Heartfelt Night elf account has changed my mind

[Surfd]

To All Nightborne fansIt’s also incredible that on seeing what the night elves have gone through you would still support the Nightborne over them… if I were a Nightborne, I’d be banging on Thalyssra’s door and telling her we’ve got to help, SCREW the horde, we’ve got to call them home - the city has more than enough room after the losses in Legion, they’re are kin, they’ve sacrificed and gone far above and beyond, we can’t do nothing.

A question, if you will:

How do you reconcile the existence of the Nightborne with the Quel'dorei history?

I mean, lets be honest here. Before Legion, they didn't even exist. Nobody had ever heard of an entire city of lost former Highborne that somehow magically survived the sundering (despite being literally within spitting distance of the Well when it exploded), the cataclysm, and everything else. No mention of them existed in any prior lore. And then suddenly Poof, entire lost city of yet more elves, and a gigantic massive retconning of everything we know about the first war and the sundering.

Now, why do I mention Quel'dorei history? Because the Nightborne have been in contact with the Quel'dorei. They KNOW how the Night Elves reacted after the fall of Ashzara. And you expect them to be "thankful" for the fact that the Night Elves "saved" them from the legion while they were trapped in their long, self imposed exile? Don't be daft. You and I (and they) all know that if it wasn't for that bubble around the city, the entire lot of them would currently BE Blood Elves because they would have been banished across the sea 1200 years ago with the rest of the Highborne.

- - - Updated - - -

yet that same race has also been described, as benevolent, graceful, highly magical and done wondroust hing.

Yet if I want to play that side of them, I can't because you believe that savage, forest dwelling and aggressive is the only way they can be. Right. Maybe I chose night elves because they have both these qualities, and i'd like to see both continue, not just one. And that regardless of what other sub-races have or don't have.

True, but that's because classic "Night Elf" society was built on an INSANELY rigid caste system. You were either Highborne (arcane magical, graceful, aristocratic, arrogant) or you were "Night Elf" (savage, aggressive, forest dwelling, nature magical, still arrogant).

Thing is, the "playable" Night Elf faction basically NEVER included the Highborne. The "savage" version was your entire exposure to them in WC3, with the exception of the Naga, where you are told "This is what happened to the Highborne who followed Ashzara". And then your basic introduction to them in WoW lore was "Oh yeah, we BANISHED the entire lot of them who survived the Sundering across the sea where they basically became an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FACTION known as High Elves. Whoops.

So yes, the reason you can't play your Aristocratic, Arcane Magical Night Elf Highborne is because other than the Shendralar exiles, they basically don't actually EXIST any more in Night Elf society: the Night Elves essentially eradicated them. So you can blame the Night Elves for that.

[Aresk]

You might be a little bit confused because I don't think anyone said NIght elves should outright take it from them, or at least not seriously - if you read the post I quoted in the OP, it does make you feel a sense of in justice over the main Kaldorei group, those who spear head the Darnassian faction, as the real stars and the Nightborne through their actions rather undeserving the comfort and peace they've enjoyed - it is in that sense "they don't deserve it", "kick them out" is being said - like a dad would threatn a son who hsn't pulled his act together and has really disappointed recently and isn't deserving of the privileges of the family because of his recent bad choices - and so needs some tieme out and should go through some hardships. Read it.

I did read it. It painted the night elves as victims, despite their actions being the ones that first brought the Legion here. It talked about their generosity and selflessness, even as Tyrande is regaled a hero after murdering wardens binding Illidan and Maiev a hero after murdering highborne when they rejoined their kin in Darnassus. The quote you gave said "the least the Shal’dorei can do is welcome the Darnassians back home regardless of what the horde say, the very lest, and if they refuse, they should lose Suramar." That's delivering an ultimatum and resorting to force if the other party doesn't agree. That's not a parent scolding a child. That's a people threatening to invade another people.

Okay, I think you're also confusing this, I've read most of th responses here, but you can't skim them or you will be confused. I think in the part different night elven societies were been spoken about was with respect to the breadth and diversity that is part of the Night elf race which isn't locked into druidism or the forest as it's only or even only primary racial attribute. it's just one of several, that most recently dominated, and the druids should not be confused with the night elf faction of the Darnassians, because you have the druids who have their own orgnaisations, several in fact, many no longer exclusively night elven and not part of the night elves.

Sharing Suramar is actually from the perspective of the Alliance faction. True it could become a capital for all nations, the original inhabitants of Suramar both Night elven and Nightborne want it to be freely available, but not all night elven factions are united yet atm.

It seems like you're writing druids out of the society, yet the highborne that are less prevalent in the Alliance night elven society (having only been a part of it since Cataclysm and only have shown to have a minor influence within the Alliance). That doesn't even touch on the fact that the Shen'drelar had strong relations with Horde adventurers before rejoining the Alliance (similar to how the Zandalari used to have strong relationships with the Alliance before the Catalcysm removal of those reputations). If we're going to talk about the Alliance society of night elves, it has to be representative. You can't have just druids, just Sentinels, just highborne, just priestesses, and just citizenry. You have to take all of those into account.

To answer your question, no one is saying it like that either, because that doesn't make sense.. going to Suramar as home is because the Darnassian faction largely come from it, have no home and well their original home is there, so naturally they should go back home. Not sure about the other factions, I didn't see it mentioned, but maybe it was, - if they go to Suramar it's not just because it was once Nihgt elves, it would be because Suramar is presenting itself and opening itself up to be the centre and capital for all Night elves.

Tyrande and Shandris came from Suramar. Malfurion and Illidan were born elsewhere and grew up in Suramar. Yet I haven't seen any of them say that they want to move back there. There's certainly nostalgia, but I don't consider places I grew up as "home" anymore after moving away for two decades, let alone ten thousand years. Their home is Kalimdor. That's the land that they went to war to reclaim. That's the land they spent ten thousand years defending. While I could understand the argument you present if the society had an interest in living in Suramar, we haven't seen that in game. They may not have a capital city anymore, but they definitely still have a land they call home, and Suramar isn't in it.

Tbh, this is an approach the Nightborne could take, aware of the plight of the Darnassians, the state of Night elf kind globally, is not good, but the Legion is defeated, they did it all together, they have this racial bond and the Nightborne might take it upon themselves as the strongest surviving night elven faction with stable infrastructure to be leaders of the race and unify the night elves to help them heal.

Obviously for such a thing to happen, blizzard must account for the Nightborne being on the horde and many of the Night elves being on the alliance. They may have to do something new in this regard, but then it's not the first time people of multiple factions, including horde and alliance have shared a city, this happens in Shattrath, Dalaran - ec, in this case the occuppants are just nocturnal, i.e. night elves instead of every alliance or horde race.

That would be an interesting story development, for sure! That's a far cry from "You don't deserve Suramar, so we're living here now." It also doesn't quite mesh with Tyrande's sentiments in Legion, her suspicion of the Nightborne, and her decision to not unify their people. Furthermore, it seems Thalyssra considers the kaldorei arrogant (which somewhat amuses me given her close ties with the sin'dorei), so we'll see if anything like that ever comes about.

That is the most desired option. Although the building would be done by the Shen'dralar and druids as it was in the pre-sundering era. It is people that determine culture, cities don't have culture because they're cities. Put the people in there and they determine what culture the city would have. Most cities today have multiple cultures - hence the term "multi-cultural city" - Suramar itself had in the pre-sundering era, a culture that was a fusion fo the religious order or Elune, the aloof Highborne and the wilds revering , but also very much arcanised other/lower castes. Certain cultural traits would have dominated, traditions and belief structures we haven't actually had a good look at yet, because blizzard hasn't shown us this combination. Cities in such situation develop a dominant, overarching culture amidst all the sub-culture based on the group so that lie within it. Arcane culture mindset would be prevalent amongst the Nightborne and highborne citizens, but not amongst some of the other night elven citizens who would have various ones if they were in groups. The priesthood would have it's own, even with their base at the Cathedral. The sentinels are not a people group, they are a military unit, the martial arm of the Order of Elune and part of the priesthood culture.

However it would be no different if they build a new city, you would also have a collection of cultures in it, as you would have the Highborne amongst the Darnassians, the Order of Elune female dominated religious order culture, the nature loving druidic culture for those of the forest dwellers that would live in the city, probably in its parks and gardens or citizens from that culture.

I don't see how being in a new city somehow auto makes it easier than in Suramar.

Why would they build in a style over ten-thousand years old that they've shown no interest in more recently? Darnassus was built approximately eleven years ago (after the events of TFT). Architecture is a result of culture, and as such, cities are an expression of the culture that build them. Where are the moonwells in Suramar City? Where are the Ancients? These are elements of Alliance night elf culture that we continue to see expressed in their society today, and a night elf city without those elements would not feel night elf.

I think the idea overall is an interesting one, but not for the direction that WoW took post-Nighthold. The Alliance night elves have shown no interest in occupying Suramar City or reconciling with the Nightborne. I think it would be cool to have a Suramar City update and have some night elves choose to visit it, just like we have some blood elves periodically visiting Stormwind City. I just don't see Suramar City as a cultural center for Alliance night elf society.

[Koryn123]

10 words in and i started reading that post in Kaz voice.

Kazuhara "They Played Us Like A Damn Fiddle" Miller?

[Mace]

Hard Truths About Night Elves Some BElf Fans Just Ain't Getting
1. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Nightborne are the night elven arcane/pre-sundering aspect of the night elves. A highborne led culture. However they ARE NOT a replacement for the night elven arcane wielders or highborne, nor are they the excuse for the development of that side of the night elves to stop on the night elves.

This would be very rude to night elf fans, especially since they are on different factions. The point of allied races is not to replace core races, they're just another type of the core race, given so you can enjoy new models. Because Nightborne are now on the horde, they have nothing to do with the continued growth and development of the modern Darnassian society, and now they're a night elven group joined to the destiny of the blood elves - Hordies may be fine with what they're seeing, but some NElf fans are still waiting for thei race to get better developed, get a capital city, get powerful again too.


2. I liked Nighbborne, but I admit, that they could be more likeable. For my tastes, they need to be more likeable because of how things have gone. They were likeable in 7.0, but since going horde I've seen little to like about them, probably it's because of the night elves and how their decision to go horde shows them as being ungrateful,to their kin whom they owe their lives too. They owe a 3 times over debt to kaldorei people, which they need to start showing signs of willing to pay. Until then it's hard to like them.

I can't help them being on the horde - but frankly, to start killing and fighting your kin, just because they were "reluctant" to help you, despite them actually doing so and having saved you few times - it's not likeable at all. As a player, you gotta give me good things to like. See I like the Orcs, I like the Tauren, while I'm not a big fan of the greedy goblin attitude, hey, I like some goblins and find them fun - orcs did a lot of wrong, but they sure as hell tried to make up for it.

Blood elves' reasoning for joining the horde is not good enough for me to like them, it's fine though, they aren't meant to be high elf likeable types, blizz made that clear. However I can like certain characters like Liadrin, Halduron, Aethas and Lor'themar - although for what Liadrin represents, I'm disappointed, she should have been a strong and vocal critic of what Sylvanas was doing, or been involved heavily alongside Baine and Thrall and the others, maybe even been the one that was key in persuading Lor'themar to act sooner rather than later.

Never liked Forsaken, not until I read before the storm, and for the first time I liked some of the council members and indviduals. However again, not every race is there to be good. I was also no a big fan of trolls at all, but I did like Vol'jin in shadows of Vol'jin, I could have grown to like them more, at least the Darkspears if they were portrayed like that. I do like the Zandalari - talanji and the tohers we help are generally doing the right thing. I don't hate the alliance for their attacking, I understand why this is done ofc,.

3. Finally, let me make it clear. I like the druidic /forest side of the night elves, but it's not the whole of the night elves, and I don't want it to be either. I remember classic to WotLK, and by the end of wrath, NElves were boring, everytime they showed up it was about nature and we only saw their race involved with druidism, - they might as well have been called the druid race - gone were the Amazonian female warrior side of the night elves, the Moon Preistesses, still absent were the arcane wielding night elves, and while TBC had Demon hunters, it's like they were killed off. This isn't good for a race, druid seemed the only class Night elves were special about. Lore wise, it isn't even the majority of them, it's like a third. The priesthood is another large portion of them, and they are not "forest elf" types, but they have forest elf aspect of them in this Amazonian , huntress sentinel types. Warden and Moon Priestessses don't give up that vibe. Also Highborne, pre-sundering night elven arcana is a huge part of the lore and identity of the race.

4. Just because most of the Darnassians aren't arcanised or the arcane isn't widespread in their society to the pre-sundering extents like you see in Nightborne doesn't mean this isn't a huge part of the race and its lore. It's just not a huge part of current Darnassian society/ This is where a lot of arguments are coming from, so I have to spend time showing or reminding people what I mean by that (cos they keep thinking of Darnassian society having priests and druids and not mages and jumping to conclusions rather than paying attention to the words and terms I use).

5. Night elves having a city doesn't make them opulent nor does it mean they are returning to the worse traits of the pre-sundering empire which were prevalent because of the arcane addiction. They don't have arcane addiction anymore, what makes anyone think that somehow living in a city means they're going to be like that? or having the arcane prolific in their society means it's going to be like that.?

People are just writing rubbish without givng much thought at all, and err as a consequence. Night elves never hated their city or civilizaiton, they did hate the arrogance of the Highborne and the reckless use of magic - huge difference. Using arcane magic a lot, or living in a city doesn't necessary mean you are going to be doing so recklessly, become an addict or live a decadent and opulent life.

6. Also having cities too, doesn't mean all of a sudden night elven druids stop becoming druids - I notice the horde fan base trying to pretend as if this would change the night elves to not be night elves, it's a lying argument, with no basis, aimed at making you want to feel that night elven cities or arcane wielding is some anti-night elven thing. It isn't - some may have thought so because the night elves of thelong vigil banned the arcane, but that ban was in place to prevent the legion finding our world again, not because this state defines the night elf race.

[matrix123mko]

Night elves deserve nothing. They left Suramar willingly and there is no place for them.

[ravenmoon]

I'm fine with Highborne stuff, but can we refrain from trying to make Night Elves all Highborne stuff? If I wanted a type of elf whose entire society and culture is shaped by non-naturalistic magics, I'd pick Blood Elves, Nightborne or Void Elves.

THe interesting thing is I'm not doing that, the conversation veers that way, because as soon as one mentions night elves having highborne stuff or a right to it at least, or mention it is a core part of their race. You have the BElf horde crowd coming on telling you how insignificant, marginalised and not part of the night elves it is, but that's only part of the blood elves.

This is ofc not true, so you end up having myself and others chime in to say exactly so and show it too. However not once, not once do you hear any of us trying to make night elves all highborne stuff. They don't like night elves having that because it may mean getting fancy development of all the things they like about the elves that are now on the horde. But hang on a sec.. becaues they like their elves having powerful cool magic wielding abilities and fantastic cities, my elves shouldn't have those? This is basically what is being argued.

So they start making a case for whiy night elves shouldn't have cities (like they abandoned that lifestyle), why night elves shouldn't have powerful magic (they hate arcane and abandoned it) - you counter explaining to them what a lore story is, what the account tells us showing us why and how this isn't the case now, what it means, proving to them it's there cos it's a core part of the race (alongside nature love and Elune love) - they don't want to hear it - it's an insginificant and minor portion they retort - as if that somehow makes night elves unworthy of having cities or powerful arcane wielders. - all because .. they don't want the enemy faction being cool.

That's wht this is about, it's the same motivations they vehemently opposed alliance high elves, despite them always being on the alliance, totally ignoring that they were there - "oh they are a tiny portion", "they should die out" - I famously remember Combatbulter consistently posting - they dont' want alliance having something nice and enviable.. this is the entire motivation about it.

The argument here is not making Night elves all Highborne stuff, nope, it's that Night elves have highborne stuff - and the irony about it, is that this is the race that highborne stuff belongs to and comes from

[Venziir]

Good God man! Elf fans have way too much time on their hands

[mysticx]

Good God man! Elf fans have way too much time on their hands

Too many loose ends in the story as well, after an expansion where all they did was getting kicked around by the almighty horde, the Night elves are left hanging (A footnote that the eternally see-sawing warfront is canonically an Alliance win doesn't help much), with a vague promise that maybe, in several years, if they don't change their minds by then, and development resources permitting, we *might* get some follow-up on this whole "Stuck slumming it on the streets of Stormwind"-business.

[ravenmoon]

A question, if you will:

How do you reconcile the existence of the Nightborne with the Quel'dorei history?

I mean, lets be honest here. Before Legion, they didn't even exist. Nobody had ever heard of an entire city of lost former Highborne that somehow magically survived the sundering (despite being literally within spitting distance of the Well when it exploded), the cataclysm, and everything else. No mention of them existed in any prior lore. And then suddenly Poof, entire lost city of yet more elves, and a gigantic massive retconning of everything we know about the first war and the sundering.

Now, why do I mention Quel'dorei history? Because the Nightborne have been in contact with the Quel'dorei. They KNOW how the Night Elves reacted after the fall of Ashzara. And you expect them to be "thankful" for the fact that the Night Elves "saved" them from the legion while they were trapped in their long, self imposed exile? Don't be daft. You and I (and they) all know that if it wasn't for that bubble around the city, the entire lot of them would currently BE Blood Elves because they would have been banished across the sea 1200 years ago with the rest of the Highborne.

It's a valid hypothesis, and something perhaps a blood elf might think, because he only views the exile from the vantage point of one being wronged exarcebated by what was done.

Let me paint another scenario. The Nightborne learn of that, just like the Highborne in Eldre'thalas - but have no bias towards etiher elf group. The very actions that kept them safe were because the kaldorei did not use magic - as a Nightborne (unlike current day blood elves), you know exactly what it means for a kaldorei to not use magic, you know the love for magic and the pride of the kaldorei - so to make step such as not using magic, is a HEAVY cost only a night elf would understand.

You also know the science, these guys have no shield, no one to device it for them, perhaps at this point a Nightborne looking back realises that the shield being up is how and why they were completely undisturbed by the Legion too.

However this threat is very real for those outside, the logical choice to save the world is to sacrifice your magic - this is viewed as incredibly brave and praiseworthy, "I'm not sure I'd have been able to do that" - the feeling you get when people do extraordinary acts of selfless sacrifice to save others.

You can now look back in hindsight, and see why everything is done, and the necessity for it, but a group that doesn't realise yet that there is another way. Darth'remar you find out did hypothesize, but then there was no iron clad proof, and his people having been the ones from the palace, you can understand why others would not trust them as much.

You would have wanted Darth'remar to have done better, tried harder to show your kin and restore magic, his failure responsible for setting back your kins progress by 7,000 years. Of all the things they could have done, they tried to force the hand of the others by creating a storm, but it went horribly wrong - and instead of convincing the others, confirmed their worse fears.

It's tragic, how can you hate the kaldorei, who's actions saved you, and kept the world legion free for so long? GIven that you were unaffected precisely because of that?? Who suffered the most, who had to live without the greater conveniences of life? Is it not the kaldorei? You can admire the Quel'dorei Sunstriders for enduring their hardship and making it work too. But you can admire the Darnassians for sticking it out like they did, protecting the world, then sacrificing their immortality and lives again, without question to banish the legion again.

Remember, there are two sides to the banning of arcane magic, high elves are going to hate regardless because they were the ones affected, losing a more enhanced state, and the suffering they endured to survive. Every magic user, and remember most night elves in the long vigil had been magic users in the pre-sundering era, there were Moonguard and non-Sunstrider Highborne who were all in agreement with the ban, Darth'remar considered his group the most qualified to make the assessments on what was possible magically concerning the demons - and he was right, not because he was highborne and the others weren't qualified, gifted, talented or knowledgeable, but his group were the ones who specilaised in making and stabilising the portals for the demons to enter, studying twisting nether magical physics, the interaction what causes the two locations to connect, what the other side sees etc, would be something they would be most familiar with and I think at this point he had a theory of how it could work - which would have been great news.

Except, Malfurion believes the risk to great and ultimately un-necessary. He is a druid, he is in his element in the forest, druidsm was his calling, unlike some of the Mooonguard and other highborne who turned to it because they couldn't continue magic, this was his original calling and love. He wouldn't see or understand the restlessness in others.. but then he had a point too, using magic again was not ultimately necessary to their survival, they had other means, other magic (i.e. nature), but the main reason is because the risk and the Legion's return is too great. It is irresponsible, i.e. reckless to take such a risk just because you want to use arcane again - hence the accusation of "still addicted" - which I don't believe was the case, but I can see how they would think so.

It doesn't help as well that you're the group that brought the demons in, so your suggestion might not have been trusted. Now, enter the crux.. if the Nightborne, or Farondis had been there, powerful magic users who definitely had no part in bringing the legion to our world, but fought it from the outset (like the Farondis had done), had they survived and been around, and the ones to suggest this.. it might have been a different story.

Illidan was insistent the Legion would return anyway.. we know that he knew the magic of the well wasn't the goal, but the other night elves don't know this, secondly they doubt his loyalty, they call him the betrayer because he recreated the well, killed guards trying to stop him, so automatically assumed he did so to get the legion back - hence THE BETRAYAER - we know he actually wasn't, WoTA trilogy actually lets you know this, but not even his brother believes him - it's hard to isn't it.

So the night elves view the WEll of Eternity returning not as the boon that would save and restore them, but the thing that makes the return of the Legion possible.

Well we know how the story plays out, the night elves are 100% successful in defending the well of eternity from the Legion returning, but the Legion return anyway. This time, it's the humans, who the high elves taught, unaware of the true danger to using magic in a post sundering world - because the high elves are hiding the shameful secret of the past, and assume, that humans, like all elven children would take the strict warnings and listen to their children. Nope, humans are excited and curious and wanted to learn more, they practice an experiment outside school hours and without supervision, and eventually the demons are drawn, which leads to the council of Tirisfal being formed to stop them, and the high elves sharing only with the council members, leaders of the kirin'tor the true danger. THe human leaders decide not to tell the masses, fearing a backlash against magic, which would result in a reversal of the statuses they have and enjoy. So they hunt these elements in secret appointing a Guardian. You know the story.

As a Nightborne you could easily be of the persuasion that the High elves are responsible, and it's the night elves that suffer again. True the whole world suffered because of the 2nd invasion, high elves too, lost a lot, remember that tHe lich king was a legion device.

The kaldorei were right, but also wrong. You would and could easily see yourself as a Nightborne to have done a better job at convincing the Hyjal group of magic. But hey you're addicted.

Your use of magic has warped and destroying you anyway, it's nothing to be proud of either because of the sickness, you actually rely on the efforts of the kaldorei to heal you and save your people, Which happens. With the legion already returned, those northern kaldorei don't ban or restrict magic anymore, the only reason that was the case was to keep the legion away. Now it's back well, they use it and work with it, and don't try to stop the Nightborne either. Tyrande wants the nightwell destroyed, not magic stopped - there is a massive difference, the problem is not using magic, it's the reckless abusive way the kaldorei were using magic that has twisted them so in Suramar, this isn't good, the Nighwell is the soruce of the demons interest in her city of birth, the means for them to complete their plans, and the source of her people's arcane corruption. She has 3 very good reasons in interest of life and saving the planet for the Nightwell to be destroyed, she knows how the culture of excessive abuse, gone from the kaldorei, not present in the their highborne order, was and how disgusting it was, no more of that. Elves who use magic must do so responsibly and in balance to avoid addiction and recklessness.

However many people take Tyrande's statement to mean she hates highborne and magic users - which is quite the leap for the very same person who keeps helping them, and actually opened the door for the Shen'dralar, helped Kael'thas too, was the one who rescued Darth'remar etc..

Looking at the entire history- what do you think a good nigthborne would feel? Do you think he is proud of the abusive use of magic that twisted his people as such and would therefore hate and oppose the Kaldorei who had good reason to ban it and had to live in that sort of life without it? No, he would likely admire them for doing so and not ever dream that he could or would do the same. He loves it too much. HE understands balance now, and with addiction cured, his love will not lead him to state he got to once before.

I like to think at the end of the day, they'll take sides on who they sympathise with most. prior oto 7.3.5, one marked difference between Nightborne and Thalassian elves, is they are extremely proud of being kaldorei, and all things kaldorei, they don't view themselves as some different elf group that's not kaldorei, they view themselves as the pinnacle of what being kaldorei is, the natural progression of this lofty state. Look at the terms Valtrois uses to describe her night elven heritage and those who gave their lives in Tel'anor (night elves btw), it's a different mindset. Understand that the blood elves might view the Nightborne as a different elf, and thus don't impart their kaldorei dislike to them like they do anyone in the original night elven visage, but that's not how the Nightborne view themselves, you have to understand the prejudices blizzard inserted into the high elves, in particular the blood elves to enhance the faction rivalry and conflict, the things they soft-retconned to provide more tension, the exile now becomes a huge event that is the source of the current hatred, even though it was 7,000 years ago, and high elves are pretty much good guys who orindariy would have let it go, especially ifor a night elf populace that no longer bans such things. But it is Warcraft, blood elves are ont he horde and horde have to hate alliance.

The Nightborne, who were not created to join the horde or with mind in being on the horde, you notice have no such night elf phobia, in fact, the opposite, night elf philia, this is because this is a night elven group based on night elven culture, they're not going to hate themselves. Also notice how much night elf /Nightborne corporation happens in 7.0, not a whiff of blood elf, because joining the horde, perhaps even being playable was not on the table at the time this was being written nor was it the intention. however we see a shift when 7.1 has certain sections re-written, and yes if you were following it closely, Tyrande's role was re-written, replacing Vereesa for example, a heavier Elisande-Tyrande dialogue was completely removed - now blood elves enter the fray, and by 7.3, Nightborne are shoulder to shoulder with them, not with the night elves in a remarkable shift, none of the Nelf storylines or acquaintances are continued - Farodin drops off the scene, the Moonguard have no further interaction, the val'sharan refugee druids and priests - no further interaction.

All that stuff plays no further role, it's like the Nightborne have amnesia, or starstruck by the beautiful blond elves - but just the blood elves, not the high elves.

Unfortunately, we get no more insight into the Nightborne, their greatest insights were 7.0 and all largely Kaldorei focused and supporting, so we don't know how or what of the attitudes blizzard will change or fix. regarding them.

why mention this? because this might help us determine who's view point they would take. I would lean towards them taking the blood elf viewpoint as they are now allies with them, but they are night elves too, so perhaps they see things differently. Given their current friendsit might be easy to think they view the night elves vbanning arcane magic as insane, but it could also be viewed as phenomenally brave and self sacrificing - some might call it foolish, but anyone with wisdom and empathy I think would find it admirable too, given that this is an arcane loving race, whose entire existence was steeped in magic, and now they have to cut it off, and actually faithfully do so for 10k years, before being able to breathe again.

Kudos to the Darnassians huh, this is why they are the best of the Kaldorei groups.

True, but that's because classic "Night Elf" society was built on an INSANELY rigid caste system. You were either Highborne (arcane magical, graceful, aristocratic, arrogant) or you were "Night Elf" (savage, aggressive, forest dwelling, nature magical, still arrogant).

There were other castes. The books often mention "the lower castes". Primarily because the highborne caste were the highest of the nobility. This means that there were other nobles that weren't highborne.

When you look at what caste means, you can come to realise that other slike te Priests would be considered a caste, a powerful one too, that has the affection of the masses, being the Order of the Goddess herself, and for all their love of the Queen, we know it is the priesthood that led the charge in the conquest of Kalimdor, it is from the priesthood that arcane magic is learnt and mastered. The society may value those that give it the greatest progress and the most and best conveniences, but then the ones that move their hearts the most and command the respect of all the people, while not the "highest" in terms of political power - they are certainly not insiginifcant or savage.

Secondly, there were now "savage, aggressive" night elves - there is no record of such. From day one the night elves are described as benevolent, and in the pre-sundering era, the aggressive ones would be the Moonguard and Night warrior fighters making ground.. not the "forest dwellers" - being druidic or forest loving doesn't make you savage. The shapeshifting druids now know, was a thing post-sundering, those of the craft pre-sundering were not that advanced yet.

Most of the lower castes had reverence for the wilds, but were also arcane wielders and users. People find that hard to understand, but it isn't, they assume that a forest lover or dweller automatically hates the arcane.. they have no basis for that (they have assumed so purely because the long vigil night elf culture which was very nature orientated banned the arcane, that's why they think so, but the arcane is not banned because it's the opposite to nature or nature users hate it, it's banned because using it will bring back the legion their race is responsible for, and it would mean the destruction of the world, this is why they live without it in that post sundering era) pre sundering, you can love the wilds or have reverence for the wilds and be a great magic user, loving the arcane too and loving the Goddess Elune for all things that exist, for life is good and full.

A person studying druidic arts would not be an arcane user, but that doesn't mean he hates the arcane, it's just not his purview, likewise an arcane user wouldn't hate nature at all, however mastering that magic is pointless to him. Same with an Elune devotee, her calling is the Goddess and her edicts, ways and precepts, wasting time studying nature like a druid or the arcane for the thigns mages use it for is not her purview - to them the arcane was very much involved but for other purposes - they weren't using their magic for building things, creating things, advancing society physically, but the spiritual well being, healing, defense if necessary ofc, discipline, etc - morality and stuff liket hat.

Malfurion Stormrage was a clever magic caster, all night elves learnt spell casting alongside reading and writing, from an early age. The Nightborne children you see are not some exception new state of arcanisation, it is a reflection of how things were back then. When Malfurion starts studying druidism under Cenarius, and we see him in action later in the series, there are several times he casts spells that aren't nature /druidic intrinsic spells, this includes how he disrupts the Well of Eternity that causes the implosion and sends the demons back. We may divide spell work into those distinct catgegories because of gameplay, in a more realistic setting, like in a novel or book, it is not as clear cut.. for example when you get to the end of the sundering, do you know what is actually banned is using the Well of Eternity to cast spells? not just casting any arcane based spell? You discover that the night elves at that time, using the well was the only way to do magic. After the implosion, they hadn't realised most of the magic was released into the atmosphere.. this is why WC3 manual tells us they set it loose in the world.

Using the well for magic makes Azeorth light up like a beacon to those with "magic eyes", in the twisting nether, it become like a bright burning star every time, this is how the Legion eventually find Azeroth - so they ban this. When they say arcane use is banned they're actually meaning using the well of eternity to cast spells like night elf society did to do all the great mage works - this is what is banned.

They can't ban a Moonkin using Moonfire or an animal whose natural ability is an arcane one. Which is why I suspect spells like starfall, moonfire etc while arcane spells are not considered a ban thing because they are drawn from the stars and moon, so it's not Azeroth or the well that lights up, - but you can't really do much with that anyway - who knows, I don't know if those spells were only used in WC3 once the legion was returned.

but there is a lot of nuance, and you have to realise that gameplay mechanics are the structure that allows you to interact in the game world and achieve things, they're not actually all or strictly what a class can actually do if you think of it in normal terms.

Thing is, the "playable" Night Elf faction basically NEVER included the Highborne. The "savage" version was your entire exposure to them in WC3, with the exception of the Naga, where you are told "This is what happened to the Highborne who followed Ashzara". And then your basic introduction to them in WoW lore was "Oh yeah, we BANISHED the entire lot of them who survived the Sundering across the sea where they basically became an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FACTION known as High Elves. Whoops.

So yes, the reason you can't play your Aristocratic, Arcane Magical Night Elf Highborne is because other than the Shendralar exiles, they basically don't actually EXIST any more in Night Elf society: the Night Elves essentially eradicated them. So you can blame the Night Elves for that.

If you can accept the existence of the Nightborne, you can accept the existence of the Shen'dralar, just because a thing seems unlikely to you doen't mean it isn't planned or intended.

Furthermore neither stops them from doing new things. Afterall, night elves pop out of nowhere literally in WC3, to a wc2 loving elf, you'd be like WTF, it's new, but these are the original elf, and the main elven rac, it sifro thse all arcan wielding and nature wileding elven magic derives and these are the oldest wielders of it.

Why would it surprise you when Eldre'thalas show sup and a city of Highborne, albieit in much decline are still around? Was this never intended? Did you read the WtoA trilogy book and see how huge the role of the arcane is in the night elves and the essence there of

Does it not frame and characterise the entire reason for the arcane-absent era amongst the hero group ? If one era was highly arcanised, but then it became highly nature, what makes you think that that is the end of the progression of the night elves, and the long vigil state is the final state? Any information given to confirm this? Actually no, the opposite, because not only a highborne introduced in the current timeline when Wow is released in 2004/5, but then they join the night elves, and we see them playing an active role, furthermore in the night elf expansion, 2 of the 4 zones are based on the arcane side of the night elves, a huge portion of the activity is dedicated to the demon hunters, a night elf origin thing.. what is that telling you?

Why would you assume that the HIGHBORNE aren't a part of the night elves?

2. Now even if they aren't friends, if they're neutral factions or enemies or bestiary like the Naga, they are still part of the night elves. Remember satyr and naga are still night elf related lore and bestiary, they just enemies to the ones you play. Dreamwardens, Moonguard, Farondis and Ravencrest are all still night elven and are around, some of them are undead, some are ghosts, some are alive, some are magical arcane, some are druidic magical, some are martial - it's still night elven.

Regardless of the form it is in, whether friend or foe, it still is.

If you are looking at the whole night elf race, which I tend to in many of my discussions, you are not just looking at the playable affliated ones, but everything, neutral ones, enemy ones, - Nightborne, Naga, Satyr, Undead Night elves whether Dark rangers or Ravencrest - it's all night elf lore, part of that bracket. To say it or the arcane isn't there or meaningful because it wasn't part of the playable night elves in WC3 or in classic-wotlk doesn't stop any of that from being true.

Whether they end up becoming exactly like the Pre-sudnerign civlizaiton, or like the long vigil one, or end up becoming like the best of both, having cities and forests, great highborne magic wielders and druidic nature wielders - that's neither here no there, adt eleast as far as those two categories are concenred iit's still night elven.

If they decide to introduce a new element that's neither arcane or nature, or Elune concerned, or even fel - that new element would now also be part of the night elves.


they're not locked to one thing you know.

[Tanaria]

Ravenmoon and Mace need to stop obsessing over Suramar.

It's not the night elf home, it never will be. Blizzard are writing the night elves in a direction that is focused on their worship of Elune. That's what is in question here. Tyrande can easily go to the Broken Shore and enter the Tomb of Sargeras to commune with Dejahna, but as far as the inner city of Suramar - it's no longer her home. It's Thalyssra's home and is aligned with the Horde. It's a Horde city and it's labelled as such in accordance to the common lore on wowpedia. Priestesses and Druids have had their faith questioned and it's something that neither they nor we have ever seen before.

The direction will still be a Priestess/Druidic lead, because otherwise, they are simply Blood Elves/Nightborne 2.0. People need to stop pushing the Night Elves into a position that is a direction for the other elven races. One can easily argue that Blood Elves, Nightborne and Void Elves are all quite boring, as they are all extremely "Arcane" focused and weaving magic, whereas Night Elves are different.

[ravenmoon]

I did read it. It painted the night elves as victims, despite their actions being the ones that first brought the Legion here. It talked about their generosity and selflessness, even as Tyrande is regaled a hero after murdering wardens binding Illidan and Maiev a hero after murdering highborne when they rejoined their kin in Darnassus. The quote you gave said "the least the Shal’dorei can do is welcome the Darnassians back home regardless of what the horde say, the very lest, and if they refuse, they should lose Suramar." That's delivering an ultimatum and resorting to force if the other party doesn't agree. That's not a parent scolding a child. That's a people threatening to invade another people.

If I were demanding a none elven race owes the night elves, I would understand this, but you do understand ALL elves around today are culpable for the legion, so it doesn't play a facto, the Darnassians are the least culpable, the Naga are the most culpable. of those still in elven form, the Thalassians shoulder the greatest degree of blame having originated from the group that was in the palace.

this is why it's not mentioned or considered here, cos it's an inter elf matter

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p.s. I will respond to the rest of what you write later

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Ravenmoon and Mace need to stop obsessing over Suramar.

It's not the night elf home, it never will be. Blizzard are writing the night elves in a direction that is focused on their worship of Elune. That's what is in question here. Tyrande can easily go to the Broken Shore and enter the Tomb of Sargeras to commune with Dejahna, but as far as the inner city of Suramar - it's no longer her home. It's Thalyssra's home and is aligned with the Horde. It's a Horde city and it's labelled as such in accordance to the common lore on wowpedia. Priestesses and Druids have had their faith questioned and it's something that neither they nor we have ever seen before.

The direction will still be a Priestess/Druidic lead, because otherwise, they are simply Blood Elves/Nightborne 2.0. People need to stop pushing the Night Elves into a position that is a direction for the other elven races. One can easily argue that Blood Elves, Nightborne and Void Elves are all quite boring, as they are all extremely "Arcane" focused and weaving magic, whereas Night Elves are different.

You need to stop obsessing ion trying ot prove night elves have no right , claim , need or desire, or justificaton to Suramar, or any great night elven city, to come or from the past, nor question their right or mastery of arcane magic. They have it, they're good at it, and none of your arguments prove that your blood elves and nightborne are more powerful or intrsinically better wilders, and more knoweldgeabel, that's just in your head cos you know, you want you think your football club is the best and everyone else sucks, so you would argue to no end about it, doesnt make it true.

Directions change all the time. Night elves changed from a 100% arcane using society to several different ones, one of which was a 0% using one, that also changed again after WC3,

the dgeree of maic use will vary on the story in one group or the tohers, what you must see is that teh arcane, nature , Eluen, it'sa ll part of and in the night elf race and story and they all have played and play big roles. Whether you like it or not.

Oh and your nightborne, they're a night elven based group btw. Never forget that when you want to think that night elves have nothing to do with the arcane.. if you don't want me to argue.. say night elven druids have nothing to do with the arcane or night elven priests, i'll point out to you their spell work says otherwise, but perhaps what you mean to say, is arcane practice is not a part of those Orders. To which I would agree.

[Tanaria]

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You need to stop obsessing ion trying ot prove night elves have no right , claim , need or desire, or justificaton to Suramar, or any great night elven city, to come or from the past, nor question their right or mastery of arcane magic. They have it, they're good at it, and none of your arguments prove that your blood elves and nightborne are more powerful or intrsinically better wilders, and more knoweldgeabel, that's just in your head cos you know, you want you think your football club is the best and everyone else sucks, so you would argue to no end about it, doesnt make it true.

You can try and keep denying what happened in Azshara, but the facts speak for themselves.
They are seriously, lame.

Human Magi could produce tech that would actually be in competition with the Blood Elven Magi.
Draenei Magi, the same.

Night Elf Magi do have knowledge on the arcane, but that's all they seem capable of boasting. Putting words into practice, we all see a different story.

Hell, even Blood Elven Magi can beat Nightborne tech, as per the Sunreaver Mage in Suramar who knew how to handle the Nightborne's Construct.

And they have no claims to Suramar anymore. They can't post ultimatums because they are not in a position to take on Nightborne, HMT and Blood Elves alone and that's just regarding those that would answer Suramar's call for aid...no doubt the other Horde races would come and help as well. They lived in the far West, away from the city for 10 millennia. The Nightborne's claims, therefore the Horde's claims, outweigh any ancient heritage the city has. What is important is the here and now, and Suramar stands alongside it's cousin city of Silvermoon and the Horde's capital city of Orgrimmar.

[Mace]

Too many loose ends in the story as well, after an expansion where all they did was getting kicked around by the almighty horde, the Night elves are left hanging (A footnote that the eternally see-sawing warfront is canonically an Alliance win doesn't help much), with a vague promise that maybe, in several years, if they don't change their minds by then, and development resources permitting, we *might* get some follow-up on this whole "Stuck slumming it on the streets of Stormwind"-business.

Agreed, the defeat of the Legion, like total defeat, is the biggest event for the night elves as this is what destroyed their kingdom, and dominated ALL their existences, whether city or forest for 10k years - characterise how they lived, isolated - responsible for the fractures, all the issues and problems and is gone. Magic addiction also solved, Illidan and the demon hunters, not traitors, never betrayers,

This is huge, the psychological, societal, emotional change this would bring.

It would easily redefine the night elves, or rather restore their original destiny and mandate - no longer now dedicated to destroying (DHs) or preventing (Darnassians) the Legion (or having to live as outcasts or independent city states (Highborne and Nightborne) etc etc.

Instead we jump straight to the war of thorns, as if the Legion was some humanity threat the night elves helped their allies, and it's now back to normal..

It's like break neck writing speed, and not pausing , looking at it from a vantage point.

The lead writers so focused on individual plots and stories, not grasping the consequences and impact the very races and groups they designed are based on. I must admit they do a lot, but they also often miss. Or at least don't share with us if they do.

[Tanaria]

Maybe because the Night Elves aren't the only race that Blizzard should focus on? They choose who they want to focus on and go from there.

Like I said, you and Ravenmoon have these grand ideas - but only works in a pre-sundering, only-Kaldorei setting.

[ravenmoon]

You can try and keep denying what happened in Azshara, but the facts speak for themselves.
They are seriously, lame.

Human Magi could produce tech that would actually be in competition with the Blood Elven Magi.
Draenei Magi, the same.

Night Elf Magi do have knowledge on the arcane, but that's all they seem capable of boasting. Putting words into practice, we all see a different story.

Hell, even Blood Elven Magi can beat Nightborne tech, as per the Sunreaver Mage in Suramar who knew how to handle the Nightborne's Construct.

I'm not enying anything but in yor prejudice or rather love for your faction of elves, you have mis-characterised and misunderstood the meaning of events that have taken place and are unable to see things as they actually are for the night elves.

I mean, classic example is that you still believe the night elves in Azshara levelling zone are actually shen'dralar - common sense should tell you otherwise. If you didn't know, you've been told who they are waht they've been doing - does it make sense to you those are shend'ralar? Ofc it does, cos in your head night elves are weak magic users because blood elves are superior tha'ts all you see.

Even the developers outright said in a tweet, the ones in Azshara ARE NOtshen'drlar, yet you still go on about it. Completely ignoring the context too, night elf mages have just recently started training in magecraft for the first time in 10,000 years, there only a few weeks into training, are those ones going to be great masters able to go toe to toe in combat with a seasoned mage who's been training for years and fighting wars? Come on. ....

But you're all too happy to believe their rubbish, is it out of conceit? Arrogance? Pride?

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Maybe because the Night Elves aren't the only race that Blizzard should focus on? They choose who they want to focus on and go from there.

Like I said, you and Ravenmoon have these grand ideas - but only works in a pre-sundering, only-Kaldorei setting.

Sweetchicks, no one is saying blizzard shoudl only focus on night elves, but a night elf fan is going to want quality stuff for the race he/she likes, he's not going to want to keep putting up wtih crap, weak portrayals, knocking on, and he's not going to like when all the best things and greatest disapys are instead given over to the faction he is not a part of.

What do you expect a night elf fan to ask about? horde development? More focus on the horde? Humans? Gnomes?

Please !

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Night elves deserve nothing. They left Suramar willingly and there is no place for them.

Yes, so every soldier who leaves his home to go fight an enemy to save his home has no right to return there, and there home is no place for them anymore, because they left willlingly.

Right !

[Tanaria]

I'm not enying anything but in yor prejudice or rather love for your faction of elves, you have mis-characterised and misunderstood the meaning of events that have taken place and are unable to see things as they actually are for the night elves.

I mean, classic example is that you still believe the night elves in Azshara levelling zone are actually shen'dralar - common sense should tell you otherwise. If you didn't know, you've been told who they are waht they've been doing - does it make sense to you those are shend'ralar? Ofc it does, cos in your head night elves are weak magic users because blood elves are superior tha'ts all you see.

Even the developers outright said in a tweet, the ones in Azshara ARE NOtshen'drlar, yet you still go on about it. Completely ignoring the context too, night elf mages have just recently started training in magecraft for the first time in 10,000 years, there only a few weeks into training, are those ones going to be great masters able to go toe to toe in combat with a seasoned mage who's been training for years and fighting wars? Come on. ....

But you're all too happy to believe their rubbish, is it out of conceit? Arrogance? Pride?

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Sweetchicks, no one is saying blizzard shoudl only focus on night elves, but a night elf fan is going to want quality stuff for the race he/she likes, he's not going to want to keep putting up wtih crap, weak portrayals, knocking on, and he's not going to like when all the best things and greatest disapys are instead given over to the faction he is not a part of.

What do you expect a night elf fan to ask about? horde development? More focus on the horde? Humans? Gnomes?

Please !

And them not being Shen'dralar is supposed to make things better, is it?

If they are generic Highborne, then the case is much, much worse.
If all Lorekeeper Amberwind can do is produce outdated constructs, and she is a Highborne night elf, then they have serious problems.

And what has the Shen'dralar ever done, which has benefiting a war-setting, after joining the Alliance?
They let the Alliance know of a Horde invasion on Darnassus, but then Jaina took over the situation.
Mordent casts arcane missiles at Horde players in the Warfront and then teleports away. (Yeah, cause Humans, Blood Elves and High Elves haven't already done things like that before.)
Two opened portals when Sylvanas invaded and then got killed, by her, soon afterwards.

And don't say to me "they've been scrying on the world for 10,000 years" as that is headcanon that you two have believed. Myself and somebody else have looked thoroughly into that, through all sources, including pre-cata quests and their is absolutely nothing that states this. If you have something that is different, I ask for the fifth time, please link it.

[LilSaihah]

Not gonna lie it seems kinda lame if your headcanon of Night Elves is 'they're like normal elves, but purple'.

Night Elves should be literally Doom Guy. You should rip and tear all magic users.

[ravenmoon]

It seems like you're writing druids out of the society, yet the highborne that are less prevalent in the Alliance night elven society (having only been a part of it since Cataclysm and only have shown to have a minor influence within the Alliance). That doesn't even touch on the fact that the Shen'drelar had strong relations with Horde adventurers before rejoining the Alliance (similar to how the Zandalari used to have strong relationships with the Alliance before the Catalcysm removal of those reputations). If we're going to talk about the Alliance society of night elves, it has to be representative. You can't have just druids, just Sentinels, just highborne, just priestesses, and just citizenry. You have to take all of those into account.

.

Not at all, nothing of what I'm saying about it is incorrect, the thing is many confuse the druids witht eh Night elves, and don't know where the two separate and when you're talkinga bout night elves who are druids or druidic organisations.

See it all the time, pointing out that the druids are their own thing is no t dissociateing the druidic element in the night elves.

There is a distinction in the society and the druids. This is what were are presented with. People see the druidorganisations and they think this is the night elves..but its I not the night elves here acting, ti's the druids, just that many of htem are night elves, often there are taruren and others, and it is specifically class and class function related, not race related.

I have to correct people because those people are the ones that think the druids and night elves are synonymous. They are not. But i'm not over writing anything just because i'm focusing on one aspect, People here are trying to make it as ift eher is nothing more to night elves than druidism, ofc I must disagree with this because it is incorrect. I main a night elf druid, and actually I like this aspect of the night elves more than any other, including highborne and magecraft. But I won't stand by and say nothing when they're wrong.

Now do you interpret my statement of liking druidic aspect more than any other to mean I don't like the others, specifically the highborne and mage? You'd be wrong, because that's not what I said is it. Turns out I do actually quite like the highborne, arcane and civilization side of the night elves, I like the fantasy that too, and I find it fascinating that the night elves have such contrast within them. It's like they are a race of extremes, they do fel stuff to the extreme (DHs) , they do arcane stuff to the extreme (as seen in Highborne, Moonguard, re-sundering) they do nature stuff to the xtreme (as seen in the druids, long vigil culture) - it makes them distinctive to me.. add to the fact they're a night culture.. I'm like..oh. .that's interesting too, with a star and moon focus - two things I like - that focus is part of their druids, their priests, their arcane culture and mages too - it's a racial thing - the night, the moon and the stars.

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Not gonna lie it seems kinda lame if your headcanon of Night Elves is 'they're like normal elves, but purple'.

Night Elves should be literally Doom Guy.

They are the original elves - Elvishness is defined by the night elves. What you shoudl be saying really is it feels kinda lame if your headcanon of High elves is "they're like normal Elves" - the night elf is THE NORMAL ELF.

Why do you think the lore gives him ALL the aspects of ELves, MAGICAL arcane, Nature, ranged fire power, beauty , perfection, fel mastery - becuas this is what ELF is supposed to embody, naturally he will have more things in him than other elf groups because other elf groups are more focused on particular things. They are not the complete picture because they are off shoots.

WHen you go to the trolls, the Zandalari have every aspect of the troll sub-species and off shoots, because they are the original, it's exactly the same with the night elves. Which is why you have Highborne, priests, druids, demon hunters, rangers, sentinels etc - all the things that are core to an elf are present and a large part of the Night elves.


So it is weird to think of them as not being elves.. cos literally if you cut most of hte magic out and just focus on the forest, that is not what elves in warcraft are about. The Night elves and all their story has so much to it, magic, cities, arcane, nature, forest, a goddess, fel - it is the heart and source of the elves.

I think it is lame if your view of night elves is that they're forest elves, not night elves, and there is nothing more to them.

Therefore, I don't think there is anything normal normal about them. Their arcane lore and history is intense, more intense than the blood elves, so is there nature lore and activity. i.e. all the normal things of elves are taken to extreme in them. This is extreme is the normal standard of the elf race, meaning the lesser versions in other factions are a dilution. Because they are what elven norm is.

[Illusions]

reads thread title

yep, that's a ravenmoon post.

To answer - nope, Hyjal should become Night Elves' capitol if they (Blizzard) wishes to put 0.001% effort into it. You can make a really awesome and unique city that sprawls across the roots of Nordrassil, a place that's likely more close to heart to most elves than the Highborne.

And I'm sure it can have a more 'sophisticated' corner for the Arcane users - their acceptance is rather vague after Mordent Evenshade seems to be a smaller commander, but only him, iirc there's not really mages going around in the warfront, and we should be careful writing too much of our own headcanon to fill the void.

I don't disagree that the Nightborne should feel some hardships, but Blizzard rarely updates old content, so I'm quite sure they'll stay in Suramar for a very long time, if not forever. I'd much rather see them reclaim the city completely and make it usable by RPers (and give Night Elves Mount Hyjal completely for a new capitol so they'd be 'equal' in number or w/e).

You and a few others have pushed very hard for your own skewed idea of Night Elves, but I'm not sure if you realise it's not really the correct idea / it's just one small faction of the Elves that won't work for the whole. Tyrande was quite disgusted by the flippant Arcane usage - and that's in Legion! - happening in Suramar, so I don't think most Night Elves would even want to return to Suramar. Most of Suramar itself is perverted by Arcane anyway. If Night Elves want a location on Broken Isles, Val'sharah is perfect for it. But we're all in Hyjal, so Hyjal it is.

[LilSaihah]

Why do you think the lore gives him ALL the aspects of ELves, MAGICAL arcane, Nature, ranged fire power, beauty , perfection, fel mastery - becuas this is what ELF is supposed to embody, naturally he will have more things in him than other elf groups because other elf groups are more focused on particular things. They are not the complete picture because they are off shoots.

It doesn't though, the lore explicitly says
"Night Elves don't do magic. They kicked that out of their society millenia ago because it blew up the entire continent."
"Night Elves don't consort with demons. They hunt down, imprison and/or murder any Night Elf who consorts with demons."

Because if you have perfect elves they're fucking boring. If elves were perfect, they'd still have a treehouse; it got burnt down because elves needed to do something because they were fucking boring.

I dunno if we're talking about the same setting even. This is a setting in which one of the playable races is "orcs but with tanks". Make a badass race or get out.