Unpopular opinion: 10 man raids should make a return in Shadowlands.

[Elias01]

They could make a ten man mythic that is balanced well but it would have to be a raid that is only a 10 man. They can't recycle 10 and 20 man content with the same rooms and mechanics it just doesn't work.

This would add another 15 imtelvl bloat into alredy insane powrecreeep. So no.

[ddsad2212]

Honestly i'd like to see them try a 10 man only mythic raid as a test if nothing else. You can't make a raid have a 10 and 20 man mode and hope it'll be balanced but if you specifically design around 10 man I think they could make a great raid. Only two real 10 man only raids release in this game and one is widely regard as among the best raids ever , the other is also really fondly remembered as well

[Mardux]

People claimed the quality of the raids back then was bad, but how are they better now?

Was highmaul good? Emerald nightmare? Tomb of sargas? Argus? Nyalotha, let me tel you, no they werent. So if they make bad raids with terrible game mechanics which was the sole purpose of removing 10 man, why not bring them back if they cant make quality raids anyway, atleast people have choose then.

Played since 2007, so well yup

So your source you use use as evidence for your opinion (which you think is fact) is yourself? Nah. Not good enough.

[Trend]

Honestly i'd like to see them try a 10 man only mythic raid as a test if nothing else. You can't make a raid have a 10 and 20 man mode and hope it'll be balanced but if you specifically design around 10 man I think they could make a great raid. Only two real 10 man only raids release in this game and one is widely regard as among the best raids ever , the other is also really fondly remembered as well

It's not about whether or not they could, it is about what makes the most sense. The current design team has an opinion I share: 10-man has always and will always feel more like a big dungeon group than an epic raid team, which it is supposed to be. With 10-man you're even more likely to min/max class/spec decisions because you can less afford the impact of a "bad" choice.

Everyone has their own opinion and that's cool, but only the design team's opinion really counts. And they've already stated why there isn't 10-man mythic raiding.

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People claimed the quality of the raids back then was bad, but how are they better now?

Was highmaul good? Emerald nightmare? Tomb of sargas? Argus? Nyalotha, let me tel you, no they werent. So if they make bad raids with terrible game mechanics which was the sole purpose of removing 10 man, why not bring them back if they cant make quality raids anyway, atleast people have choose then.

Played since 2007, so well yup

Cool, you have an opinion (that you confuse as fact), good for you. I disagree.

Played since mid-2004, so ok then. Guess my opinion is more valuable?

[Dommie530]

It's not about whether or not they could, it is about what makes the most sense. The current design team has an opinion I share: 10-man has always and will always feel more like a big dungeon group than an epic raid team, which it is supposed to be. With 10-man you're even more likely to min/max class/spec decisions because you can less afford the impact of a "bad" choice.

Everyone has their own opinion and that's cool, but only the design team's opinion really counts. And they've already stated why there isn't 10-man mythic raiding.

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Cool, you have an opinion (that you confuse as fact), good for you. I disagree.

Played since mid-2004, so ok then. Guess my opinion is more valuable?

So you deem Highmaul, Emerald Nightmare, Trial of Valor, Argus, Nyalotha, Tomb of sargeras as good raids? Thats cool, People also like poor quality, thats fine to.

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So your source you use use as evidence for your opinion (which you think is fact) is yourself? Nah. Not good enough.

So you deem Highmaul, Emerald Nightmare, Trial of Valor, Argus, Nyalotha, Tomb of sargeras as good raids? Thats cool, People also like poor quality, thats fine to.
Which source is good enough? Blizzard? Like they said they wouldn't make classic, yet changed their minds later on? Made garrisons, and instead building upon it, flat out doing nothing to it? abandoning complete projects?
Or you want evidence by numbers? Well, their were far more raiders and clears when 10 man was thing? What source would be good enough?
I'm simply advocating for an addition, not removing anything, whats the harm in that?
It's hillarious how people claim raids were bad back when there were 2 difficulties, yet their were outcries on many of the raids that were only 20/25 man after 10 man was removed that sucked, but that's nothing people can accept.

[kaminaris]

It's not about whether or not they could, it is about what makes the most sense. The current design team has an opinion I share: 10-man has always and will always feel more like a big dungeon group than an epic raid team, which it is supposed to be. With 10-man you're even more likely to min/max class/spec decisions because you can less afford the impact of a "bad" choice.

Everyone has their own opinion and that's cool, but only the design team's opinion really counts. And they've already stated why there isn't 10-man mythic raiding.

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Cool, you have an opinion (that you confuse as fact), good for you. I disagree.

Played since mid-2004, so ok then. Guess my opinion is more valuable?

What a load of bollocks. It doesn't make "most sense". Most sense would make it flexible.
https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

The reason all world firsts are done in 25-man is, again, because it's the optimal solution to the problem. If a guild could gain a competitive advantage in the race for a world first by doing 10s, they'd all be doing it

With 20 man class stacking is a real problem, with 10 man you can't afford to be picky as ultimately you need certain classes.

[Demeia]

So, changing raid sizes from 25m to 10m was a demographic nightmare: basically fifteen players suddenly didn't have a raid anymore. Guess what, they didn't go and form their own raid; the people who do that were usually the ones in the 10m raids. So instead they left the game.

Blizzard would be stupid to do this.

[kaminaris]

So, changing raid sizes from 25m to 10m was a demographic nightmare: basically fifteen players suddenly didn't have a raid anymore. Guess what, they didn't go and form their own raid; the people who do that were usually the ones in the 10m raids. So instead they left the game.

Blizzard would be stupid to do this.

It didn't work like this. There were guild that exclusively did 10man which were not interested in 25 man groups because of various reasons. Logistics and being a small cog in big group was one of them.

I'm willing to bet 5 crates of whisky that if blizzard did mythic flex or 10+20 man raids it would get at least 50% more attention.

[Popastique]

10 people already exists in form of casual heroic/normal raiding. If they bring mythic 10ppl back - balancing issues will happen again, when some bosses in 25 are far easier than in 10, and vice-versa. And what about Hall of Fame? What about loot?
Therefore bringing it back in its original state will only cause problems.

[Tojara]

I don't really consider the 'quality' of raiding content much higher in the Cataclysm/MoP era, compared to WoD/Legion/BFA. I'd argue that it might have gotten consistently a little bit better, but realistically, it's not like MoP raiding is massively inferior to anything after it. Opinions are opinions though, I guess.

There are very few bosses in WoD/Legion/BFA that couldn't be made to a 10 man fixed Mythic format. Saying otherwise means you lack imagination. Would some bosses be easier on 10 compared to 25? Yeah, but this happened before too. People claiming that 10 man was universally easier in Cata/MoP over it's 25 man counterpart are pretty bias and/or disingenuous at best. Popular to contrary belief, they balanced it pretty well outside of the cluster fuck which was launch Cataclysm, where over half of the available raid encounters were virtually impossible on 10 man because they clearly didn't think enough when designing them on 10 man.

Nobody is saying it would be easy and that's one of the reasons they got rid of it to begin with. It's a completely true statement that it takes more work to balance two raid sizes rewarding the same items in a fixed format. The question however is whether it would be worth it or not. Like I said, if you don't think they couldn't transform at least 90% of the bosses from WoD onwards to 10 man Mythic and make it competitive with it's 20 man Mythic counterpart, you lack imagination.

Realistically who cares about rewards? Hall of fame was made to entice more people to play Alliance to critical failure, and you don't really need to raid in order to get decent loot if you're decent at M+. It worked before, and the larger raid sizes got rewarded with more overall loot. In this current environment people you would just raid with whatever size is the most convenient for you, which would be 10 man for a lot of people.

[Erous]

I really liked the concept of 10 man and 20 man raids. When the split came and 40 mans were broke down to 25, I think that ended an opportunity. 40 man raid teams could've just split their raids in 2 for 20 man content, but 25 meant 5 of those raiders were out or benched. Would've preferred a 20 setup with 10 dungeon-type raids in place.

[nocturnus]

I don't really consider the 'quality' of raiding content much higher in the Cataclysm/MoP era, compared to WoD/Legion/BFA. I'd argue that it might have gotten consistently a little bit better, but realistically, it's not like MoP raiding is massively inferior to anything after it. Opinions are opinions though, I guess.

There are very few bosses in WoD/Legion/BFA that couldn't be made to a 10 man fixed Mythic format. Saying otherwise means you lack imagination. Would some bosses be easier on 10 compared to 25? Yeah, but this happened before too. People claiming that 10 man was universally easier in Cata/MoP over it's 25 man counterpart are pretty bias and/or disingenuous at best. Popular to contrary belief, they balanced it pretty well outside of the cluster fuck with was launch Cataclysm, where over half of the available raid encounters were virtually impossible on 10 man because they clearly didn't think enough when designing them on 10 man.

Nobody is saying it would be easy and that's one of the reasons they got rid of it to begin with. It's a completely true statement that it takes more work to balance two raid sizes rewarding the same items in a fixed format. The question however is whether it would be worth it or not. Like I said, if you don't think they couldn't transform at least 90% of the bosses from WoD onwards to 10 man Mythic and make it competitive with it's 20 man Mythic counterpart, you lack imagination.

And you know what? Let's say that 10 mythic was a bit easier - it wasn't, but let's just say it was.

SO WHAT?

What does it even matter?

[Tojara]

And you know what? Let's say that 10 mythic was a bit easier - it wasn't, but let's just say it was.

SO WHAT?

What does it even matter?

That's my point too. Who really cares? So some bosses on 10 man are easier or harder in one tier compared to 25 man? The only people who care are forum purists who need to know with 100% certainty what's truly the hardest boss on each difficulty.

God the forums were a mess years ago with people debating what was more difficult.

Realistically I wouldn't care as long as the balance is somewhat close. The only time it felt really bad was the launch of Cataclysm, but I'll give them a break considering it was their first try at it.

[nocturnus]

God the forums were a mess years ago with people debating what was more difficult.

Yeah well, if your only achievement in life is how well you did against scripted content in a video game, things like this are of utmost import.

[Advent]

Yeah well, if your only achievement in life is how well you did against scripted content in a video game, things like this are of utmost import.

Obligatory "PvP is better than PvE yo" for $500, Alex.

[hulkgor]

20-man allows for better balance and encounter design and i'll always consider it the better choice.

That said, there's something special about 10-man raids and close-knit groups doing them.

People seem to forget we started at 40.... then 25... then 20... we'll eventually go down to lower sizes anyway.

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Let's say that 10 mythic

There never was 10 man mythic