Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[Corseth]

I mean, yes? There were a couple ways they could have played her warchief arc. A redemptive one, where she had to step up to the mantle of warchief and the necessary responsibilities of the position caused her to reconsider her ways and means. A "necessary evil" one where she retains her ways and means, using them because she genuinely believes its the only way the Horde survives in the face of a more powerful Alliance. Or evil for the evilz because evil against everyone. At this point it's not in question any more because they directly showed us which way they're taking the arc. I admit personally I find it the least interesting of the ways the BFA plot could have tried to drive her, but it's over now so there's no sense pretending it was a different result!

[Seradi]

I'm 110% sure Actizzard will twist her into a redemption story, like they always do. Mark my words, she does everything to prevent something worst. (and i hate her character, what they did with her, so this is not fanboyism)



This

Good, she's an OG franchise character and racial leader. She deserves better than what they have given her starting from BTS. They never should have taken her down this path just rile Alliance players and Horde Honor bros into a tizzy for "engagement".

[taishar68]

Not only is she evil, she has been so for a long time. Even old school Forsaken fan boys like me (fan in the sense I love my character more so than an interest in the undead in general), have to accept that when the Royal Apothecary started experimenting with the blight and torturing humans, she’s evil. Or incompetent if she didn’t know, and she’s never been intimated as such. Evil is evil, even if it is in a Machiavellian way.

[Nagawithlegs]

Does anyone think she isn't? It's mostly just trolling or getting attention. Even if she has a reasonable motivation (she does) and maybe knows things about the Shadowlands we don't, there's literally nothing that justifies her actions other than some kind of meta knowledge that she's in a video game.

Which would be fun.

[Jetstream]

I mean, there are also those who side with Sylvanas BECAUSE she is evil and aren't in denial about it. I have more respect for those people than the others who side with her.

Bad guys have all the best bits.

[Melusine]

it's more a question of is she evil for the lolz/personal gain or is it for some greater good/the means justify the ends kinda deal.

if only we could hope for a well written answer to that question... but....

Doing evil in the name of good is evil. Important to note, however, killing is not of itself, an act of evil. If you mass murder a village because they are there, that's evil, hands down. If that person is killed by someone else to prevent another village from getting the same treatment, not an act of evil.

[Thelxi]

Well yeah clearly she is written to be. Any ambiguity about her character went out the window with the "morally grey" story.

[Vakir]

Look, you're dealing with a community that looked at a giant grey man with dead, black eyes, with massive spikes all over him. He tortures people eternally, his buffs to enemies in his realm of dominion are called "Torments," millions of people have been unjustly sent to him and punished all the same, he sends worse threats at you the longer you are in his zone, and he is directly collaborating with the primary antagonists of all the other zones. Shades in his style directly interfere with trying to figure out Vol'jin's whole deal in the urn quest. Azshara looked at Sylvanas' motivations and called her a "treacherous banshee" and that she "knows what darkness [she] seeks to unleash." Sylvanas herself states that "all will be fed to the hungering dark." Bolvar, who has been confirmed to have seen in the Shadowlands and knows more about it, states in the features overview trailer that the Jailer is "the darkest of terrors which should never be set free."

ALL this heavy-handed evidence...and then people saw an opening in his chest cavity and saw an orb in the Arbiter's and IMMEDIATELY assumed he was not a real enemy. Those same people somehow think that being a homogenized angel-smurf is worse than Mega Hell so Sylvanas is totes in the right.

You're not dealing with anyone reasonable, you're dealing with contrarians. Or trolls.

I'm cool with people who are down with her because she's bad, albeit I still think Blizzard did her dirty as a villain in terms of quality.

[crakerjack]

I don't think she's evil. Evil would imply her intents are to cause harm and suffering. I don't think that's remotely close to what her intents are. She clearly says in the Shadowlands that she wants to set us all free. Someone trying to free us doesn't come off as an evil person, they come off as a liberator. I think her moral compass is different, but that's why she's able to make extreme decisions for the better of Azeroth. We can discuss speculations and what not, but when someones intent is to set us free, that doesn't scream evil to me. To each their own though, some people are just biased and hate having a story that revolves around her. I personally haven't cared significantly ever since Wotlk ended, so for me it's about hopping on the ride and enjoying the time. I care more now about how the story is told and how we as players engage it rather than the actual lore behind it. Just have cool cut scenes.

[Nagawithlegs]

ALL this heavy-handed evidence...and then people saw an opening in his chest cavity and saw an orb in the Arbiter's and IMMEDIATELY assumed he was not a real enemy.

I think people's hearts are in the right place. What you just said is a heavy implication that Arbiter stole Jailers heart or core... but the thing is that people, in their anger at Blizz, thinks this means that he (and by extension Sylvanas) are not the villains.

Jailer can be a overthrown despot who has a rightful reason to be angry because he was jailed in his own realm by the Arbiter... AND STILL BE EVIL! Sargeras has a very good motivation for what he's doing but he's still evil. Characters being sympathetic or understandable in their motivations =/= they aren't evil.

[Varodoc]

Look, you're dealing with a community that looked at a giant grey man with dead, black eyes, with massive spikes all over him. He tortures people eternally, his buffs to enemies in his realm of dominion are called "Torments," millions of people have been unjustly sent to him and punished all the same, he sends worse threats at you the longer you are in his zone, and he is directly collaborating with the primary antagonists of all the other zones. Shades in his style directly interfere with trying to figure out Vol'jin's whole deal in the urn quest. Azshara looked at Sylvanas' motivations and called her a "treacherous banshee" and that she "knows what darkness [she] seeks to unleash." Sylvanas herself states that "all will be fed to the hungering dark." Bolvar, who has been confirmed to have seen in the Shadowlands and knows more about it, states in the features overview trailer that the Jailer is "the darkest of terrors which should never be set free."

ALL this heavy-handed evidence...and then people saw an opening in his chest cavity and saw an orb in the Arbiter's and IMMEDIATELY assumed he was not a real enemy. Those same people somehow think that being a homogenized angel-smurf is worse than Mega Hell so Sylvanas is totes in the right.

You're not dealing with anyone reasonable, you're dealing with contrarians. Or trolls.

I'm cool with people who are down with her because she's bad, albeit I still think Blizzard did her dirty as a villain in terms of quality.

Yeah. And Blizzard has even said multiple times that the Jailer, and not the Arbiter, is the main villain and central driving force of Shadowlands.

I don't think she's evil. Evil would imply her intents are to cause harm and suffering. I don't think that's remotely close to what her intents are. She clearly says in the Shadowlands that she wants to set us all free. Someone trying to free us doesn't come off as an evil person, they come off as a liberator. I think her moral compass is different, but that's why she's able to make extreme decisions for the better of Azeroth. We can discuss speculations and what not, but when someones intent is to set us free, that doesn't scream evil to me. To each their own though, some people are just biased and hate having a story that revolves around her. I personally haven't cared significantly ever since Wotlk ended, so for me it's about hopping on the ride and enjoying the time. I care more now about how the story is told and how we as players engage it rather than the actual lore behind it. Just have cool cut scenes.

We already know what "freedom" means for her, it means death. She literally says in Before the Storm that she wants to kill the people of Stormwind to "free them from the shackles of mortality". She literally recycles Lich King's quote "All will serve Death, all will serve me."

There's nothing deep here dude.

[Hellobolis]

Doing evil in the name of good is evil. Important to note, however, killing is not of itself, an act of evil. If you mass murder a village because they are there, that's evil, hands down. If that person is killed by someone else to prevent another village from getting the same treatment, not an act of evil.

evil done for good is evil except if its done for good then its not evil?

[Vakir]

I think people's hearts are in the right place. What you just said is a heavy implication that Arbiter stole Jailers heart or core... but the thing is that people, in their anger at Blizz, thinks this means that he (and by extension Sylvanas) are not the villains.

Jailer can be a overthrown despot who has a rightful reason to be angry because he was jailed in his own realm by the Arbiter... AND STILL BE EVIL! Sargeras has a very good motivation for what he's doing but he's still evil. Characters being sympathetic or understandable in their motivations =/= they aren't evil.

...and then we got a new Arbiter model and she sure looks tormented and weakened by said core.

There's a million explanations that are easier than that, including that the Jailer would be more powerful and thus more easily released without said core. I don't think many hearts are in the right place, I think people are desperate because Sylvanas used to be a good character (in quality, not moral alignment) and now she isn't.

[Nagawithlegs]

...and then we got a new Arbiter model and she sure looks tormented and weakened by said core.

There's a million explanations that are easier than that, including that the Jailer would be more powerful and thus more easily released without said core. I don't think many hearts are in the right place, I think people are desperate because Sylvanas used to be a good character (in quality, not moral alignment) and now she isn't.

Feel free to point to a single piece of fiction where a character grows stronger WITHOUT a glowy core of power in their center.

[Selastan]

I don't get how wanting to free the world from death makes one evil.

[Silversorrow]

Evil and all I wish the game would still let me follow her........

[Varodoc]

I don't get how wanting to free the world from death makes one evil.

That's a terrible goal lmao. As much as we all hate to lose the ones we love, death is a necessary part of life. A world with no death would be terrible, as there would be way too many people to feed and so you'd be forcing a lot of innocents to live in misery.

[crakerjack]

Yeah. And Blizzard has even said multiple times that the Jailer, and not the Arbiter, is the main villain and central driving force of Shadowlands.



We already know what "freedom" means for her, it means death. She literally says in Before the Storm that she wants to kill the people of Stormwind to "free them from the shackles of mortality". She literally recycles Lich King's quote "All will serve Death, all will serve me."

There's nothing deep here dude.

Even then it doesn't sound evil to me. Arthas's quote of "All will serve Death, all will serve me." sounds evil because he clearly has intention of having people serve him, almost like a dictator. I'm not arguing that sylvanas is a bad person, but "free them from the shackles of mortality" doesn't scream evil to me. She's intentions and end goal isn't to cause harm, it's to still liberate people. Like I said before, she just has as skewed moral compass and wants whats best for everyone regardless of what they think or feel. Again, we're not arguing about whether she's good or not, I just don't think it comes off as evil. We have to look at intentions here, that's where we'll decide if someone is evil, which clearly her intentions don't come off as evil.

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That's a terrible goal lmao. As much as we all hate to lose the ones we love, death is a necessary part of life. A world with no death would be terrible, as there would be way too many people to feed and so you'd be forcing a lot of innocents to live in misery.

If you can't die, why would you need resources like food/water? You're applying too much bias. You're assuming because there's more people, that we'd then need more resources which is blatantly false. Immortality literally answers all your what ifs. "Forcing a lot of innocents to live in misery" is 100% a speculation.

[Nagawithlegs]

The "no more death" goal always needs to keep in mind that it involves the Jailer busting out of his prison and doing something. Likely ruling the universe.

Is it a good thing if there's no more death but everyone's a slave and living in a dark maw hell?

[Swnem]

I was saying that back when the "fans" were trying to flame everyone who dared to say it. But, anyone without bias could've seen it coming since the Wrathgate.
She wasn't fooling anyone. Well... anyone looking that is.