A decent MMO plagued by some serious problems that make it unplayable in the long run

[Dartz1979]

Final fantasy 14 is alot better than world of warcraft or any other mmo there is lots and lots more content to do and yes they do need a materials ui tab cause theres alot of stuff that overflows bags i know i got maxed saddlebag and banks but story and gameplay i still have it better than other games.

[lollerlaban]

"This isn't complex because I do what other people who figured it out tell me to do!"

You are proving his point. If you need outside help to figure something out then there is a complexity to it that you are trying to avoid. You can try to downplay how high that complexity is but it is still there.

Except there's nothing complex about it, not sure how you guys can't fathom that

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Final fantasy 14 is alot better than world of warcraft or any other mmo there is lots and lots more content to do and yes they do need a materials ui tab cause theres alot of stuff that overflows bags i know i got maxed saddlebag and banks but story and gameplay i still have it better than other games.

What are you even talking about, there's barely any content whatsoever. It's a fucking joke when 4 bosses is supposed endgame for over 6 months, how is that lots of content? Finding the perfect glamour for limsa catwhore roleplay is not content

[Hyral]

Except there's nothing complex about it, not sure how you guys can't fathom that

As I had pre-emptively told you since that kind of reply from you was obviously coming: "You can try to downplay how high that complexity is but it is still there." Your actions prove it.

What are you even talking about, there's barely any content whatsoever. It's a fucking joke when 4 bosses is supposed endgame for over 6 months, how is that lots of content?

I don't believe that's ever happened, not that it matters. In a game like WoW that only focuses on instance and mob grinding yeah, encounter count is the only way to measure content. This isn't WoW. FF has more diversity in content for people to do besides just killing mobs, all of which you will just try to downplay as things you are not interested in so no point in listing it.

Though ShB seems to be cutting back on everything lately compared to previous expacs.

[Delever]

As I had pre-emptively told you since that kind of reply from you was obviously coming: "You can try to downplay how high that complexity is but it is still there." Your actions prove it.



I don't believe that's ever happened, not that it matters. In a game like WoW that only focuses on instance and mob grinding yeah, encounter count is the only way to measure content. This isn't WoW. FF has more diversity in content for people to do besides just killing mobs, all of which you will just try to downplay as things you are not interested in so no point in listing it.

Though ShB seems to be cutting back on everything lately compared to previous expacs.

I mean wether you like it or not a lot of content boils down to character progression in order to generate player interest. Having content outside of that is fine as there will always be players who enjoy it.
But please enlighten me on How FFXIV really has a lot of content for people who enjoy progressing their character? Literally all I ve been doing is my weekly reclears and then an expert roulette for the tomestones. Once you cap tomes its done. Theres nothing to do as a battleclass to further progress and its been like that since ARR. I m not saying go the WoW route and make expansion specific progression that you lose later but at least add a new system. Like something similar to M+ for dungeons. Something challenging that you can do as a battleclass even for fun. Palace of the dead was one thing but it was kind of uninspired. Still fun though when it came out. HoH was a PoTD reskin with some improvements. It needs more than that. We need something that affects your gameplay more impactfully. Look at torghast for example thats in development right now. I m not one to shill for WoW as FFXIV is currently my main game but I m not sure if its gonna stay that way. Torghast looks fantastic. And its such a nice new way of both providing a new fun gameplay element while also having it be meaningful to your character progression and to the fun side of things.
As of the latest alpha build you have one mode that lets you go hunt for legendary materials thats going to be more limited on a daily/weekly manner and then you have another mode where you can go balls deep in torghast and play it to your hearts content to hunt for transmogs, mounts etc. And all that while having amazing roguelike elements that make it substantially different not only when playing it as a different class but also as a different spec.
Visions of nzoth was a first nice step to that but it really isnt all that different between classes and specs other than the standard different gameplay of the classes but its still challenging and fun.
And this is a major expansion feature!! Something like THIS is what ALSO should be getting marketed when SE launches an expac. So far the start of Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers has been 100% identical in what they bring to the table with absolutely no new form of MAJOR gameplay feature whatsoever.
Two new ex trials, one new raid (normal/savage) and new dungeons. And then you have to wait 3-4 patches into the expansion for the chance at getting something remotely resembling a new gameplay feature or the reskin of an old feature.
I dont know about you man but for both me and a lot of people this has started to become an issue. Their initial formula worked to get the game started and funded for two expansions but it just doesnt anymore.
I ve seen a tremendous shift in community from ARR to ShB and if thats the community they re marketing for then by all means but to me it just doesnt look like the success and money that the game has made has been translated to better quality or bigger quantity of content given along the line. It just seems like the game is being used to fund other SE projects and the budget given for its development has stayed exactly the same.
In fact, content has been getting cut, supposedly in favor of getting new stuff. If the new stuff is ARR shiva pumped up to 80 with slightly different timers for her mechanics so shes not an absolute joke by modern standards then no thanks I ll have my 2 dungeons per patch back.

[Xilurm]

If you're going to try and tell someone how to play, do it as politely as you can, and don't be passive aggressive, don't let them use it against you. These are the same people who cry out for freedom of speech but block you on twitter the second you have an opinion that isn't the same as theirs. You can't have a discussion with nutjobs.

[Delever]

You can make pvp not suck a fat donger without trying to make it fit esports mold.
Making it actually playable would be a nice start with making the tickrate faster than once in a week.

Also for the love of god this. I cannot count the number of times I ve been screwed over by the tickrate in both pve and pvp. But pvp is where you see its most glaring issues where you re playing a melee class, chasing someone literally being right behind their ass, spamming your button only for the animation to start and get repeatedly cancelled over and over and over again because the game has your position registered way behind what you re actually seeing. Fun times.

[lollerlaban]

As I had pre-emptively told you since that kind of reply from you was obviously coming: "You can try to downplay how high that complexity is but it is still there." Your actions prove it.



I don't believe that's ever happened, not that it matters. In a game like WoW that only focuses on instance and mob grinding yeah, encounter count is the only way to measure content. This isn't WoW. FF has more diversity in content for people to do besides just killing mobs, all of which you will just try to downplay as things you are not interested in so no point in listing it.

Though ShB seems to be cutting back on everything lately compared to previous expacs.

It's funny you can say that WoW ONLY focuses on instance and mob grinding, yet FFXIV does literally the same except they fail miserably at it. Eureka ring any bell? And again since you can't fathom the concept, many buttons doing the same thing is not complex. Outdated mechanics that are now pruned away is not complexity, stop kidding yourself.

Honestly, tell me something that FFXIV delivers on that isn't either 3 content patches late when it's a major feature for the expansion and isn't abandoned afterwards.

[Delever]

It's funny you can say that WoW ONLY focuses on instance and mob grinding, yet FFXIV does literally the same except they fail miserably at it. Eureka ring any bell? And again since you can't fathom the concept, many buttons doing the same thing is not complex. Outdated mechanics that are now pruned away is not complexity, stop kidding yourself.

Honestly, tell me something that FFXIV delivers on that isn't either 3 content patches late when it's a major feature for the expansion and isn't abandoned afterwards.

I m glad to see there are more people here with this exact issue. Expansions literally ship with no major feature whatsoever and they have IDENTICALLY the exact same content start.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You can make pvp not suck a fat donger without trying to make it fit esports mold.
Making it actually playable would be a nice start with making the tickrate faster than once in a week.

My point still stands. Blizzard can't seem to strike a good balance between PvP where combat lasts 5 seconds and combat that can last 15 minutes. It's either stupidly easy to chunk someone instantly, or it's a game of chicken where you wear them out over the course of an entire episode of TV hoping they make a mistake before you do. Neither game has an ideal PvP situation, but I have a lot more fun with the PvP model of FFXIV where neither gear nor level matters, and it's still possible to win against any class using any class as long as you are the better player, rather than having hard counters.

Ultimately the issue of PvP in WoW vs FFXIV is an issue of opinion, of taste. Because both are about equally sub-optimal in their own ways. If I'm in the mood to PvP, I'll play a first person shooter or a MOBA. And if I really just want to play an unbalanced piece of garbage where I can feel good about myself playing an OP class that can kill anyone with low effort, I'll play a classic WoW arms warrior.

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Except there's nothing complex about it, not sure how you guys can't fathom that

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What are you even talking about, there's barely any content whatsoever. It's a fucking joke when 4 bosses is supposed endgame for over 6 months, how is that lots of content? Finding the perfect glamour for limsa catwhore roleplay is not content

The big joke here is players who seem to think the only content in the game is end game raiding where the sole purpose is beating hard bosses for high level gear. An even bigger joke is the people who think anyone who disagrees with their assessment of content only does glamour. There's a plethora of skill based activities in FFXIV you can do that isn't raiding. Go solo deep dungeons. Collect every Triple Triad Card, beat every NPC, win the triple triad tournaments. Do blue mage savage content. Get a Gen9 chocobo with max star rating on all stats through racing and breeding.

There are so many ways in which you can advance your character to be stronger in other activities of the game, but because it's not raiding, it's dismissed. But again, that's a big reason I like FFXIV as well. There's a lot of solo and group content I can do to advance my character outside of raids, where in WoW once you've finished the tier you have... pet battles? Achievement hunting? Have fun with that 16 month lull in content between an X.3 patch and the next expansion.

There's a reason why the FFXIV population exploded a couple of months after BFA dropped. A reason why new server infrastructure was required to handle the incoming player load. There's a reason why, a year after the FFXIV expansion launch I'm still getting queues to log into my home server when that has barely ever been an issue before.

WoW players who hate FFXIV and think it's a weeb game will continue to play WoW and do their damndest to shit on FFXIV, and those people existing is an inevitability. These are the same people who will continue playing WoW while proclaiming it "currently" sucks and proclaim it was good "once upon a time". One thing I do see is an ever more vehement cry out from the WoW players trying to discredit FFXIV, but that's largely because most of their friends and guild mates have hopped games and never came back. Maybe if they think they say FFXIV sucks on enough platforms, their friends will come back?

Sure, you'll see a surge when Shadowlands launches. But it's going to bleed back to FFXIV when players see that it's the same old WoW with the same old 20 year old graphic engine, the same old soulless dev team sponsored and run by Activision, and that nothing will have changed for the better from BFA to ShL.

[Azerate]

What first job is by far the longest. After your first with the armory buff i can do 1-80 in a week end. In like a week or two if i dont even try and just do two roullette every day.

I do its called msq and pvp roullette. Considering i have almost all jobs at 80, i know how to get my xp lol. MSQ and PVP roullette last night for example was half of 78-79 and 79-80 on my dragoon. Consider this, in this game you dont need alts to try anything. Once something is leveled, its leveled forever anyway. Its even easier to get to the new content on your "new" jobs. I havent played wow in a while, they probably made it faster to level alts, but the thing is once your so called alt get anywhere its weeks of farming to even get to the point where you can realisticly do anything decent and sometimes its still feelsbad because they added their stupid infinite xp carrot chasing.

Yeah. Basically if you want to "powerlevel" an alt job, you're screwed. The only feasible way to do it that doesn't involve grinding mundane repeatable quests (whatever they are called, I forgot) is to do daily roulettes only.

SE doesn't screw around when punishing people and the playerbase knows it. Something that would be tongue in cheek in WoW, or just about any other game, is a punishable offense in FF14. Like the person in the screenshot, I almost never communicate with people in the game anymore. I've no infractions against my account, but some of the stuff people get nailed for are pretty petty.

I'm quoting this as a point of reference, I know there's been a lot more posts on this issue in this thread.

That aspect is something I had not encountered at all during my time in FF14, because a) I didn't really do much group play outside of roulettes with my 1 friend, and b) I'm not rude nor toxic, so GMs being overly punishing for that is no issue for me. In anything, this would probably be an argument in favor of FF14 for me, but then again, it can't save the game from suffering from major problems.

The behavior many people think is acceptable towards others on-line boggles my mind honestly. I was in AD like 2 days ago, we had a hunter and the tank asked him to do the hunter skip on the middle pillar. At first it seemed he failed it because he froze the mobs instead of kiting them all away. The very first reaction from the tank was calling the guy "idiot". Then it turned out the skip actually worked, and they just got over it and got back to talking as if nothing ever happened. It's really weird to me that people resort to using expletives and insults towards others so quickly and think that it's fine. I mean, would you ever call someone an idiot in real life because they spilled cola on your table? Or any kind of similar situation? The real problem is the mentality that you are entitled to calling people idiots/morons/retards (or worse) and they should just be okay with it, get over it, or maybe even be thankful for your insightful constructive criticism. If this kind of bs is not tolerated in FF14, all power to them. Doesn't make the game good, but it's a step in right direction.

I've been considering playing FFXIV as I've heard it's a lot better (YMMV) than WoW. And I actually LIKE that garbage like DPS meters aren't technically allowed since I Find those to be part of the reason why WoW is so toxic. But they do seem to be a bit too... I can't think of the word, when it comes to reporting. Like you can't tell someone to move out of fire, because they may get offended and report you. I get reporting someone for being your typical rude WoW asshole talking shit about someone's DPS or performance, but actually telling someone to say interrupt (are those a thing in FFXIV?) or move out of the bad shouldn't be reportable; rather it might be reportable but anyone who looks at it should dismiss it.

That alone has me a bit skeptical to try the game, because rudeness shouldn't be allowed but constructive criticism should be able to be done without fear of reprisal.

No mate. DPS meters are tools that help you improve, track your performance, as well as compete with your friends in a friendly manner. People who are toxic about dps numbers will be toxic regardless, they will always find something to whine about and insult others about.

Now for that last part - do remember that these are the people who got punished themselves giving those accounts. In their heads they may "just be telling someone to start interrupting" but in reality it probably sounds like this: interrupt you f...ing idiot. As I said above, in WoW people genuinely think that this is a somewhat neutral statement and that other players are supposed to just accept being called that by a complete stranger on-line.

1. Yes, the combat is clunky... until level 40-60, depending on your class. Is that still a problem? Yes. It makes it hard for new players to get into it. It feels somewhat slow and tedious, only pushing a small number of buttons to do damage. But then again, that is something EVERY MMO does, including WoW and every other MMO on the market. Small number of buttons. The real problem is the slowness here. And yes, while I agree that it's a "problem", it doesn't stay a problem. Do some savage raiding, do some ultimate raiding, and I can tell you if you can tell me the combat still feels slow and clunky, I can at least know that you didn't do savage/ultimate.

No mate, it's not about your level, the amount of skills you have, the difficulty, or whatever else. It's the mechanics that are clunky. There is absolutely no fluidity. You are just regurgating the same argument many others have used, which completely misses the point. If you take WoW, there's plenty of classes with like 4-5 buttons to press. They are fluid, dynamic and feel good. You can have 1 button to push and that 1 button feeling good to push, but if it feels bad to push a button, giving you 20 to push doesn't make it feel better.

The greatest irony in all of this is that WoW has been straight up shamelessly copying features, mechanics, and systems from FFXIV for a long time now. Used to be that WoW was the gold standard that everyone copied, but these days, you see FFXIV do something, then everyone, including WoW, does the same afterwards.

Play whichever game you enjoy the most, but there is one game that has become the objective gold standard of MMOs these days, and it certainly isn't WoW.

You can believe that if it makes you feel better. FF14 is nowhere near close WoW's gameplay and will never be IMO. Not because of lack of ideas, inferior content, but because of the lackluster combat engine.

People are overhyping and overrating FF14 simply because it's an MMORPG that isn't WoW that isn't going under, which is an incredible feat in this genre. Which game is better is a subjective thing, and which game is more popular is something we'll never know because we don't have the official sub numbers for wow. There are surely no "objective gold standards" for mmos, and if there were, ff14 surely wouldn't be that.

[Hyral]

I mean wether you like it or not a lot of content boils down to character progression in order to generate player interest.

There are people who literally only play WoW to get mounts, pets and glams. You and I may not understand it, but for some reason I've run into a lot of them who don't care a bit about pve progression, their character progression is getting all the collectibles they can.

But please enlighten me on How FFXIV really has a lot of content for people who enjoy progressing their character?

I think I've confused you. I said it doesn't. FFXIV isn't a PvE end game focused game and ShB has neutered it even further in that aspect by cutting things left and right. What I've said is there's a variety of content besides just PvE character progression and that only focusing on that aspect to judge a game works on WoW because WoW focuses and excels at it, but FFXIV doesn't seem to even try to compete in that area adding things beside it. Your interest in those things not withstanding.

It's funny you can say that WoW ONLY focuses on instance and mob grinding, yet FFXIV does literally the same except they fail miserably at it.

It doesn't though. That is the crux of the problem. FF is not a game focused on raiding like WoW, they are not competing with each other in that aspect.

Triple Triad, Gold Saucer GATEs, Chocobo Racing, Deep Dungeons, Sightseeing Log, Housing, actually involved Crafting/Gathering/Fishing (that is so banal that you apparently need a guide to help you do it ). Just a few things I can do in FF if I ever feel like it that have no counterpart in WoW except maybe Chocobo Racing I guess when DMF is up, but DMF is only up one week out of a month. Torghast is being added as a much improved version of Deep Dungeons but that's not in yet right now.

I'm fine with this because on the other hand WoW does have options for people who enjoy character progression instead of minigames that you can't find in FF. Mythic+, World Quests, Visions, Mythic raiding, all things that WoW players seem to enjoy that have no counterpart in FF. To someone like me all those things are boring. I don't care to fill months grinding out whatever AP, cloak, corruption, general RNG system they decide to make so my numbers go up to finally be able to actually have fun. That is not content to me and I enjoy my time in FF more because of it. To WoW player it is content and whatever FF offers isn't interesting. Both things are fine.

Somehow I expect a reply saying those things aren't content because you don't like them and FF should just be WoW.

[Ryzek]

FFXIV is a great MMO. The only thing I don't like is the crafting (Its very well done and I don't want it changed, its just not for me ).

[Cthulhu 2020]

No mate, it's not about your level, the amount of skills you have, the difficulty, or whatever else. It's the mechanics that are clunky. There is absolutely no fluidity. You are just regurgating the same argument many others have used, which completely misses the point. If you take WoW, there's plenty of classes with like 4-5 buttons to press. They are fluid, dynamic and feel good. You can have 1 button to push and that 1 button feeling good to push, but if it feels bad to push a button, giving you 20 to push doesn't make it feel better.



You can believe that if it makes you feel better. FF14 is nowhere near close WoW's gameplay and will never be IMO. Not because of lack of ideas, inferior content, but because of the lackluster combat engine.

People are overhyping and overrating FF14 simply because it's an MMORPG that isn't WoW that isn't going under, which is an incredible feat in this genre. Which game is better is a subjective thing, and which game is more popular is something we'll never know because we don't have the official sub numbers for wow. There are surely no "objective gold standards" for mmos, and if there were, ff14 surely wouldn't be that.

Feels pretty fluid to me. There's also an intense amount of skill required to take that and do the hardest combat in the game. Ultimate and savage fights are a finely tuned dance, where you have to have every GCD and off-GCD done well down to the tenth of a second. When executed properly, it feels amazing. Of course, until you learn your rotation and where to be at in your rotation at what part of the fight, you're going to fumble around and be like "HURRRRRRRR GUESS I BETTER START OVER" and it borks everything. But the fluidity comes with time, same with WoW and any other MMO. People who come from action MMOs will say the same thing. Everyone who starts WoW freshly has a difficult time with the combat at first. You grow accustomed to a style of combat, and moving to something new feels strange. I realize that's not something everyone will easily recognize, it takes perspective and an objective top-down view to see. But at least you use "IMO" because yeah, all of the above is your opinion. No combat ever feels fluid out of the box, it takes practice and muscle memory - unless you've had some experience with the same combat style before in another game.

[Delever]

There are people who literally only play WoW to get mounts, pets and glams. You and I may not understand it, but for some reason I've run into a lot of them who don't care a bit about pve progression, their character progression is getting all the collectibles they can.


I think I've confused you. I said it doesn't. FFXIV isn't a PvE end game focused game and ShB has neutered it even further in that aspect by cutting things left and right. What I've said is there's a variety of content besides just PvE character progression and that only focusing on that aspect to judge a game works on WoW because WoW focuses and excels at it, but FFXIV doesn't seem to even try to compete in that area adding things beside it. Your interest in those things not withstanding.



It doesn't though. That is the crux of the problem. FF is not a game focused on raiding like WoW, they are not competing with each other in that aspect.

Triple Triad, Gold Saucer GATEs, Chocobo Racing, Deep Dungeons, Sightseeing Log, Housing, actually involved Crafting/Gathering/Fishing (that is so banal that you apparently need a guide to help you do it ). Just a few things I can do in FF if I ever feel like it that have no counterpart in WoW except maybe Chocobo Racing I guess when DMF is up, but DMF is only up one week out of a month. Torghast is being added as a much improved version of Deep Dungeons but that's not in yet right now.

I'm fine with this because on the other hand WoW does have options for people who enjoy character progression instead of minigames that you can't find in FF. Mythic+, World Quests, Visions, Mythic raiding, all things that WoW players seem to enjoy that have no counterpart in FF. To someone like me all those things are boring. I don't care to fill months grinding out whatever AP, cloak, corruption, general RNG system they decide to make so my numbers go up to finally be able to actually have fun. That is not content to me and I enjoy my time in FF more because of it. To WoW player it is content and whatever FF offers isn't interesting. Both things are fine.

Somehow I expect a reply saying those things aren't content because you don't like them and FF should just be WoW.

I honestly like side content. However a lot of this content in FFXIV has been dead on arrival. I raised a race chocobo to degree 9 encountering a grand total of 2 players on the way. All the time I was racing npcs. I got into triple triad when it came out and it turned into a win trading shitfest literally 1 week after. Lords of verminion..... no comment, legit the definition of dead on arrival. Majong.... again no comment. Like ok this content exists but most of it has been dead the moment it was added and they update it in the laziest way possible. Triple triad just gets a few cards per patch which due to the nature of triple triad are often stat reprints of previous cards. Chocobo racing could have been great but I dont see anyone playing it and I m tired of racing npcs.

[Dartz1979]

Except there's nothing complex about it, not sure how you guys can't fathom that

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What are you even talking about, there's barely any content whatsoever. It's a fucking joke when 4 bosses is supposed endgame for over 6 months, how is that lots of content? Finding the perfect glamour for limsa catwhore roleplay is not content

Well for starters you can doa lot more on character creation compared to world of warcrafts can't even do much on character creation so yeah...

[Delever]

The big problem with "side content" in MMO's is that it's not 1999 anymore. The charm of, "Doing things in an online world!" isn't really all that charming anymore, everything is online. You can play almost anything you want with friends or strangers online now, in almost any setting you want.

So why play an extremely poorly designed RTS-wannabe, or Mahjong, or some simplistic card game that amounts to a game of "High Card Wins" in a 3x3 grid? Why, when a thousand fully-fledged games of those types exist that you can just go play at the moment you feel like it?

This is why so many people just focus on the core gameplay loop now. Because that's all that MMOs really offer now that you can't easily get somewhere else.

People often blame raid or die mentalities on WoW, but it's really the world and the players that changed. Many years ago I made a comment on this site about players choosing between a "world" or a "game" when playing MMOs. Someone even used it as their signature for a while. But that concept is no longer nearly as appealing, most of us have no use for an "online world" anymore.

Couldnt have said it better.

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Well for starters you can doa lot more on character creation compared to world of warcrafts can't even do much on character creation so yeah...

Well thats about to change soon as the shadowlands character creation additions are actually pretty sweet. Also ffxiv has sliders but admitedly the options when making a character are not really that many aside from hairstyles. The sliders in ffxiv barely change anything compare to games of the past with actual huge slider differences (looking at aion) and for most races you have to pick from 4 different faces and 2-3 types of facial hair. The fact that if I want to be a human in XIV and have a beard I have to choose between pedostach midlander or proper beard but no eyebrows highlander is a proper example of that.
At a first glance the character creation in FFXIV appears vast but lets not kid ourselves its actually not that much. And the extra flavor RP stuff with picking your god and birthdate is forgotten about 10 hours into the game.

[Wrecktangle]

I've been considering playing FFXIV as I've heard it's a lot better (YMMV) than WoW. And I actually LIKE that garbage like DPS meters aren't technically allowed since I Find those to be part of the reason why WoW is so toxic. But they do seem to be a bit too... I can't think of the word, when it comes to reporting. Like you can't tell someone to move out of fire, because they may get offended and report you. I get reporting someone for being your typical rude WoW asshole talking shit about someone's DPS or performance, but actually telling someone to say interrupt (are those a thing in FFXIV?) or move out of the bad shouldn't be reportable; rather it might be reportable but anyone who looks at it should dismiss it.

That alone has me a bit skeptical to try the game, because rudeness shouldn't be allowed but constructive criticism should be able to be done without fear of reprisal.

It's a little hypocritical to not want to be held accountable for DPS performance, but you want to criticize them if they stand in fire or fail an interrupt. Performance is performance, whether it's DPS, interrupts, kiting, CC, etc. You either are for the concept of holding people accountable (like an adult, not a petulant child), or you're on board with FF14's methodology of you can't make any comments on their play without fear of repucussions.

However, these story of "I asked someone to do mechanic and got reported" are pure bullshit. I spend a bunch of time helping sprouts with mechanics and how to handle stuff, and never had a talk with a GM.
But then, if their way to help is "omfg just move out of the fire you <insert whatever is offensive>", then yes, you'll get reported, and I think it's a good thing.

Eh I've been told I've been reported countless times. I've never seen a GM Gaol though, although I AM banned from the OF haha. I've kicked players from my groups for abysmal DPS (I'm talking HW level DPS in ShB with no deaths). I've kicked people for AFKing through instanced content. I've called people out on it and while I'm not rude, I don't sit there and placate them with sweet whispers and hand holding. I've called people out for joining phases of learning content that they clearly aren't ready for.

[Hyral]

The big problem with "side content" in MMO's is that it's not 1999 anymore. The charm of, "Doing things in an online world!" isn't really all that charming anymore, everything is online. You can play almost anything you want with friends or strangers online now, in almost any setting you want.

So why play an extremely poorly designed RTS-wannabe, or Mahjong, or some simplistic card game that amounts to a game of "High Card Wins" in a 3x3 grid? Why, when a thousand fully-fledged games of those types exist that you can just go play at the moment you feel like it?

This is why so many people just focus on the core gameplay loop now. Because that's all that MMOs really offer now that you can't easily get somewhere else.

People often blame raid or die mentalities on WoW, but it's really the world and the players that changed. Many years ago I made a comment on this site about players choosing between a "world" or a "game" when playing MMOs. Someone even used it as their signature for a while. But that concept is no longer nearly as appealing, most of us have no use for an "online world" anymore.

And yet one of the most popular MMOs right now is doing it.

FFXIV is not a raid or die game, it's not mean to be one either. You can repeat to me thirty times a day how much you dislike that fact, it's still how things are. The market is large enough to have one MMO that focuses on raiding and one that does not.

Well thats about to change soon as the shadowlands character creation additions are actually pretty sweet.

Oh SL is going to change more than a few things. They are adding Torghast as a much better version of Deep Dungeons, a lot of overdue character customizations that players have been begging for years while in FF we still can't get a stubble like the canon WoL has, and I think they are replacing mission tables with some sort of mini-game. They are also looking into making crafting actually useful and letting you have more input on what you can craft with controlling secondary stats.

WoW is looking to expand a little more beyond its usual laser focus on combat and hopefully that makes FFXIV step it up instead of cut more and more things.

[-aiko-]

FFXIV is not a raid or die game, it's not mean to be one either. You can repeat to me thirty times a day how much you dislike that fact, it's still how things are. The market is large enough to have one MMO that focuses on raiding and one that does not.

So what content is there to do at endgame, exactly, and how is it more than what a game like WoW offers? From what I've heard FFXIV PvP is below average and you tend to only do the story-content once (since you only need one character to do everything).

People love to claim that WoW is raid or die, yet the raiders make up only a minority of the WoW playerbase. The truth of the matter is that WoW offers plenty of content, especially for casual players, and it's the raiders who don't feel like there's enough content to do.

[NatePsy]

My experience a few years ago was with rotations using multiple ranks of the same ability. Since then I haven't been interested enough to come back because that sort of thing is just dumb to me

WoW classes ability bloat never bothered me but FF's did for some reason.