I now have 62% unbuffed haste.

[Okacz]

O'rly? Where did you get this information?

A lot of this is due to ping and player synchronization. That's also tied to the main reason (in my opinion) why Blizzard is still adamant about keeping the GCD change - they want to reduce the amount of information each player can send to the server to synchronize per second. If every ability is being used every 0.5 or so seconds, the data packets are way easier to deal with.

[Tradu]

You knew this was going to happen, you could've gone for other stats.

That's a very funny joke, honestly.

[cface]

I can't imagine how much it will suck to go down to 4-5% when Shadowlands is out. I mean expansion power resets have been a thing, but man this is just going to suck...

I know right. This is why I strongly consider just skipping the 1st season this time. The end of expansion the game feels fast and action packed, and slow and in a betastate at the beginning with the risk of spending months of progress on something you have to abandon cause it sucks.

Also nice to wait a season to see which classes and covenants to completely avoid, and which classes/covenants was hammered way too hard with the nerfbat. Imagine spending 2 months each day on your class, then it's nerfed to oblivion..

[Tradu]

I just want to give you a stunning revelation, so maybe take a chair for a second.

Different specs play differently. Some specs like Destruction, for example, have their spender on 3 seconds case baseline and some other specs simply have massive downtimes at near-0 haste to the point they are sitting there staring at the screen waiting for something to do.

It's completely fine to start expansion with ~30% attainable haste from the get go that goes all the way to 60+% by the end, because many specs simply play much better with nice haste amounts.

I know. I play a lot of different specs and always have. Notice the last sentence in the post you quoted.
The point is to make the "nice haste amount" baseline by just having the cast times etc be shorter by default without needing haste to make the specs play well. Then add a minor amount of haste over the course of an expansion so you don't go from wanting to blow your brains out from Chaos Bolts or Lunar Strikes or being any 1.5 sec GCD melee spec at the start of an expansion to having lots of fun in the last patch or 2.

[cface]

Having over 200% haste in combat is stupid to me and is aggravating my joints so I am for one will be glad to go back down. Though I understand that some people find that "fun".

The button you spam the most you put on scrollwheel down or up, problem solved. And get a proper weakaura or addon that shows you gcd more clearly, and all you have to do is scroll down right before the gcd ends (0.2s), to queue up the spell. Problem solved.

Usually people with only 15% haste spam their buttons so much anyway regardless of haste.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

remember when having multiple stats above and/or close to 50% was normal by the end of an expansion?
now, reaching 35% base of ONE SINGLE stat is super hard without corruptions. also, all your other stats will be super bad.
even without azerite pieces, which do not have secodary stats (which they definitively should have had since bfa launch), i dont think, we would have seen stat budgets that could be compared to what we had before bfa.


i want stat budgets to go back to pre-bfa levels, having about 30% of your most desired stat by the time you're pre-raid geared.

Yeah, I don't understand their reasoning. They did the same shit in Legion aswell (nerfing 2ndary stat scaling for characters, AND the 2nd stat iLvl budget on gear), but had to revert it pretty quickly because ppl hated it. Then proceeded to do the same thing in BFA...



Are we actually hitting "softcaps" for 2ndaries in BFA? Haven't raided Mythic myself the last patch, so I'm behind the gear curve, but from watching streams, it seems like we are still quite far away from the ridiculousness that was the end of WotLK, MoP and Legion, where specs that wanted to, could reach the GCD cap for Haste and still have a shitton of Crit/Mastery/Vers. WoD might have been that way aswell, but didn't raid during HFC and didn't pay attention to what was going on.


That said, there is most certainly a point where "too much of the good stuff" becomes a thing. Shadow Priest with S2M was probably the worst example of this, and that happened in the first tier of Legion.

[Alvito]

Having it slowly wind down as you level to really bottom out when you first hit level cap can be a bit rough.

[enigma77]

Yeah it's gonna suck, like it always does.

Just lower the cast times already, I don't wanna go back to casting Chaos Bolts for 2 seconds WITH Backdraft.

[Tradu]

Yeah, I don't understand their reasoning. They did the same shit in Legion aswell (nerfing 2ndary stat scaling for characters, AND the 2nd stat iLvl budget on gear), but had to revert it pretty quickly because ppl hated it. Then proceeded to do the same thing in BFA...



Are we actually hitting "softcaps" for 2ndaries in BFA? Haven't raided Mythic myself the last patch, so I'm behind the gear curve, but from watching streams, it seems like we are still quite far away from the ridiculousness that was the end of WotLK, MoP and Legion, where specs that wanted to, could reach the GCD cap for Haste and still have a shitton of Crit/Mastery/Vers. WoD might have been that way aswell, but didn't raid during HFC and didn't pay attention to what was going on.


That said, there is most certainly a point where "too much of the good stuff" becomes a thing. Shadow Priest with S2M was probably the worst example of this, and that happened in the first tier of Legion.

This is the closest we've been to Wrath levels of stat capping since Wrath. Warriors in BiS gear are sitting at 90%+ passive haste, warlocks spend most fights over 100%, Fire can passively crit cap(the build isn't good, but you can do it), Feral(and probably others) crit caps during CDs/procs.

[Mozu]

Depends a bit on spec, for example Assassination, Subtlety, WW and Feral play better before they get flooded with resources from more secondaries(or usually external systems like artifacts, legendaries, set bonuses, azerite, essences).

Interesting you say this because rogue is specifically the class I was thinking about when I typed that.

I think rogue is 10x better when gcd is quicker and you can use a ton of combo points, which isn't possible with bad haste / low energy regen. Sitting around waiting to be able to continue a rotation feels awful to me.

[Jastall]

This, this is what needs to be observed. Also most ppl did 10k DPS struggling, but now even a bad player in wow can do 50k single. And AOE sustained close to 75-100k prolly. I dont think we have had such a power increase before, can anyone renember how much say sunwell, ICC or something scaled us? I dont think naxx40 was as bad etc.

It was more or less the same thing in WoD- start at about 25-30K in Highmaul, end at 80-100K, not counting stuff like Arcane Mage cheesing. Keep in mind it also had one less tier than BFA; the legendary ring was just THAT strong.

Legion started us at about 300-400K in EN if memory serves. By Antorus a pretty decent player was at 2.2-2.5M on single-target. Good parses on fights like Varimathras were 3M+.

The power climb has been huge since Wrath most likely, I just don't have the numbers memorized. Multiple difficulties will do that to you, alongside secondary progression systems which took off in Mists with the cloak.

[Tradu]

Interesting you say this because rogue is specifically the class I was thinking about when I typed that.

I think rogue is 10x better when gcd is quicker and you can use a ton of combo points, which isn't possible with bad haste / low energy regen. Sitting around waiting to be able to continue a rotation feels awful to me.

Rogue GCD is fixed at 1 second, haste doesn't change that. And when you have so much energy as a haste spec that you can fill every/nearly every spec, the resource ceases to have a reason to exist at all. Energy specs as a general rule should be slower and focused on spending limited resources efficiently, not a frantic race to spend resources before you drown. People also massively overrate the amount of extra energy haste gives you, most of it tends to come from external sources like sets or essences.

[Mozu]

And when you have so much energy as a haste spec that you can fill every/nearly every spec, the resource ceases to have a reason to exist at all.

Eh, it's more about the ratio between combo points and energy, not energy expenditure itself imo. I think having enough energy for your rotation without having to wait on regen at any point is a big difference than being able to spam anything you want forever. Currently you have a ton of energy regen, but it's not as if you can spam multilate every single GCD and never run out of energy.

Energy specs as a general rule should be slower and focused on spending limited resources efficiently, not a frantic race to spend resources before you drown.

We fundamentally disagree on this "general rule." Energy specs play better (imo) when you're focused on controlling your globals in a way that keeps you from being energy capped thus wasting energy, not sitting around waiting for energy to refill.

[Nhodjin]

Haste should be removed and every class specc should be balanced without any cast speed increase except outside CDs

[enigma77]

Rogue GCD is fixed at 1 second, haste doesn't change that. And when you have so much energy as a haste spec that you can fill every/nearly every spec, the resource ceases to have a reason to exist at all. Energy specs as a general rule should be slower and focused on spending limited resources efficiently, not a frantic race to spend resources before you drown. People also massively overrate the amount of extra energy haste gives you, most of it tends to come from external sources like sets or essences.

This is true not just for energy but for secondary resources in general. As a Destruction Warlock right now you are just spamming Chaosbolt instead of wisely spending your shards when you have a powerful trinket proc.

[Daedius]

I feel like an uber glass cannon right now going all out in Crit and Mastery corruptions for my Arcane Mage... lol

[Thelyron]

Haste should be removed and the game should move to a 0.5 second cooldown baseline.

[Tradu]

Eh, it's more about the ratio between combo points and energy, not energy expenditure itself imo. I think having enough energy for your rotation without having to wait on regen at any point is a big difference than being able to spam anything you want forever. Currently you have a ton of energy regen, but it's not as if you can spam multilate every single GCD and never run out of energy.



We fundamentally disagree on this "general rule." Energy specs play better (imo) when you're focused on controlling your globals in a way that keeps you from being energy capped thus wasting energy, not sitting around waiting for energy to refill.

If you can fill every GCD, you remove the entire purpose of the Envenom buff. The point of that buff is to pool before Envenom, then have a few GCDs of spamming into the Envenom buff and then start pooling for the next burst of action.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Warn everyone you know as well.
One of the biggest complaints about BFA was the opening weeks and your place of power within them, but it was always going to be that way coming off legion's absurd power gains.
BFA is just as absurd if not more with corruption, so be prepared!

Don't get it surprise you.

[Aydinx2]

I can't imagine how much it will suck to go down to 4-5% when Shadowlands is out. I mean expansion power resets have been a thing, but man this is just going to suck...

It's going to be the same as every new expansion launch. Why do you think it's only a problem now? Because corruptions give you way more haste than is reasonable?