If Rapid Fire was gone.

[Sondrelk]

People sadly do this very often. Everytime there is something they find challenging or annoying they just label it "boring". It's like people saying that Bolstering is boring. Don't get me wrong, I HATE bolstering. It's the most annoying and unpleasant affix in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that it's boring. It just mean that I don't like it.

I would argue that Bolstering is a boring affix because there is no creative means of circumventing it.
Take Sanguine for instance. Similarly to Bolstering it gives adds more health, and in the case of large packs disincentivizes players pulling large packs. But if you still want to then you can go around it, maybe you kite the pack in a giant circle, or use Blizzard or other mass slows on them. That can be fun and engaging.
With Bolstering you have the choice of doing a large pull and restricting your DPS, or doing a small pull, restricting your DPS. There is no counterplay, and therefore no sense of enjoyment.

With Rapid fire though i find that ability boring because there is little to no interplay with other abilities, it just sits there on my actionbar taking up space in my rotation that could have been filled with other talents, but which now are relegated to the useless pile because the rotation is so stuffed to the brim with baseline abilities that any chance of branching out the talent choices is quickly stymied.

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They should just add both Chim and RF on the same talent tier so ppl will have options. The problem I have with MM is Blizz tried to merge the fantasy of a auto gunner and a sniper into one spec, as a result it's a mess.

I could be happy with a Dire beast/Barbed shot situation, where you have Chimaera shot as the baseline ability that gets replaced with Rapid fire if you choose that talent.

[Flaim]

scrap rapid fire. no replacement. compensate steady shot focus generation for that.

[Sondrelk]

scrap rapid fire. no replacement. compensate steady shot focus generation for that.

That would leave the rotation extremely anemic, as opposed to mostly anemic as is. Rapid Fire would need to be replaced with something for the spec to be even somewhat interesting on a base level.
Which is why I would suggest replacing it with Chimaera shot, both removing Rapid fire and giving MM players one of their most iconic abilities back.

[xZerocidex]

I would argue that Bolstering is a boring affix because there is no creative means of circumventing it.
Take Sanguine for instance. Similarly to Bolstering it gives adds more health, and in the case of large packs disincentivizes players pulling large packs. But if you still want to then you can go around it, maybe you kite the pack in a giant circle, or use Blizzard or other mass slows on them. That can be fun and engaging.
With Bolstering you have the choice of doing a large pull and restricting your DPS, or doing a small pull, restricting your DPS. There is no counterplay, and therefore no sense of enjoyment.

With Rapid fire though i find that ability boring because there is little to no interplay with other abilities, it just sits there on my actionbar taking up space in my rotation that could have been filled with other talents, but which now are relegated to the useless pile because the rotation is so stuffed to the brim with baseline abilities that any chance of branching out the talent choices is quickly stymied.

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I could be happy with a Dire beast/Barbed shot situation, where you have Chimaera shot as the baseline ability that gets replaced with Rapid fire if you choose that talent.

I'm in favor of this, makes sense since Chim Shot was there before RF.

[Gasparde]

I still don't understand who thought that giving a MARKSMAN a spray and pray ability was a good idea. Scrap that, with Barrage they even have access to 2. Just like with Sidewinders just randomly hitting anything and everything in front of you makes absolutely no sense.

If they wanna keep those spells rename the spec pew-pew-boy. Too bad they removed range SV which would've had very little problems with spells of that theme - better just randomly slap them all onto MM I suppose.

[xZerocidex]

I still don't understand who thought that giving a MARKSMAN a spray and pray ability was a good idea. Scrap that, with Barrage they even have access to 2. Just like with Sidewinders just randomly hitting anything and everything in front of you makes absolutely no sense.

If they wanna keep those spells rename the spec pew-pew-boy. Too bad they removed range SV which would've had very little problems with spells of that theme - better just randomly slap them all onto MM I suppose.

Someone who was incredibly incompetent, reminder there was a talent(I think it was Legion or BfA) in the works called Light 'em Up, basically dealing more DPS to enemies in flare.

Someone seriously thought it was a good idea to tie a damage boost to a skill when it's only purpose it to reveal invisible units, I don't know why it's so fucking hard for the class team to make the spec feel like a sniper again... I just don't get it, most likely this will be the third expansion where they fucked up again.

[Shinrael]

I don't main a Hunter but I do play one and I used to main one back in WotLK. And I must say that I fucking hate Rapid Fire... I REALLY want to play Hunter you know. And if I play Hunter, I will be Marksmanship. That is my class fantasy. I want to wear my awesome Thoras'dal with the heritage armor and kill stuff from afar. But I just can't because Rapid Fire is so annoying to use (and immersion breaking too). I know my point of view doesn't represent all the Hunter mains, but I could have been a Hunter main too if it wasn't for that ability. I love the way Aimed Shot works atm.

[Pigglix]

I like rapid fire, alot, specially with a gun, because it brings the old gun sound back.

But now, i need help to understand why "everyone" keeps saying MM need to be a slow af ass caster type thing to fit the theme of the spec.

The spec description is: A master Sharpshooter who excels in bringing down enemies from afar

There's nothing in the description that say "it has to be this slow af little guy who takes all of his time in the world to fire ONE perfect shot nor it does say its a sniper. I mean, even snipers has training to rapid fire with their gun if shits get too close.

So i am really confused from where that comes from, because you see, Legolas is a god damn markmanship archer, and we dont see him as this "slow caster type"

So is HawkEye from avengers, both are marksmanship archers and not only they dont take forever to shoot arrows, but they also move alot in combat, so i cant help myself but scratch my head hard when i see people wanting MM hunters to be a slow caster type and hating on "instant" casts or when the animation is to shoot several arrows/shots in a rapid sucession saying it dosent fit the theme of the spec. Hello? if you still excel in bringing enemies from afar, dosent really matter if you did it with one slow af shot or with several shots in a rapid sucession, thus, fitting more than fine the theme of the spec.

So if someone want explain that to me and help me understand why they/you think MM hunter has to be this "slow ass caster type", please do so, because to me , its veery confusing. Now, if you prefer a "slow gameplay" rather than a fast/spammy one, that's super fine. Now saying its because it dosent fit the theme of the class? Eh..i really cant understand that.

[Lazuli]

I don't understand how rapid fire is immersion breaking, you're a master marksman, that doesn't mean you have to have only slow as fuck abilities. Its just like rapid fire in GW2 on ranger, it fits the theme of the class.

How is chimaera shot any more interesting , AT ALL?

Rapid does have 1 of the worst animations in WoW though, if not THE worst. It looks so fucking goofy and outdated, 0 effort into it.

[Sondrelk]

I don't understand how rapid fire is immersion breaking, you're a master marksman, that doesn't mean you have to have only slow as fuck abilities. Its just like rapid fire in GW2 on ranger, it fits the theme of the class.

How is chimaera shot any more interesting , AT ALL?

Rapid does have 1 of the worst animations in WoW though, if not THE worst. It looks so fucking goofy and outdated, 0 effort into it.

It's immersion breaking because the ability looks extremely silly. There is a reason it is derogatively called Seizure Shot.
This janky animations means that it is difficult to accept it as something out characters are actually doing, as opposed to Chimaera shot, which at its base level is our characters being good enough archers that they can fire 2 shots at the same time with lethal efficiency, contrasting Multi-shot which is more our character randomly shooting a bunch of arrows into a crowd.

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I like rapid fire, alot, specially with a gun, because it brings the old gun sound back.

But now, i need help to understand why "everyone" keeps saying MM need to be a slow af ass caster type thing to fit the theme of the spec.

The spec description is: A master Sharpshooter who excels in bringing down enemies from afar

There's nothing in the description that say "it has to be this slow af little guy who takes all of his time in the world to fire ONE perfect shot nor it does say its a sniper. I mean, even snipers has training to rapid fire with their gun if shits get too close.

So i am really confused from where that comes from, because you see, Legolas is a god damn markmanship archer, and we dont see him as this "slow caster type"

So is HawkEye from avengers, both are marksmanship archers and not only they dont take forever to shoot arrows, but they also move alot in combat, so i cant help myself but scratch my head hard when i see people wanting MM hunters to be a slow caster type and hating on "instant" casts or when the animation is to shoot several arrows/shots in a rapid sucession saying it dosent fit the theme of the spec. Hello? if you still excel in bringing enemies from afar, dosent really matter if you did it with one slow af shot or with several shots in a rapid sucession, thus, fitting more than fine the theme of the spec.

So if someone want explain that to me and help me understand why they/you think MM hunter has to be this "slow ass caster type", please do so, because to me , its veery confusing. Now, if you prefer a "slow gameplay" rather than a fast/spammy one, that's super fine. Now saying its because it dosent fit the theme of the class? Eh..i really cant understand that.

MM can be fast, and the BfA version is close to perfect in spec identity. It is just lacking in gameplay.
MM should absolutely have moments where they get to fill the opponent with arrows, Volley and Chimaera shot are perfect examples of the awesome but silly archetype archer, and the Master Marksman archetypes meet.
Aimed Shot is also one of those abilities that feed directly into that more serious feeling of being an amazing archer, by feeding into the idea that you take your time to hit the perfect shot to do the most damage, even as much as Hawkeye and Legolas get to blindly shoot arrows until they win, they do also have moment where they focus, take aim and shoot someone decisvely, Hawkeye just has few of those moments because the actions takes precedent over realism.

The problem with instacasts is also one that is more a gameplay problem, more so than a spec fantasy problem. Because while it is fitting that a Master Marksman gets to quickly take loads of shots into someone, it is less awesome when this means loads of GCDs.

So it is definitely not that MM should be the slow and boring archetype. More so that Aimed Shot is perfectly fitting as a base ability, it just needs more abilities that support the gameplay, instead of the weird mishmash of barely innterconnected abilities that struggles to branch out into different talent builds.

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I've been thinking of a way to make Rapid Fire less janky and seizurely.

If anyone's familiar with Sylvanas' HotS ability Withering Fire, my idea is basically that. When you press Rapid Fire, copies of your character sorta spawn next to, on and around your character firing shots along with your actual character.

You could spin this two ways, that either the hunter is using magic to summon copies of them self to loose arrows along with them, OR they're firing so quickly that they appear in multiple different places all at once.

That way your actual character doesn't have to speed up its shooting animation to seizurely degrees, because you have multiple 'copies' helping out and you can RP it either way, speedy marksman or sniper with a little magical help, MM already uses Arcane Shot so it's not too crazy.

It would be similar to Guardian Druid's Maul ability where they slam down but three bears appear slamming down as well.

That could certainly work, though it might feel a bit out of place in the spec that is still one of the more grounded ones in WoW. The most magical the spec has been is the usage of exotic ammunitions and magical weapons like Thas'dorah in Legion.

Though honestly, the bigger problem with Rapid Fire is more that the ability takes so long to finish chanelling, and it is up so often. Though that could be more a problem with Azerite. Though even then you have the cooldown go down massively during Trueshot, where the cast time not being shortened means that using it causes you to cap on Aimed Shot charges.
The focus regen effect on it also means that Steady Shot is left partially useless, and by proxy the talents meant to buff it, as they simply cannot reasonably be fitted into the rotation without capping on something else.

[Lazuli]

It's immersion breaking because the ability looks extremely silly. There is a reason it is derogatively called Seizure Shot.
This janky animations means that it is difficult to accept it as something out characters are actually doing, as opposed to Chimaera shot, which at its base level is our characters being good enough archers that they can fire 2 shots at the same time with lethal efficiency, contrasting Multi-shot which is more our character randomly shooting a bunch of arrows into a crowd.

Well I agree with that but in that case it just needs an animation update.

[threads]

How is chimaera shot any more interesting , AT ALL?

I always liked chimera shot. Doesn't do physical damage. Can cleave 2 targets. Bursty instant shot. Felt good to chain aimed -> chimera -> kill shot for burst. Used to have synergy with hunter stings too.

Rapid fire no 2 target cleave. Damage is spread out so if something dies it just cancels and you lose damage. Longer cd. Makes the spec feel too mage-like.

[Lazuli]

I always liked chimera shot. Doesn't do physical damage. Can cleave 2 targets. Bursty instant shot. Felt good to chain aimed -> chimera -> kill shot for burst. Used to have synergy with hunter stings too.

Rapid fire no 2 target cleave. Damage is spread out so if something dies it just cancels and you lose damage. Longer cd. Makes the spec feel too mage-like.

Chimaera used to be a good ability that did damage and had synergy with stings, but is now a worthless piece of shit. So I'd want sting and old chimaera back if losing rapid or make them both in same talent line to stay true to the herp derp prune mentality blizz has, no reason we can't have all of them. I like rapid better on aoe and double tap st, aimed shot is just a boring cast time which is more mage like than anything.

I think a good compromise is to make rapid like a 1min cd, do good dmg (with visual update), and give back the aforementioned abilities for a solid rotation. I'd still think the cast time on aimed is too fucking ridiculous. It worked back when the game was much slower.. but eh.

[Sondrelk]

Chimaera used to be a good ability that did damage and had synergy with stings, but is now a worthless piece of shit. So I'd want sting and old chimaera back if losing rapid or make them both in same talent line to stay true to the herp derp prune mentality blizz has, no reason we can't have all of them. I like rapid better on aoe and double tap st, aimed shot is just a boring cast time which is more mage like than anything.

I think a good compromise is to make rapid like a 1min cd, do good dmg (with visual update), and give back the aforementioned abilities for a solid rotation. I'd still think the cast time on aimed is too fucking ridiculous. It worked back when the game was much slower.. but eh.

Chimaera shot was also iconic bakc in hte day because it was possibly the most efficient 2-target cleave, which could be compunded if the version we get back gave Trick Shots, allowing us to finally get that 2-target cleave which was once so iconic.

I do agree that another option is to make the cooldown on Rapid Fire longer though, the biggest problem with it currently outside the animation being awful is that you use it too much for MM to have room for anything else. Making it far more of a reward would allow it to be a powerful ability that feels good to use, without infringing on Aimed Shot, who currently is similal in that both are long cast time, high damage abilities that work with Trick Shots and Double Tap.

[Sondrelk]

Here's the difference

Rapid Fire is better
Rapid Fire generates more focus
Rapid Fire does more damage
Rapid Fire can do huge AOE
Rapid Fire isn't always available

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I genuinely don't get the rapid fire hate, it's the only thing that makes MM unique at this point, aside from AS - people need to stop preaching for shit to be removed, it's so toxic and dumb. Just don't play the spec if you don't like it, don't ask blizz to ruin it so you can play it

Then why bother with attempting to push Steady Shot at all? MM is not the kind of spec that needs more than 1 focus generator in their general rotation.
MM has Aimed Shot, it is at the core of the Marksman spec fantasy, and once upon a time we had Chimaera shot, which gave MM a more defined niche. It was also the kind of ability that more naturally slots into various builds, as opposed to Rapid Fire, which currently locks down builds instead of providing fertile growth for MM.
Rapid Fire isnt just bad because it is meaningless, but because its current incarnation stymies variety in MM builds. You do not have enough GCDs to add serpent sting for instance, the rotation already prevents you from using all the charges of either Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire during Trueshot because of the channel time.

Also, it is perfectly possible to like MM and still object to elements of it. I heavily disliked teh fantasy of Marked Shot in Legion and liked the idea of charges and hardcasts in BfA, despite it being very contrary to how it played in Legion. I am a staunch MM player, and I refuse to move away from it just because there are elements I dislike. I would much rather petition to have the spec altered slightly. Partially because I enjoy it and feel I have improvements on it, and partially because no spec is perfect, or is missing room for growth.

Arguing that everyone who doesnt like your view of it are no true fans is far more toxic to the community than arguing over whether Rapid Fire is better than Chimaera Shot.

[docterfreeze]

Here's the difference

Rapid Fire is better
Rapid Fire generates more focus
Rapid Fire does more damage
Rapid Fire can do huge AOE
Rapid Fire isn't always available

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I genuinely don't get the rapid fire hate, it's the only thing that makes MM unique at this point, aside from AS - people need to stop preaching for shit to be removed, it's so toxic and dumb. Just don't play the spec if you don't like it, don't ask blizz to ruin it so you can play it

That's what i'm talking about. Rapid fire is better in almost every way. The only reason steady shot exists is to make sure players are always pressing a button. Class design has moved on from classic; filler buttons with zero interactions with other abilities is bad design. In the past steady shots could increase attack speed, focus generation, or allow for instant free aimed shots. Those effects should be reintroduced.

Blizz already ruined the spec so that shouldn't be your worry. Bad changes should be reversed.

[aeonss]

In some reason i did loved MM back in legion, the problem we have right now is trick shot bull***, due to that they butchered Trueshot. It was best cd, right now it feels worst.

[RsinRC]

As much as I enjoy MM I never liked how rapid fire works, behaves or looks.

The animation is the biggest culprit. Also the idea that in 3s you shoot 10 arrows might sound cool until you see your toon scratching a new remix.

If they decide to keep it, they should allow it to also finish casting even if you don't have a target like it did initially. Not sure why it HAS to be 1 or the other. I'm pretty sure that throughout bfa I've lost 100s of millions worth of damage because of how it cuts out when a target dies

Rapid Fire does a few things so to replace it we must find what works. It doesn't have to be replaced by 1 thing either.
It does Nuke type damage. It does both single and aoe damage. It allows damage done out of LoS.

Chimaera? Honestly been there done that.

[Bepples]

Then why bother with attempting to push Steady Shot at all? MM is not the kind of spec that needs more than 1 focus generator in their general rotation.
MM has Aimed Shot, it is at the core of the Marksman spec fantasy, and once upon a time we had Chimaera shot, which gave MM a more defined niche. It was also the kind of ability that more naturally slots into various builds, as opposed to Rapid Fire, which currently locks down builds instead of providing fertile growth for MM.
Rapid Fire isnt just bad because it is meaningless, but because its current incarnation stymies variety in MM builds. You do not have enough GCDs to add serpent sting for instance, the rotation already prevents you from using all the charges of either Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire during Trueshot because of the channel time.

Rapid Fire is not what's locking MM into a single builds. Go look at the MM talents. The only one out of all of them that is remotely hurt by the existence of Rapid Fire is Steady Focus, which is frankly a dreadfully-designed talent in its current incarnation and nothing like what it used to be (it could actually be decent if it were like the old version). Every other tier is dominated by 1 talent due to poor talent design or tuning. Careful Aim, for example, is a formerly-baseline talent that's critical to how the spec works. This rules out Explosive Shot and Volley as valid options. Same goes for Master Marksman to an extent: it's different to the old Master MM but it's necessary for the function of the spec so Murder of Crows and Serpent Sting are ruled out as valid options. Some of this will get better next expansion. Some will stay the same or get worse (capping Barrage targets will forever end that ability's usefulness in all situations, further cementing Double Tap as the best option). Not having spare GCDs is not MM's problem. The existence of Arcane Shot is precisely for filling the spare GCDs the spec has. In fact, the focus Rapid Fire gives adds flexibility to MM. The problem is lazy, rushed talent design.

It is very hard to come up with unique and compelling abilities for a spec based on physical damage. Rapid Fire is fun to use and feels impactful, especially after following an Aimed Shot. I'll be damned if we lose this ability because some forum warrior doesn't like its animation and makes up 100 fake excuses as to why it's a terrible thing that undermines the spec.

[Sondrelk]

Rapid Fire is not what's locking MM into a single builds. Go look at the MM talents. The only one out of all of them that is remotely hurt by the existence of Rapid Fire is Steady Focus, which is frankly a dreadfully-designed talent in its current incarnation and nothing like what it used to be (it could actually be decent if it were like the old version). Every other tier is dominated by 1 talent due to poor talent design or tuning. Careful Aim, for example, is a formerly-baseline talent that's critical to how the spec works. This rules out Explosive Shot and Volley as valid options. Same goes for Master Marksman to an extent: it's different to the old Master MM but it's necessary for the function of the spec so Murder of Crows and Serpent Sting are ruled out as valid options. Some of this will get better next expansion. Some will stay the same or get worse (capping Barrage targets will forever end that ability's usefulness in all situations, further cementing Double Tap as the best option). Not having spare GCDs is not MM's problem. The existence of Arcane Shot is precisely for filling the spare GCDs the spec has. In fact, the focus Rapid Fire gives adds flexibility to MM. The problem is lazy, rushed talent design.

It is very hard to come up with unique and compelling abilities for a spec based on physical damage. Rapid Fire is fun to use and feels impactful, especially after following an Aimed Shot. I'll be damned if we lose this ability because some forum warrior doesn't like its animation and makes up 100 fake excuses as to why it's a terrible thing that undermines the spec.

Rapid fire is available way too often. Had the cooldown on it been something more like 45second-1min, then it could be a more properly impactful and satisfying ability. Currently you struggle to even use it consistently on cooldown. Yes, that is partially because of all the Azerite abilities that reset the cooldown, trueshot and Skitra bow, but still.

Have you used Trueshot recently? The cast time on Rapid Fire is atrocious. You waste an Aimed Shot charge just in the time it takes you to finish channeling.
Reaplce it with something else, or at least make the cooldown longer.

But hey, at least in Shadowlands we get Chimaera shot as a talent. Not sure why it isnt baseline when it used to be since MM was a thing, but who cares about that. Not like it fills the very specific 2-target cleave MM players have been annoyed by the entirety of BfA. Could even add Trick Shots proc to it so it is more powerful.
Though then again, just like I have mentioned, it is quite likely it will end up unuised, because the MM rotation heavily favors passive buffs, since we have so little downtime to actually fit in new stuff.