the maiden and male counterpart models look pretty bad, but are used heavily in the raid.

It was also back when itemisation was weird , I remember having pretty much BIS From T7 and looking at the Ulduar drops thinking a lot of these are either not upgrades or are extremely minor ones if at all. Not something I find at all motivating when a new tier comes out.

Wrath has quite a few bad raids, aside from ICC and Ulduar I don't think it would be harsh to say they phoned it in a bit. It was nice to see Naxx but there was very little effort put into it.

I'd also crown Wrath with starting all the shitty behaviour in both 5 man and PUG raids. Gearscore checks for VOA anyone? The community had already started acting like massive dicks in these environments well before the Cata prepatch even launched. Yet everyone blames Cata for everything lol.

Most people are gonna say TBC cause that was the real hype of wow and when a lot of ppl got into raiding seriously.

But let's be real. Looking back on the TBC raids they were fucking awful. I liked them for personal reasons. But when it comes to layout, mechanics, beginner friendly etc they are trash tier.

People need to learn the difference between "best" and "favorite" when making these threads/posts.

MOP was definitely my favorite expansion, raid wise, so far

People, namely you need to learn to read threads so you aren't talking about an expansion that isn't part of the discussion, as denoted by you know the subject of the thread?

[crusadernero]

WotlK, even overall. Ulduar was fantastic. The fights, the zone itself, the lore tied to it, the atmosphere in it. Was so great.

Yeah ToC wasnt THAT good and naxx was rather easy. But for me it was awesome. It was the xpac I had most fun with a guild and we cleared pretty much everything and had a great time.

Wotlk was also the final story arc of Arthas as Lich King, and as a avid Warcraft player that was something special. Played the RTS games so much and it was one peak moment in my wow gameplay to see him go down.

[Nestoras]

I didn't get to raid during Vanilla, was late to the party, just before TBC goes live.
During TBC I raided for years Karazhan, Gruul, Zul Aman and Mag. So not the full flavor there either.
Wrath I did everything, so I had the most fun during its duration (with the exception of the first couple of months doing Kharazan) but that doesn't mean that Wrath had the best raids.

[ZazuuPriest]

i love Kara but lets face it Ulduar is singlehandedly better than any other raid in all of these 3 expansions combined

[exsanguinate]

A very unpopular opinion, but ICC was by far the worst raid ever. Boring bosses, boring architecture, the same colors everywhere. Just badly done.

TBC had by far the best raids.