Taking the pulse of the community

[Saltysquidoon]

Explain to me how what I said would be any different in a guild? The same type of BS that gets you kicked from a PUG will get you kicked from a guild.

When you get invited to someone else's raid, you keep your mouth shut, and you do not ever question their decisions.

The underlined.

I've raided off and on with the same guild (essentially) since cata and I've never seen anyone kicked for what they type in raid chat or said in VoIP (other than joke kicks from the channel). Nor would I play with the guild if I did.
Often on prog you have people making suggestions about tweaks to strats, people swapping roles in the fight, people taking turns on mechanics/burning for a parse, saying that the ranged group wasn't moving fast enough or w/e.

Any guild afraid of honest good faith criticism is no guild anyone should be playing with.

[rrayy]

Having to deal with guildmates that tried to use not installing mandatory addons or their computer not being capable of raiding as a reason for wiping the rest of the raid is a headache I'm glad to be done with. If its entirely within your control, and noone else's, the rest of the raid shouldn't be punished for it, and its absolutely not an excuse.

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Or you could just stop whining and spend 30 seconds to enable something that's been around for a decade now.

It takes just as long to enable colorblind mode, and the game is largely unplayable to a larger percentage of people but they only have themselves to blame if they don't enable it.

Not even remotely comprable. He can play the game just fine without DBM. Some people cannot play the game at all without turning that function on if they are color blind. DBM is not needed to play the game successfully.

[Coconut]

Just swooping by to describe the events a little better, since some people are making up their own narratives and running with them like headless chicken.

- Prior to the pull, the leader explained phase two - in broad terms, but well enough - and established when we were supposed to bloodlust. No plan for phase one except for saying that they expected everyone to be stacked for transition at the end of it.
- Pull was done via DBM, with no warning otherwise. I DID NOT miss the pull, because I was paying attention to the game like I always do. Saw the tank going, was ready before we entered combat.
- Within the first two seconds, most ranged and healers reluctantly headed for the boss with the melee players. This was not decided previously unless you count the "be stacked before transition remark". Now, I'm not sure if this is a tactic people with cutting edge gear use, nuking her fast enough that they can ignore the mechanics, but in the other encounters I've been and in the guide there were always two groups, one for melee one for ranged. I followed regardless, because there weren't going to be enough players close to me. The tank kept Jaina pretty much on spawn point.
- As I was approaching the boss, I had my eyes on a boomkin who was lagging behind alone (he did make it without being frozen), and I noticed a paladin frozen at the starting point. I started attacking the block to unfreeze him, and I was the only one doing this.
- Within a second or two, the paladin typed "free me" in raid chat, confirming he wasn't afk. I continued destroying the block alone and he eventually joined the group.
- Because of the positioning and lack of assignments/plan, nobody went for the ballistas (including myself, but I was really not sure if I could make it). The area around the boss quickly filled up with fire patches, to the point that one or two people got kicked off board. This was less than a minute into the fight, and the boss was nowhere near transition. Leader called for a wipe and we all jumped into the water.

Leader then kicked 2 or 3 players, including the paladin, complaining he had "done next to nothing during the fight". Well, duh, between being frozen, me freeing him alone while avoiding other ppl's avalanches, and running to the boss, he must have missed at least 25 seconds in a ~50 seconds fight, and at the end I don't know how much he could have done because there was a sea of fire patches surrounding Jaina. So I decided to stand up for him him, and had the following exchange:

Me: In his defense, he got frozen right at the start and nobody was freeing him.
Leader: Still on him.
Me: That's true, but there was no pull timer, so that's a mitigating circumstance.
Other player: There was a pull timer.

*You have been removed from the group*

That's it. I wasn't disrespectful, I didn't put myself on a high horse - I didn't personally fail the mechanics, or perform any worse than the raid as a whole, like some people are suggesting - and I certainly didn't start a debate about the worthiness of DBM with the leader like the one I engaged in here. It was merely a suggestion that he might have kicked me because I outed myself for not using it, but for all he knew it could have been turned off, a mere reload away, or I could have even failed to notice there was a timer because I had my speakers on low or whatever other reason. Maybe he assumed I also missed the pull, though that would be dumb, since I would have been frozen then. He didn't deign to explain anything to me, or to say "sorry, I don't trust you in the group".

As for the people suggesting I should make this "a learning experience" and "just use DBM", this is ridiculous! I've been playing WoW for 15 years, I played with DBM and without DBM for extended periods of time, I know what advantages it brings, and I know how little I need it. I know what the end results need to be regardless, and I find my own ways of achieving them. And it's not like I wasn't using it to make a stand against the Glorious PUG Leader, I simply stopped using it for so long it no longer registered to me that it was a thing. I don't even know for sure that's why I got kicked, so no, I won't install it just to maaaaybe feel worthy for a random pugger, when I otherwise don't use it and other pugs didn't complain. If it didn't slow my framerate maybe I would, but as it it's just not worth it.

Another ridiculous thing is the argument that "the leader must kick people so that good players don't leave". It was a mythic boss. Anyone leaving would screw themselves out of a kill for the week, they would only fuck themselves over by leaving. Even assuming they joined at Jaina, it's still better to endure a few wipes than to look for another group; you don't find Jaina-only groups that often. Clearly this argument is made from a position of blinding ignorance. Of course, I'm not saying that "good players" should be kept hostage until everyone learns the encounter, that would be equally stupid, but a couple mistakes/wipes should be fine and there is no huge pressure on the leader to "OMG show he's changing something after every wipe!".

And that's all I have to say for now. I don't want to get caught up in the same polemics over and over again, and I don't have time atm to discuss with everyone, so it's better not to start, but I do follow the thread and mull over what everyone is saying.

[tmamass]

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable

not using dbm core at least für the pull timer would have made me kicked you too. if you cant use at least the minimum you shouldnt be in mythic mount run group....

[Gaidax]

As for the people suggesting I should make this "a learning experience" and "just use DBM", this is ridiculous! I've been playing WoW for 15 years, I played with DBM and without DBM for extended periods of time, I know what advantages it brings, and I know how little I need it. I know what the end results need to be regardless, and I find my own ways of achieving them.

Well, what's stopping you to find your own way of achieving Jaina's mount then? Make your own raid, invite whoever you want and set rules you want.

Leading a PuG is a stressful thing and every 3rd moron thinks he's some sort of a diva that totally is above such petty things like installing that one single addon raid leader expects him/her to have, even if it's just for a pull timer. Mythic Jaina still requires a bit of effort for a PuG and it's no place for a bunch of randoms who can't even bloody join the fight on pull because they went asleep as DBM timer was going off, like said Paladin.

If the guy can't even do that, how can anyone expect him to be of any use P2/3 when mechanics are much stricter.

Yes, you painted a big target on yourself when you opened your mouth, but frankly - you were not in the right there and I can totally understand raid leader not wishing to deal with the kindergarten. It's really easy to replace people when mount is literally in front of you and after clearing the whole thing to this point, I am sure his patience was wearing thin already.

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not using dbm core at least für the pull timer would have made me kicked you too. if you cant use at least the minimum you shouldnt be in mythic mount run group....

Also this.

For the life of me I can't understand this shit. Your computer can't handle one single addon? Come on... Just swallow your shitty pride and put excuses aside for a moment and install the thing - it's barely any overhead there, it's not going to plummet your FPS.

[Seranthor]

.

You aren't and haven't been looking for a 'pulse', you've been looking for an echo chamber and people to tell you that you weren't wrong. You were dead wrong. It really is as simple as it wasn't your group, you dont get to make the rules. If you want to make the rules, start your own group. Continuing to whine and cry and handwave away people pointing out what you did wrong about getting booted only serves to solidify that you didn't belong in that group.

[Great Destiny Man]

Me: In his defense, he got frozen right at the start and nobody was freeing him.
Leader: Still on him.
Me: That's true, but there was no pull timer, so that's a mitigating circumstance.
Other player: There was a pull timer.

*You have been removed from the group*

It's pretty contrarian and even worse you're calling out things that aren't factually correct (even if it was a pull timer you couldn't see, there was a pull timer). Would I kick someone based purely off that? Probably not but I'd certainly be irritated with the person.

As for the people suggesting I should make this "a learning experience" and "just use DBM", this is ridiculous! I've been playing WoW for 15 years, I played with DBM and without DBM for extended periods of time, I know what advantages it brings, and I know how little I need it. I know what the end results need to be regardless, and I find my own ways of achieving them. And it's not like I wasn't using it to make a stand against the Glorious PUG Leader, I simply stopped using it for so long it no longer registered to me that it was a thing. I don't even know for sure that's why I got kicked, so no, I won't install it just to maaaaybe feel worthy for a random pugger, when I otherwise don't use it and other pugs didn't complain. If it didn't slow my framerate maybe I would, but as it it's just not worth it.

You didn't even get past phase 1. Making the judgement call that DBM wouldn't have been of any use to you would be more credible had you seen the fight in its entirety.

And you're right, DBM might not have been the reason. Maybe the RL was reviewing and purged everyone who didn't have prior achievement (which may or may not have been a condition of getting in). Regardless of RL's own mistakes/lack of awareness it's quite clear it was a shitshow and wanted to do something about it. Could he have given people more chances? Sure, but he's not obligated to. None of this is direct evidence of RL trying to be a dick, just eager to get it done without wasting too much of his day.

Another ridiculous thing is the argument that "the leader must kick people so that good players don't leave". It was a mythic boss. Anyone leaving would screw themselves out of a kill for the week, they would only fuck themselves over by leaving. Even assuming they joined at Jaina, it's still better to endure a few wipes than to look for another group; you don't find Jaina-only groups that often. Clearly this argument is made from a position of blinding ignorance. Of course, I'm not saying that "good players" should be kept hostage until everyone learns the encounter, that would be equally stupid, but a couple mistakes/wipes should be fine and there is no huge pressure on the leader to "OMG show he's changing something after every wipe!".

When you're wiping on basic stuff of phase 1 that's not a good sign for group competency. Yes experienced/high performing players will leave if they feel it's a lost cause, doesn't matter that they're saved to the ID. All they'll do is just make sure they don't group with that RL again and vet the leader of future groups more thoroughly. So yes it does contribute to the decision making.

[WinningOne]

So, I had a very unpleasant experience in game about an hour ago.

I've been primarily a casual player and a mount collector for a long time, but I managed to gear up to 470ish with the help of my high end friends, and I just recently started doing Mythic Jaina runs for the 2x chance at the water elemental.

This week I joined a group mid way, and on the first pull a party member got himself instantly frozen. I was the only one trying to unfreeze him as everyone was clumping on top of the boss instead of having the usual melee/ranged groups (neither strategy was assigned at the start, people simply decided to stand in melee and the ones who were left had to follow). Due to the clumping, the middle of the ship quickly filled up with bombs, and people were freezing themselves left and right, so we wiped in the first phase. Lots of things going wrong there.

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable (and there were a lot of other problems on top of that). Because I said that, the leader instantly kicked me as well - apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon. I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD, and I could play at an acceptable level without it (including mage tower in Legion). To be fair, I had completely forgotten it existed. Certainly it wouldn't have been a problem at Jaina, since the biggest challenge was following the marked tank, and the broadsides have visual cues in the standard UI.

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous. Maybe it affected me more than it would others because I don't usually descend in the septic tank that is pugging difficult content (or multi-player difficult content in general), so I want to know what other posters think. Is this normal behavior? Do you think the party leader was in the right? Or is this part of the cancer that is making wow fail as a social game? (I should probably mention that I was in no way disrespectful or pushy when defending the frozen party member, I merely pointed something out in a factual way - it was a very low bar for "questioning his decision").

I'd consider your experience tame but I also think it's okay to be bothered by it. Some of the features in WoW offer authority to people who have no business holding any. It's a perfect primer on why power corrupts and also the mental gymnastics people are willing to go through just to avoid feeling guilty for belittling or dehumanizing others. Unfortunately, there are rarely consequences for such behavior in video games and so Pug'ing content will require you to just accept this is how people are.

Just to provide some solidarity I'll share the tamest experience I can think of right now. I don't remember the name of the boss anymore but the encounter had a mechanic which required 4 players to run orbs down a hallway so the rest of the raid could kill him. I was once in a PuG in which I was the only player running these orbs. I repeatedly called for other people to help run the orbs but people refused. The raid fully turned over three times as people rage quite over wipe after wipe all the while absolutely refusing to accept that the orbs had to be transferred. Eventually, I stuck around just because I realized I was witnessing something which should have been statistically impossible. 75 people were more willing rage accusations at one another than take 2 minutes to read through the adventure guide. Seriously, it's a cesspool.

[Swnem]

Leading raids is a very stressful role. It gets annoying and time wasting when there's people questioning everything you do.
So, i would say it depends on how you raised your point. It may be that they were just short on patience and overdid it. But, these things can happen in pugs.

[Coconut]

You aren't and haven't been looking for a 'pulse', you've been looking for an echo chamber and people to tell you that you weren't wrong. You were dead wrong. It really is as simple as it wasn't your group, you dont get to make the rules. If you want to make the rules, start your own group. Continuing to whine and cry and handwave away people pointing out what you did wrong about getting booted only serves to solidify that you didn't belong in that group.

I am exactly looking for a pulse. In my eyes, it is 100% wrong to act in the manner that the party leader did. It was an exaggerated measure to kick the paladin, and an even more exaggerated measure to kick me. People wail about DBM being the "minimum necessary", but nobody gave a concrete reason as to why it matters on Jaina - missing the pull is immaterial, as one could still miss the pull with DBM, or pay attention and not miss it without it, like I did. One can also make the pull timer visible for people without DBM. But regardless of all that, it is still wrong to cast a more malevolent gaze on someone for a benign comment, and completely wrong to not at least apologize and give a reason for "preemptively" kicking someone, to show that you at least empathize with their frustration for losing the weekly lockout.

People who agree with the leader unequivocally, or even brag how they would have done the same, shows me how far the cancer and putrefaction has spread. It tells me how high my chances are to encounter similar behavior in other pugs, so I can decide whether to keep joining them or to ask some friends and make my own groups. For the most part, the thread has reasserted the notion that you should only play solo or with friends, because you are not a human being to the randoms, you are less than a tool. You are right on one thing though. I did not belong in that group, and it was my mistake for getting into it. Like I said before, joining a group on the first day of the reset was too eager and too greedy, I'll own up to that. That doesn't make the leader any less despicable in my eyes.

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You didn't even get past phase 1. Making the judgement call that DBM wouldn't have been of any use to you would be more credible had you seen the fight in its entirety.

And you're right, DBM might not have been the reason. Maybe the RL was reviewing and purged everyone who didn't have prior achievement (which may or may not have been a condition of getting in). Regardless of RL's own mistakes/lack of awareness it's quite clear it was a shitshow and wanted to do something about it. Could he have given people more chances? Sure, but he's not obligated to. None of this is direct evidence of RL trying to be a dick, just eager to get it done without wasting too much of his day.

I did kill Jaina before (without DBM, in other pugs without my geared friends, survived til the end). The achievement was a requirement for getting in the group, so the paladin must have had it too.

[Great Destiny Man]

I am exactly looking for a pulse. In my eyes, it is 100% wrong to act in the manner that the party leader did. It was an exaggerated measure to kick the paladin, and an even more exaggerated measure to kick me. People wail about DBM being the "minimum necessary", but nobody gave a concrete reason as to why it matters on Jaina - missing the pull is immaterial, as one could still miss the pull with DBM, or pay attention and not miss it without it, like I did. One can also make the pull timer visible for people without DBM. But regardless of all that, it is still wrong to cast a more malevolent gaze on someone for a benign comment, and completely wrong to not at least apologize and give a reason for "preemptively" kicking someone, to show that you at least empathize with their frustration for losing the weekly lockout.

People who agree with the leader unequivocally, or even brag how they would have done the same, shows me how far the cancer and putrefaction has spread. It tells me how high my chances are to encounter similar behavior in other pugs, so I can decide whether to keep joining them or to ask some friends and make my own groups. For the most part, the thread has reasserted the notion that you should only play solo or with friends, because you are not a human being to the randoms, you are less than a tool. You are right on one thing though. I did not belong in that group, and it was my mistake for getting into it. Like I said before, joining a group on the first day of the reset was too eager and too greedy, I'll own up to that. That doesn't make the leader any less despicable in my eyes.

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I did kill Jaina before (without DBM, survived til the end), the achievement was a requirement for getting in the group.

But in your mind you've already demonised him and no-one can tell you otherwise. There's literally nothing to discuss here because you're not willing to even entertain the thought of an opposing view point.

So yes as Seranthor says you're just looking for an echo chamber.

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I did kill Jaina before (without DBM, in other pugs without my geared friends, survived til the end). The achievement was a requirement for getting in the group, so the paladin must have had it too.

Fair enough on having a prior kill at least then. Still he might've done a date checked and made some kind of assumption you were boosted then (regardless of whether you view that as accurate). In any case my point is more so there are a multitude of reasons why he thought it was more prudent to not have you there. No-one says you have to agree with it, but not all decisions are made with the intention of being a dick.

[Coconut]

But in your mind you've already demonised him and no-one call tell you otherwise. There's literally nothing to discuss here because you're not willing to even entertain the thought of an opposing view point.

So yes as Seranthor says you're just looking for an echo chamber.

I prefer the words you used earlier, emotional validation - which is a very human thing to seek. It would be nice (was, to some extent) to know that some people are still empathetic and willing to look at things from the perspective of another for a change, whether it is me or the paladin. For sure not an echo chamber, because I would never expect everyone to agree with me.

Believe it or not, my mind is not entirely made up about the utility of DBM on Jaina. Maybe I just got lucky before and there is a specific ability where it's really helpful. If so, I could partially empathize with the leader and feel less angry towards him. So far nobody made any good arguments in that direction, though.

[Seranthor]

I am exactly looking for a pulse. In my eyes, it is 100% wrong to act in the manner that the party leader did. It was an exaggerated measure to kick the paladin, and an even more exaggerated measure to kick me. People wail about DBM being the "minimum necessary", but nobody gave a concrete reason as to why it matters on Jaina - missing the pull is immaterial, as one could still miss the pull with DBM, or pay attention and not miss it without it, like I did. One can also make the pull timer visible for people without DBM. But regardless of all that, it is still wrong to cast a more malevolent gaze on someone for a benign comment, and completely wrong to not at least apologize and give a reason for "preemptively" kicking someone, to show that you at least empathize with their frustration for losing the weekly lockout.

People who agree with the leader unequivocally, or even brag how they would have done the same, shows me how far the cancer and putrefaction has spread. It tells me how high my chances are to encounter similar behavior in other pugs, so I can decide whether to keep joining them or to ask some friends and make my own groups. For the most part, the thread has reasserted the notion that you should only play solo or with friends, because you are not a human being to the randoms, you are less than a tool. You are right on one thing though. I did not belong in that group, and it was my mistake for getting into it. Like I said before, joining a group on the first day of the reset was too eager and too greedy, I'll own up to that. That doesn't make the leader any less despicable in my eyes.

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I did kill Jaina before (without DBM, in other pugs without my geared friends, survived til the end). The achievement was a requirement for getting in the group, so the paladin must have had it too.

I dont care if you were the RL of Method, if you cant be bothered to even to do the simplest things to assist the group in succeeding then you have zero business being there. Now go back and read that again. You had no business being in that group if you were going to hold them back and its pretty clear that you did.

It wasn't your group, you were invited, you can be uninvited just as quickly. And with your craptastic attitude I can clearly see why you were uninvited. If you want to make the rules and lead, then get it done. YOU were the problem in that group, not the RL. I dont care how much handwaving and excusing you do. YOU were the cancer in that group.

Until you actually grasp the concept that you dont get to make the rules if it isn't your group, then you probably should avoid trying to join any other group, you'll rightfully get booted.

You got everything you deserved, and you in no way deserve neither an explanation, nor an apology.

[Coconut]

You had no business being in that group if you were going to hold them back and its pretty clear that you did.

YOU were the cancer in that group.

How exactly did I hold them back? Geez!

[Zantera]

To me it sounds like a 50/50. I expect people to have DBM because it's been a standard thing for over 15 years and anyone who does raiding even on normal or heroic level (so way before mythic) should be familiar with it and use it. So if there is some confusion on the end that someone didn't see a DBM pull but I know I made one then I would definitely think that person is in the wrong for not having it.

However with that said I think kicking people over such trivial things and being a dick is taking it one step too far. Especially something like mythic Jaina where you lose a few minutes perhaps but you can just reload and go again. There's no m+ timer or anything that gets screwed up. Unfortunately it's something that's becoming more and more common in the game (and other games). Something that should be a fun hobby is being treated so seriously by some people that when other people make a mistake, they feel the need to blow up on them. Yeah I'll get behind the "if you are doing content X come prepared for it" but I will never get people who have such a short fuse, to me that kinda brings me back to being 12-13 years old when you would just start calling people X and Y over nothing.

[Great Destiny Man]

I prefer the words you used earlier, emotional validation - which is a very human thing to seek. It would be nice (was, to some extent) to know that some people are still empathetic and willing to look at things from the perspective of another for a change, whether it is me or the paladin. For sure not an echo chamber, because I would never expect everyone to agree with me.

Believe it or not, my mind is not entirely made up about the utility of DBM on Jaina. Maybe I just got lucky before and there is a specific ability where it's really helpful. If so, I could partially empathize with the leader and feel less angry towards him. So far nobody made any good arguments in that direction, though.

There's a difference between wanting empathy and wanting reassurance that you what you felt was correct. I can empathise while simultaneously disagreeing with your premise.

DBM certainly has its uses (like knowing the timers for bombs blowing up, watching barrage etc) but it isn't just about bar/sound notifications to you but also the /s and /y notifications to others so you're neglecting core functionalities of DBM.

Either way, I don't have a strong opinion about whether DBM warranted you the boot (I certainly don't think it made you as useful as others willing to use it but whatever). I do think it's not worth going on some grand crusade about some RL that booted you from a raid that already seemed like a clown fiesta and just didn't give you a reason. It lacked consideration but I wouldn't label it as some kind of grave injustice.

[Tradu]

Getting frozen in P1 means you have no clue how the fight works, honestly.

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As I said in a different comment, it is an issue with FPS on my computer and a general lack of need for it. Would be nice to know how lack of DBM impedes one on Mythic Jaina, though. I might be wrong without realizing it!

You're playing with less information to base your decisions on. You're objectively making it harder for yourself, and because it's group content that makes it harder for your entire group.

[Gaidax]

I prefer the words you used earlier, emotional validation - which is a very human thing to seek. It would be nice (was, to some extent) to know that some people are still empathetic and willing to look at things from the perspective of another for a change, whether it is me or the paladin. For sure not an echo chamber, because I would never expect everyone to agree with me.

Believe it or not, my mind is not entirely made up about the utility of DBM on Jaina. Maybe I just got lucky before and there is a specific ability where it's really helpful. If so, I could partially empathize with the leader and feel less angry towards him. So far nobody made any good arguments in that direction, though.

Frankly, the more you respond the more I feel for that Raid Leader.

Imagine, dragging 19 window-lickers through the raid with some of them thinking they are some divas, some going randomly afk on pull and some barely pulling their weight. Then when you finally get to that last boss and wipe, you remove a person who was AFK on pull and got himself killed only to be confronted by some bleeding heart who can't fathom as to why said paladin was removed to begin with, while taking pride he does not these "addons 'n shit", because he scrounged a kill somehow in past.

If that Raid Leader would be me, i'd totally:

a. Remove that paladin, because frankly that was BS. It's a common courtesy to say you go AFK, not just do whatever whenever and expect special treatment.
b. Give you a benefit of the doubt for the whole 2 more sentences, which seeing what you do here would likely just lead to more frustration and same kick anyway.

[Tradu]

I am exactly looking for a pulse. In my eyes, it is 100% wrong to act in the manner that the party leader did. It was an exaggerated measure to kick the paladin, and an even more exaggerated measure to kick me. People wail about DBM being the "minimum necessary", but nobody gave a concrete reason as to why it matters on Jaina - missing the pull is immaterial, as one could still miss the pull with DBM, or pay attention and not miss it without it, like I did. One can also make the pull timer visible for people without DBM. But regardless of all that, it is still wrong to cast a more malevolent gaze on someone for a benign comment, and completely wrong to not at least apologize and give a reason for "preemptively" kicking someone, to show that you at least empathize with their frustration for losing the weekly lockout.

People who agree with the leader unequivocally, or even brag how they would have done the same, shows me how far the cancer and putrefaction has spread. It tells me how high my chances are to encounter similar behavior in other pugs, so I can decide whether to keep joining them or to ask some friends and make my own groups. For the most part, the thread has reasserted the notion that you should only play solo or with friends, because you are not a human being to the randoms, you are less than a tool. You are right on one thing though. I did not belong in that group, and it was my mistake for getting into it. Like I said before, joining a group on the first day of the reset was too eager and too greedy, I'll own up to that. That doesn't make the leader any less despicable in my eyes.

Not being able to properly prepot and precast due to lack of a pull timer makes having you in the raid objectively worse than somebody who would do those things.

Surviving a fight really is not a particularly useful benchmark either. You're absolutely right that you don't belong in content that involves other people, because you're choosing to perform worse, which is disrespectful as hell.

[Seranthor]

How exactly did I hold them back? Geez!

Intentionally being unprepared and underperforming is a shining example of holding a group back.